21 replies to this topic

[Aesthetech]

Getting rid of that ridiculous gimmick was certainly nice and made me look forward to playing with gauss again. Please find a way to balance gauss that does not involve:

1: A silly gimmick that does not sync with the firing style of any other weapon in the game.
2: A cooldown duration that is just as silly.

If it's broken enough that it can not be fired 'normally' then fix the issues that cause it to be broken. A skilled player can easily overcome the gimmick and if the weapon was already broken it will continue to be broken. On the other hand if it's not broken when the gimmick is overcome then it's not broken to begin with and thus does not need the gimmick. It just steepens the learning curve of an already high information game for new players and adds nothing to depth at higher levels of competition.

Thanks.

Edited by Aposiopesis, 15 September 2016 - 12:02 PM.

[RighteousDude]

Gauss should be broken. It supposed to be a very good, very powerful gun.... it should also be super dumb to have more than 1.
or fire it at the same time as other energy drawing weapons.
or fire it just before other energy drawing weapons
or fire it just after energy draw weapons....

ballistics that use a Slug and Cartridge should not draw energy.
If there's concern that Ballistics using slug and cartridge would then become superior, turn down their initial damage, have them deal damage over time instead.
If then the concern is the power of missile weaponry, make them generate more kinetic heat.... because they also should not draw energy.
if then the concern is that the game is too dull, because you can only fire a ballistic with a laser, and a gauss with a missile, make movement draw energy, and jump jets draw energy, and make them as effective as they should be. They need to just hurry up and finish the games mechanics. if every action had an equal and opposite reaction the game would balance itself.... without the need for these ridiculous solutions and absurd values.

[Tarl Cabot]

For the Gauss Rifle, I would prefer that the mechanism used was a double click (click - charging-click to fire) it instead of a click+hold then release.

[Excalibaard]

I respectfully disagree with your statement. The Gauss charge makes the weapon more unique between all the other weapons which are simple point-and-click. This is good for the variety in the game. Also it gives it the right to have the best DMG to Heat ratio in the game even if the DPS suffers (which can be partially remedied with a 5.25s cooldown or something).

The 'gimmick' is essentially limiting the weapon's close range capabilities without a stupid minimum range debuff or something. For the PPCs/LRMs this minimum range is at least justified by lore. Because the Gauss is a weapon that requires 0.75s of planning time, it will do a fine job at range, but is difficult to use in a much more fast paced scenario like a brawl. Even when you get skilled with the weapon, charging it before peeking out, that will be of questionable importance while torso twisting in the firing line of another mech. Removing the charge mechanic would just make it a no-heat long-range high-velocity AC20 that might explode at some point.

Edited by Excalibaard, 16 September 2016 - 06:44 AM.

[Kuaron]

I still consider
a) compatibility with other weapons
lore-wise credibility
more important than a gimmick just fore the sake of uniqueness.

A limited short-range usability is already achieved by a long cooldown and consequentially low DPS.

[1453 R]

The Gauss is plenty compatible with other weapons. Your brain may not be compatible with the Gauss, but plenty of folk use it just fine with a charge cycle.

As Excalibaard said: with no charge, the Gauss is basically a super long range, nigh-hitscan heat-free Supah Autocannon. it is not different in any meanginful, mechanical way from autocannons, and it is numerically better in every respect that matters save tonnage. We all saw what happened with a snapfire Gauss Rifle - it invalidated every autocannon every created by Man and it also utterly dominated the PTS game. The charge turns it into a Gauss Rifle, not a Supah Autocannon, the same way that lasers are characterized by their duration-hitscan behavior, and the same way that most other weapons are characterized by unique behavior.

This game doesn't need snapfire Gauss Rifles. People who want snapfire Gauss Rifles can use AC/5s if they want the range of a Gauss, AC/20s if they want the damage of a Gauss, or lasers if they want the projectile velocity of a Gauss. Getting all three of those while also generating no heat and carrying no volatile ammunition? Might mebbe be a little much for a snapfire weapon.

As has been proven. Again, and again, and again.

[HammerMaster]

3rd thread for this? I'll reiterate. No charge. Done. Kill it. Kill it with fire. Compromise? I challenge you to find a middle ground on this. With charge I refuse to use the weapon.

[Draglock]

I think if they want to keep the charge for the Gauss it should not explode any more in lore the reason it exploded is because it was always charged and ready to fire and only need to wait for a reload of the slug.

