67 replies to this topic

[Zakhodit]

Energy draw is a fools errand. It's a waste of time. The answer is already in the game.

PGI, you're not using it right.

Some of you have posted as if you've played the table top game. And if you have, either it's been a long time and you've forgotten or you were six and you didn't know what you were playing to begin with.

The heat in MWO is not the punishing counterbalance it should be. Right now it's just a binary ON (everything is fine) OFF (shut down).

And that is what allows for these meta builds to work.

Since you've forgotten the heat scale, allow me to refresh you.

The top of the scale is 30. On the table, that was an automatic shut down. So in MWO, it's your heat meter hitting 100%
Okay, the turn based game heat sinks worked a little differently than they do in real time. However, players still run their mechs and carry heat. Carrying Heat is what did you in.

Currently in MWO you can carry heat all day as long as you keep it under 100%. And if you do? A momentary shut down that damages your center structure a little bit.

Let's go over the heat scale. Lets see what used to happen when you carried heat for too long.

5 Heat: -1 movement points. You lost movement points. An average Mech lost 20-25% of it's speed because it was at 5 heat. FIVE. Carry heat for too long, and it should slow you down. Meaning that if you're constantly running at 10-13% heat you shouldn't be able to go full speed.

At 8 heat it was a +1 modifier to fire. We aren't even getting warm and it's harder to shoot. If you're carrying heat you shouldn't be able to easily snipe from 1K away.

At 10 heat: -2 movement points: So 30% on your game bar, you should be loosing speed. No more locusts sprinting around firing all their lasers with no consequence.

13 Heat: Harder to fire

14 Heat: Avoid shutdown on 4+! We are just under 50% on the magic bar in this game and we should have a 33% chance to shut down. That will make you pay attention to what weapon groups you fire wont it?

15 Heat: -3 movment points. Or about as fast as you go missing a leg.

17 Heat: Very hard to fire.

18 Heat: Avoid shutdown on 6+! A 50% chance to shut down the mech.

19 Heat: Ammo Explosion avoid on 4+! How many LRM boats are going to sit there and ride the heat at above 50% with the knowledge that they have a 33% chance to blow their ammo? I sure would love to see the guy's face when he's all the way in the back happily spamming the LRMs when he just suddenly blows up.

Some of you damn kids haven't even read this far and you're already typing up your snappy comeback. There is no "Too long, Didn't read" section sonny boy. You have to read the whole book. You've been warned.

20 Heat: -4 Movement points.

23 Heat: Ammo Explosion, avoid on 4+ Shutdown, avoid on 6+. Now you know you're too hot! Fecal matter is about to collide with a rotating blade. Is there any concern in MWO of this happening? No. By all means keep firing away.

24 Heat: Really hard to shoot. I suppose you could add an effect where the screen just gets blurry.

25 Heat: -5 Movement points. AKA: every Assault mech in the game has stopped moving.

26 Heat: Shutdown, avoid on 10+ or an 83% chance you're going to shut down. Again, we haven't hit the bar of 30 yet. If paint chips were your favorite snack, I'll remind you that 30 is equal to the 100% heat bar where you shut down.

28 Heat: Ammo Explosion, avoid on 8+. Or a 66% chance your Mad Dog flushes every thing in the left torso out the back door if you're lucky and have CASE.

Then 30 Heat: Shutdown.

I feel like this is where PGI started. At the top of the list. "Oh. Says here shut down. Okay we'll go with that."

"What about all these other words, below?"

"Meh, Too long. Didn't Read."

Okay, PGI, I apologize. I've had some jabs at your expense. You have done a good job on this game and I have thrown money at it and will continue to throw money at it.

My point is this: why invent an entirely new system to try and make the game fit it's table top origins when you haven't even explored the ways to use the system that made table top players think long and hard before they pulled the alpha trigger?

The threat of random shutdown would make a major difference alone. Carefully fire weapons or shut down when don't expect it. You know exactly when you're going to shut down and that's what allows most meta builds to function.

Random Ammo Explosions. Enough said. Keep her cool or do a live field test of CASE. (Because if you played on the table, the real reason you took CASE was you knew you might run hot and blow your ammo.)

Decreased Movement is enough to keep any Light mech from running and gunning like they do. And it is why no Assault ever gave a light mech a moment of worry.

Harder to shoot is something that can be reproduced in the game and what good do all those guns do if you can't hit.

