97 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

RestosIII, on 18 September 2016 - 11:46 PM, said:

I don't mean just with my Adder. I don't poke period outside of an Assault if I know someone is pointing that direction. The mech that got headshot by the Warhawk while hill poking? A Shadow Cat, aka god of hill humping. Don't ask me how I run into people that can snapsbot like that, because I'd like to know the reason myself.

Personally, my main problems with the Added though are it's comparative size (Hunchback IIC being the same size, lol) and something that most of my mechs have in common: it's only basic'd. When I'm talking about balance for a mech, it is almost always without speed tweak, or the doubled basic skills, so poking around a corner takes a bit longer than is healthy for me due to the start and stop. That and my aim is garbage, can't blame that on anything but myself.

Ah, I got the thing mastered, loved it so much, so things run pretty smooth over on my end, with the quirks and modules my UAC20 is just pumping out loads of damage too, got it fully tricked out, radar dep and sometimes seismic too. I also tend to keep my head armor maxed, I don't often run into people that headshot me, but I know the moment I run anything lower than 15 I'm getting two gauss rifles straight to the forehead. Its not the smallest light mech, but its 70% of the weight of a Hunchback, so its size seems about right to me, and all I know is that my hunchback tends to get hit a whole lot easier than my Adder ever has, so that 30% must count for something.

[Trollfeed]

Even slow assaults are so agile nowadays that you have no hope against them with a light if they have any idea about aiming. Ballistics will kill you pretty much instantly and lasers aren't much better.

Just played a match in HPG manifold where cspl cheetah tried to circle my executioner. He was undamaged and I shot at him once, his center torso turned to red pretty much instantly and he died shortly after. I don't even aim at light mech legs anymore if I'm playing heavy or assault if they're close enough as you can pop IS lights faster by destroying side torsos and cheetah slows down enough with losing side torso so it dies shortly after anyways.

Edited by Trollfeed, 19 September 2016 - 12:23 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Trollfeed, on 19 September 2016 - 12:17 AM, said:

Even slow assaults are so agile nowadays that you have no hope against them with a light if they have any idea about aiming. Ballistics will kill you pretty much instantly and lasers aren't much better.

Just played a match in HPG manifold where cspl cheetah tried to circle my executioner. He was undamaged and I shot at him once, his center torso turned to red pretty much instantly and he died shortly after. I don't even aim at light mech legs anymore if I'm playing heavy or assault if they're close enough as you can pop IS lights faster by destroying side torsos and cheetah slows down enough with losing side torso so it dies shortly after anyways.

Your example there wasn't the best, the Executioner is the most mobile assault in the game, more mobile than some medium mechs with the use of its MASC, It also has many arm guns for even better tracking, but I get the idea.

Most loadouts on most mechs can kill lights pretty easy but Dire Wolves (and maybe some Kodiaks) who are running just UACs have problems due to the torso based weaponry and low velocity+stream fire mechanics.

For the most part, light's who try to circle won't win, except maybe Locusts. I have to use cover, attack from rears and sides, hit distracted people, dart between buildings, zig zag, poptart, and more when using lights. An open engagement against a heavier mech, even if you are trying to just circle around it, is usually one of the worst tactics, and at best just leads to an enemy who backs into a wall, forcing you to leave the area but having distracted and slowed an assault for awhile, or if you are crafty and have jump jets, allowing you to jump up ontop of the wall and shoot down on the mech while he is unable to defend.

[Livebait]

This is the last thing I write about the light mech craptastic fair...Its not the weapons strength or weaknesses. Its the maps! ALL maps should be playeable by STOCK mechs only.

Weapons should have class value. No mech should boat 15 small lasers and be under 85 tons, Or carry 6 + LL with no penalty. its all wrong. Its just all weird.

The model is team death match with the new toy. Very lame. PGI, my money for you is gone. My play time is once every few months. That can all change when you get a clue...

Indar Gal drop coming...

[Trollfeed]

Well, there's still people around claiming lights go around dancing through whole enemy teams and surviving and challenging assaults/heavies 1 on 1 and winning easily most of the time.

My personal experiences on both ends are just like you said, unless that heavier mech is only loaded with high mounted torso ballistics or heavy energy weapons, there's no point staying and fighting as you'll just die without doing anything meaningful.

I used my match in executioner as an example for fighting against cheetah because I play my cheetah so rarely so I couldn't remember when I last challenged an assault with it. Better example about light versus assault gameplay would be my match in COM-2D in polar highlands. I spotted dire wolf on enemy back field and decided to go munch on his rear armour. Including my opening salvo I got only 3 clean hits on his back armour before I was forced to disengage because he got backup lasers on arms in addition on his torso ballistics. At least I got him off from shooting my team when we started playing hide and seek on hills after I lost my arms.

[MrMadguy]

As I've already said, this is "Shaman syndrome". Light pilots will always be crying, that their class is hardest to play, requires tremendous skill, gimped and need buffs, while completely noobish Light pilots, like me, will do well in Lights - even better, than in Assaults.