Edited by Draglock, 16 September 2016 - 01:43 PM.

[Excalibaard]

How about a toggle like AMS: Toggle the charging mechanic. When toggled on, it will have much higher chance to explode than it does now. when toggled off, no explosion but a charge mechanic.

Since a gauss rifle is dependent on speeding a projectile with magnetic coils, continually keeping the coils charged should also take a fuckton of energy/heat and is thus also incredible in the literal sense of the word.

[Tombs Clawtooth]

Excalibaard, on 16 September 2016 - 01:57 PM, said:

How about a toggle like AMS: Toggle the charging mechanic. When toggled on, it will have much higher chance to explode than it does now. when toggled off, no explosion but a charge mechanic.

Since a gauss rifle is dependent on speeding a projectile with magnetic coils, continually keeping the coils charged should also take a fuckton of energy/heat and is thus also incredible in the literal sense of the word.

If they can't make the LBX guns toggle between slug and shot, I highly doubt they can toggle the entire mechanics of a weapon.

[1453 R]

HammerMaster, on 16 September 2016 - 01:38 PM, said:

3rd thread for this? I'll reiterate. No charge. Done. Kill it. Kill it with fire. Compromise? I challenge you to find a middle ground on this. With charge I refuse to use the weapon.

A'ight.

Compromise: the gun gets an 8s recycle timer, a'la PTS2.

Gonna use it then? I wouldn't. I would vastly prefer a charge mechanic and a reasonable cycle time than a snapfire gun with a stupidiculous cycle time that removes the weapon from use on any platform unable to carry extremely significant complementary weaponry.

Your preference vs. my preference. Which of us is more important, eh Hammer?

Here's the thing you, and everyone else, have yet to answer, man: why does the game need a heat-free hitscan AC/20 with better range than every other projectile weapon and the vast majority of every other whatever weapon?

Edited by 1453 R, 16 September 2016 - 02:11 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Preference exactly. It's all or nothing with you guys. You made no statement of compromise. Gauss is a direct upgrade to mechs carrying ac 20s. Neither here nor there. You pay in weight and minimum range which (Not my fault, but the programmers) is not implemented properly. Thats the anti brawl gauss crowd. Fix minimum range and there is no cry. Why not a 3rd gauss specific reticule with cone of fire under 3 hexes? Done.

I also stated previously on the 1st and 2nd gauss charge thread. I could deal with the high cooldown.

[RestosIII]

1453 R, on 16 September 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

A'ight.

Compromise: the gun gets an 8s recycle timer, a'la PTS2.

Gonna use it then? I wouldn't. I would vastly prefer a charge mechanic and a reasonable cycle time than a snapfire gun with a stupidiculous cycle time that removes the weapon from use on any platform unable to carry extremely significant complementary weaponry.

Your preference vs. my preference. Which of us is more important, eh Hammer?

Here's the thing you, and everyone else, have yet to answer, man: why does the game need a heat-free hitscan AC/20 with better range than every other projectile weapon and the vast majority of every other whatever weapon?

I'd use it with an 8 second cooldown. Give me a Gauss without a charge-up and I'll take a 10 second cooldown if that's all they're willing to give me. I just want to be able to use a Gauss without having to guess if It's charged fully or not. (Colorblind so I can't tell by the colors, and it's a bit hard to judge by the sound alone)

[Kuaron]

Yep, long cooldown would be totally OK and the way to go.

[davoodoo]

1453 R, on 16 September 2016 - 02:10 PM, said:

Here's the thing you, and everyone else, have yet to answer, man: why does the game need a heat-free hitscan AC/20 with better range than every other projectile weapon and the vast majority of every other whatever weapon?

At 1 extra ton, half of dps, less dmg, being easy to destroy and actually exploding unlike ammo
It already got nearly 7s cd which prevents it from being anything but dedicated low dhs sniper weapon and you bettee have std if you put it in st

Edited by davoodoo, 18 September 2016 - 12:13 AM.

[vocifer]

The fact that you don't like or can't handle something, doesn't make it ridiculous, gimmick or broken.

From wiki: "Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge and interaction". There is NO challenge in cahrgeless gauss, neither in increased cooldown, - it would be too easy to use.
Weapons should require skill to use, because it's a damn game. The more variety of skills you demand using different weapon mechanics, the more variety of players will be happy - which is good for MMO type of game.