Please, don't add something that was never a part of the game. Add something that was. Make heat something to be constantly worried about. Not ignored.

Hey, bonus side effect: Gauss Rifles become relevant again! No chance for heat related ammo explosion. And you can afford to fire them a lot. Don't forget that when the gun explodes, it's a bad day in America. (Canada too.) CASE wont save you from that!

[AnTi90d]

Also.. ammunition explosions rocked the cockpit so hard the pilot took damage.

This could be simulated with damage to cockpit structure.

The negative aiming modifiers could be simulated with the reticle shake they invented for firing while jumpjetting.

All the pieces are there, in game and in lore.

[Greyhart]

Yes. Even if they don't go the whole hog on heat penalties making it something other than on or off will be a massive improvement and will work wonders for reducing the alphas.

It seems a no brainer really. They have most of things like reduced speed, HUD problems, cockpit shake already in the game.

Hell test it on the PTS please!

[Curccu]

I skimmed that wall of text, pretty sure I didn't miss much relevant info but if I did correct me.

How do you suggest they implement this 1 round = 10 second thingy from BT? every 10 seconds game checks what is your heat % then one of those things might happen from your list?
or just real time? you shoot 2x cERPPC and all of your ammos go BOOM?

[Amerante]

Curccu, on 20 September 2016 - 04:39 AM, said:

I skimmed that wall of text, pretty sure I didn't miss much relevant info but if I did correct me.

How do you suggest they implement this 1 round = 10 second thingy from BT? every 10 seconds game checks what is your heat % then one of those things might happen from your list?
or just real time? you shoot 2x cERPPC and all of your ammos go BOOM?

You could get 5 seconds delay before the penalties apply, that would give you some room to play and cool.
Or add free 5-10 Heat threshold without penalty, so movement penalty would apply at 10-15 instead of 5.
This was just out of the blue, and if they really put some thought into it, may come up with something.

Edited by Amerante, 20 September 2016 - 05:03 AM.

[1453 R]

Oh my ****ing god, STOP IT.

STOP IT NOW

THERE. IS. A. REASON. THAT THIS GARBAGE HAS NEVER BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

Fire one PPC once in your proposed system, OP. One PPC. ONCE. Do that, and you're losing half your movement on large 'Mechs and getting reticle jitter.

Does that sound like the proper spirit of tabletop BattleTech? Where firing one energy weapon once has you midlining your heat penalties?

Seriously...mein Gott in Himmel, it's like people don't even try to think before they vomit up awful game-killing ideas anymore...

Edited by 1453 R, 20 September 2016 - 05:17 AM.

[MuzMuzMuz]

Yes, I agree with you Zakhodit, As do so many of the old table top guys - but I hate to break it to you - you're flogging a topic that's been flogged to death.

There have been hundreds of threads and posts about the heat scale, most feverishly when PGI first proposed ghost heat to solve the "six PPC stalker" boating issue that was breaking the game years ago - and to my knowledge we've never had anything resembling TT heat capacity, penalties or dissipation. If history proves anything to go by we probably never will.

On the tabletop, you could generate as much heat by running, jumping, firing weapons etc. as your heat sinks could dissipate during a round without penalty. After that the heat went on the scale and penalties became more severe up to a maximum of 30 points overheat where you automatically shutdown (if you hadn't already cooked off),

MWO gives players the entire 30 point scale for free without penalty. It then adds heat capacity per heat sink. It then from the skill tree adds 10% capacity for heat containment on top of that and 10% more for elite (because they where trying to emulate Wargamings financial success and make "World of Battlemechs"). So in MWO we've always had a massive heat capacity on mechs.

PGI never changed this and went ahead with ghost heat. As a nod (or more of a shrug) to all those forum posters shouting "But - Heatscale! Ur doing it wrong!" we eventually got the override button and damage to mech components once the already inflated heat capacity was exceeded.

I'll give an outlying example here of a KDK-5 that would have a heat capacity of 60 on tabletop and has a heat cap at 86.4 elite in MWO - but whereas on TT it would almost be heat neutral, In MWO it overheats in 8 seconds. It may not be the best example of where PGI took MWO vs.Tabletop but I'll post again if I find time to truly go down that rabbit hole.

Cheers,

Muz

[Greyhart]

MuzMuzMuz, on 20 September 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'll give an outlying example here of a KDK-5 that would have a heat capacity of 60 on tabletop and has a heat cap at 86.4 elite in MWO - but whereas on TT it would almost be heat neutral, In MWO it overheats in 8 seconds. It may not be the best example of where PGI took MWO vs.Tabletop but I'll post again if I find time to truly go down that rabbit hole.