My average match is Assault 'Mech for reference:



Yeah, 132MS, but it's not far from truth:

Edited by MrMadguy, 19 September 2016 - 02:41 AM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Trollfeed, on 19 September 2016 - 12:54 AM, said:

Well, there's still people around claiming lights go around dancing through whole enemy teams and surviving and challenging assaults/heavies 1 on 1 and winning easily most of the time.

My personal experiences on both ends are just like you said, unless that heavier mech is only loaded with high mounted torso ballistics or heavy energy weapons, there's no point staying and fighting as you'll just die without doing anything meaningful.

I used my match in executioner as an example for fighting against cheetah because I play my cheetah so rarely so I couldn't remember when I last challenged an assault with it. Better example about light versus assault gameplay would be my match in COM-2D in polar highlands. I spotted dire wolf on enemy back field and decided to go munch on his rear armour. Including my opening salvo I got only 3 clean hits on his back armour before I was forced to disengage because he got backup lasers on arms in addition on his torso ballistics. At least I got him off from shooting my team when we started playing hide and seek on hills after I lost my arms.

Three clean hits doesn't sound too bad, especially considering some lights could have killed the Dire Wolf in those three hits.

I'm with you, but your examples aren't. Lights aren't going to be going through entire teams without a whole bunch of luck and they only beat heavies and assaults 1v1 with a good bit of cover and a build specifically designed to hunt big game.

Though... on the other hand, some builds are unfit for killing lights, ERLL boats, torso weapon only mechs, various clan UAC, or ER laser build, also anything boating LRMs.

I'm mostly conflicted because I feel its possible to do great with lights and my Adders often are putting out damages in the range between heavies and assaults when I play them. Lights really aren't easy to play, and they aren't really built for fighting fair, but I'd be lying if I said I can't 1v1 assaults and heavies in my light mechs.

That said, I'd die in 1v1s against assaults and heavies who have builds that could handle me. Clan mechs like Hellbringer and Timber Wolf boating just a bunch of ERMLs and LPLs aren't going to be able to handle a skilled Cheetah or Adder that gets the drop on them given terrain in the light's favor. My ACH can jump jet around and use cover to break the side torsos off a Timber Wolf and eventually kill him if he has no support. My Adder with just a little side peeking can blow a Hellbringer's gun torso off in two alphas. My Locust can just infinitely poke some poor LL boat over and over and over again and run off if the person tries to come after me, then repeat.

All of those mechs die nearly instantly vs pin point frontloaded damage though, I stay away from Atlases because I know a single AC20 and SRM6 barrage will end me, I stay entirely out of entire zones if I see someone with a gauss rifle or two because I know it will either kill me or open up a side torso if it can get a good hit on me. I stay out of range of streak boats so I don't get blasted.

This is the thing, Lights suck in a competitive environment where most people have the meta loadouts of frontloaded damage, gauss and PPC everywhere, occasional brawler Atlases, a Light has no chance there. In a common solo queue matches though, they are PUG heros, dodging UAC bursts, spreading long duration laser alphas, rarely facing extremely competent aim.

This is where the whole disconnect is, Lights are like LRMs, they're good against the bad, but against the good they're no more than a minor inconvenience often times.

[invernomuto]

Trollfeed, on 18 September 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

The funny thing is that even with sad state lights are at the moment there's this crowd around clamoring how OP they are and how they should be all nerfed. My favourite complaint was that because locust costs only 1/10th of kodiak, it should be able to only do 1/10th of kodiaks average damage in a match. He didn't see anything weird about how he thought that average damage for kodiak should be 1000 per match. Same guy kept claiming that how lights are easiest weight class to play and more combat effective than any other.

Well, it's not a totally unfounded criticism. In MWO a light mech in skilled hands could outperform an heavy mech or an assault in a 1vs1 engagement.
I do not know how it's in the TT game, but in BT novels light mechs are mostly used agains infantry or in a scout role and they're no match for heavier mechs.
TBH, I like the way the lights perform in MWO, but I do not think it's what we will see the same results for them, for example, in HBS Battletech game.

[Livebait]

Big woop. I can cherry pick too. THERE IS NO REASON TO PLAY ANYTHING OTHER THEN an ARCTIC CHEATER. Its the min /max mech FOMonths. Its not about light piloting. Its about light mech capability. IS has none. Clan ACH yes. Capiche?

[Tapdancing Kerensky]

All light mechs are literally complete garbage except a couple locusts and the arctic cheetah. Discuss.

Also let's count the number of light mech packs in 2016: Zero.

Edited by Tapdancing Kerensky, 19 September 2016 - 02:21 AM.

[Bud Crue]

I always feel like threads like this come down to:

Casual player: Mechs are unbalanced in this game.

Gamer/try hard/ PGI apologist: No. This is a competitive game,and as such all mechs must be of equal value for them to be competitive, therefore all mechs are balanced.