Anyone should have an opportunity to use their own skill through the weapon that requires it:
- Lasers require holding on target - good for those who can aim smoothly;
- AC's require target leading - good for those who can predict the target/projectile movement;
- the lower the damage - the lower the basic requirement is, the greater is the consistency required. AC2 has higher speed, SL has lower duration;
- Gauss requires a charge-up and timing skills.

If you remove the gauss charge, it will become a skilless weapon compared to AC2, PPC and therefore should be nerfed hardly to the point when it's as good as LBX10 - which is another skilless weapon.

Edited by vocifer, 18 September 2016 - 04:51 AM.

[Aesthetech]

vocifer, on 18 September 2016 - 04:49 AM, said:

The fact that you don't like or can't handle something, doesn't make it ridiculous, gimmick or broken.

From wiki: "Key components of games are goals, rules, challenge and interaction". There is NO challenge in cahrgeless gauss, neither in increased cooldown, - it would be too easy to use.
Weapons should require skill to use, because it's a damn game. The more variety of skills you demand using different weapon mechanics, the more variety of players will be happy - which is good for MMO type of game.

Anyone should have an opportunity to use their own skill through the weapon that requires it:
- Lasers require holding on target - good for those who can aim smoothly;
- AC's require target leading - good for those who can predict the target/projectile movement;
- the lower the damage - the lower the basic requirement is, the greater is the consistency required. AC2 has higher speed, SL has lower duration;
- Gauss requires a charge-up and timing skills.

If you remove the gauss charge, it will become a skilless weapon compared to AC2, PPC and therefore should be nerfed hardly to the point when it's as good as LBX10 - which is another skilless weapon.

Ah, but there is already a challenge to using gauss, and it is a defensive one. It is a fragile, ticking bomb in your mech and extra effort has to be taken to defend it. Now, whether this is sufficient challenge for the weapon is certainly up for debate and it has a number of ways to mitigate it, but it is disingenuous to say that there is no skill whatsoever in using it.

However, my primary concern as stated previously is that the gauss charge is not a nerf to the effectiveness of the weapon, it's just a skill to develop (and a skill that causes further disparity between good players and the bads). Watch any notable good player use gauss and it's obvious they've developed the skill to make the charge a pretty moot factor as far as balance goes, at least at upper levels of play.

It fails at succeeding as a balancing mechanic and instead only serves as a skill acquisition mechanic; this in my opinion makes the charge a failure and as long as they use it as an attempt to balance gauss, gauss will not be balanced. There's a reason it's the only weapon in the game you don't even have a choice to fire more than 2 at a time at present, even with the charge mechanic.

Gauss is simply too powerful in MWO's balance of tonnage, heat, and damage and no skill hump to get over is going to change that in the hands of a skilled player. Charge is a mechanic that does not fulfill its purpose.

There are three simple and effective ways to actually balance it:

1) Increase CD. People didn't like this.
2) Decrease damage. Lore nerds will riot.
3) Increase heat. Lore nerds will riot.

Edited by Aposiopesis, 18 September 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[50 50]

I personally like the charge up, makes a point of difference to the other autocannons and is also handy if you want to hold and cancel your shot.
Plus, if this means there is no restriction on how many of the weapons can be mounted on a mech, then it's better than the magical limit of 2 that was in previous iterations.

In so far as how it works with ED, then I would think that it should draw the energy and hold it so there is no recharge until it is either fired or cancelled.

I would go as far as suggesting that the PPC be changed to use the same mechanic.

[Y E O N N E]

No.

I like the charge-up. It makes the gun interesting to use. Everything else in this game is literally point-and-click-for-confetti, so the charge adds another mechanical step that I get to participate in. It adds just that little bit of excitement.

Pretty much every other shooter ever has some weapon with a hold-and-fire mechanic. Why is it so criminal that this one does?

[FupDup]

RestosIII, on 16 September 2016 - 03:29 PM, said:

I'd use it with an 8 second cooldown. Give me a Gauss without a charge-up and I'll take a 10 second cooldown if that's all they're willing to give me. I just want to be able to use a Gauss without having to guess if It's charged fully or not. (Colorblind so I can't tell by the colors, and it's a bit hard to judge by the sound alone)

For that standpoint, PGI could implement a colorblind mode to make the bar more visible.

I also think the charge sound should be a bit louder.