Casual: What? The reality is that the mechs we have are unbalanced...I mean look at the AC vs just about any other light, or the Kodiak-3 vs any other assault...

Gamer: Irrelevant. I can kick your butt in any mech so therefore the game is balanced.

Casual: But this thread...I mean actually look at the AC vs any other light. The AC has everything: ecm, high mounts, speed, stamina, JJ...

Gamer: Again, what the AC has or doesn't have is irrelevant. All lights are equally good in the right hands. All mechs are equally competitive. A machine gun Spider is the same as a Kodiak 3. Just git gud noob.

Casual: Ok. I guess I just don't understand the word balance.

Gamer: Try running the meta and you will do better.

Casual: Wait, what? Why is there a meta if all mechs are equal and balanced?

Gamer: uh..like I said, git gut noob.

Edited by Bud Crue, 19 September 2016 - 03:38 AM.

[Dago Red]

Bud Crue, on 19 September 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

I always feel like threads like this come down to:

Casual player: Mechs are unbalanced in this game.

Gamer/try hard/ PGI apologist: No. This is a competitive game,and as such all mechs must be of equal value for them to be competitive, therefore all mechs are balanced.

Casual: What? The reality is that the mechs we have are unbalanced...I mean look at the AC vs just about any other light, or the Kodiak-3 vs any other assault...

Gamer: Irrelevant. I can kick your butt in any mech so therefore the game is balanced.

Casual: But this thread...I mean actually look at the AC vs any other light. The AC has everything: ecm, high mounts, speed, stamina, JJ...

Gamer: Again, what the AC has or doesn't have is irrelevant. All lights are equally good in the right hands. All mechs are equally competitive. A machine gun Spider is the same as a Kodiak 3. Just git gud noob.

Casual: Ok. I guess I just don't understand the word balance.

Gamer: Try running the meta and you will do better.

Casual: Wait, what? Why is there a meta if all mechs are equal and balanced?

Gamer: uh..like I said, git gut noob.

They definitely can but I've just as often see:

Casual:This [insert mech or weapon here] is OP and kills me every time I face it while requiring no skill to use.

Try Hard: Here's a list of the relative strengths and weaknesses of that setup and potential counters that might work for you.

Casual: No you're wrong or lying and just want don't want to admit that your crutches are OP and get them nerfed!

Try Hard: Explaining anything to you is useless. Que the stream of git gud memes.

And of course given the array of actual imbalances in this game combined with the amount of things that vary in both skill floor and ceiling it really muddies the water on who's being the obstinate *** in any given one of these arguments. Nuance is not popular in internet fights.

[Bud Crue]

Dago Red, on 19 September 2016 - 04:04 AM, said:

They definitely can but I've just as often see:

Nuance is indeed lacking. Yet I still chuckle when the same folks arguing that things are "balanced", are often the same folks insisting that if you want to be good at this game you need to play the best mechs and best builds.

Here's my nuance: To my casual/terribad eyes, an AC is just another light, but 4 ACs in a wolf pack is one of the nastiest things in the game; and 8-10 doing a second wave gen rush in FP is a huge pain in the butt. Is the AC balanced? I have no idea, because I really don't know what that word means in this game.

Edited by Bud Crue, 19 September 2016 - 04:19 AM.

[Dago Red]

Bud Crue, on 19 September 2016 - 04:16 AM, said:

Is the AC balanced? I have no idea, because I really don't know what that word means in this game.

I'll give that the AC has the perfect spice mix of traits for a fast close range jumpy laser squirrel. Now whether or not you think that's unbalanced is going to come down to if you think that's the only role lights are good for.

At the end of the day I consider them more a pain in the butt than a sphincter clinching threat regardless of what I'm piloting.

But yeah anyone who tells you balance is fine as long as you run one of 5 pre approved maximum reward to effort setups should be mocked mercilessly.

Though honestly the resize making most other lights too damn big contributes more to AC dominance than the actual positives of the mech itself. It's at best the one eyed king of a blind kingdom.

[Mechteric]

Livebait, on 18 September 2016 - 08:23 PM, said:

Okay...back to Indar for me.

Terran Republic OP

[Livebait]

Thats my faction LOL, gotta love the dokka

[MerryIguana]

Ice ferret > Cheetah.

Come at me bro.

[RestosIII]

MerryIguana, on 19 September 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Ice ferret > Cheetah.

Come at me bro.

Someone call the men in white. Another one got loose.

[Livebait]

MerryIguana, on 19 September 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Ice ferret > Cheetah.

Come at me bro.

LOL, rodger that...any light is workable. But gravy is cheater. I'm a Commando freak. that should let you know how dumb I am.

[Requiemking]

RestosIII, on 19 September 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

Someone call the men in white. Another one got loose.

Hey, I'd take a Snakecat(Ice Ferret) or a flying snake(Viper) over the cheeto any day of the week. as a matter of fact, I'd take the legend in the mist over the cheeto any day.