Cheers,

Muz

yes but aren't you firing those weapons twice within 10 seconds and in the TT can't you only fire them once in that same 10 seconds?

Really I don't know

[kapusta11]

Thta's not how heat system worked in TT, OP. Read the rules.

[Davers]

Ah yes. I remember my Awesomes shutting down every time I fired 3 PPCs. Oh...wait...no, that didnt happen at all.

[Greyhart]

Davers, on 20 September 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

Ah yes. I remember my Awesomes shutting down every time I fired 3 PPCs. Oh...wait...no, that didnt happen at all.

I'll preface this with "I don't know"

But in TT weren't those PPCs fired over a 10 second period so each could've been fired in sequence with a 5 second gap.

fire 1 wait 5sec fire 2 wait 5 secs fire 3 - round over.

of course highlights the problem of direct translation from TT to FPS.

[1453 R]

Greyhart, on 20 September 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

I'll preface this with "I don't know"

But in TT weren't those PPCs fired over a 10 second period so each could've been fired in sequence with a 5 second gap.

fire 1 wait 5sec fire 2 wait 5 secs fire 3 - round over.

of course highlights the problem of direct translation from TT to FPS.

Irrelevant. In TT terms, those three PPCs were fired at a single enemy without that enemy being able to make any sort of defensive response between shots. Regardless of how you abstract the three PPCs as having been fired, the mechanical truth of the matter is that all three shots were fired at the exact same defenses against a target in the exact same position; i.e. all at once against a single target state.

I really, truly don't know why so many jabbering idiots believe that Chain Fire Forever is "True to the real A BattleTech Game™", but it's really not. Any weapons fired during a single turn in TT were effectively group-fired, as they all targeted the same enemy facing and defensive stats. The only significant difference is that in TT BattleTech aiming was impossible and weapons fired in whatever random off-bore directions they felt like with very little chance of actually hitting the target at all.

Which is an issue no one ever needs to discuss again. Y'hear me? We're not talking about that here.

Anyways. Suffice it to say, the OP's idea for implementation of heat penalties is absolutely horrible and should never be considered in any degree of seriousness. because as Davers said, nobody remembers the time they fired three PPCs in an Awesome from rest heat and instantly shut down.

[Zakhodit]

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 05:16 AM, said:

Seriously...mein Gott in Himmel, it's like people don't even try to think before they vomit up awful game-killing ideas anymore...

Didn't read very close did you son.

I didn't propose any game killing ideas. I just suggested they don't create one.

Go back and read it again and THINK.

MuzMuzMuz, on 20 September 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

Yes, I agree with you Zakhodit, As do so many of the old table top guys - but I hate to break it to you - you're flogging a topic that's been flogged to death.

Indeed it has. But at that point they weren't looking to make something up like an energy draw to fix a problem that could be fixed with ideas from the table top heat system.
I'm not trying to beat a dead horse. Just trying to show there is a way to fix this without making up something new.

kapusta11, on 20 September 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

Thta's not how heat system worked in TT, OP. Read the rules.

If at the end of the heat phase you had heat in those numbers, that's what happened.

Maybe you should re read those rules your self.

Davers, on 20 September 2016 - 06:46 AM, said:

Ah yes. I remember my Awesomes shutting down every time I fired 3 PPCs. Oh...wait...no, that didnt happen at all.

Must not have been playing right then, sonny boy. You could fire all three the first round, but if you cut lose with all three again you'd have to roll to not shut down. Do it a third time and that roll got harder. A fourth? You should go to Vegas with those odds.



Look folks, This isn't about the first ten seconds. Its not about the initial heat. It's riding that heat at 50% or spiking it over and over at 100%. That should cause some serious problems. And no, I'm not suggesting that PGI try and directly translate the TT rules exactly into the game. I am suggesting that there are a hundred ways to take those TT ideas and balance things out with heat. Making a new system is beating your head against the wall when the answer is already there.

Edited by Zakhodit, 20 September 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[kapusta11]

Zakhodit, on 20 September 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

If at the end of the heat phase you had heat in those numbers, that's what happened.

Maybe you should re read those rules your self.

But first you dissipate the heat you've generated by firing weapons, only then it goes to heat scale, if there is any excess heat to begin with.

Hellstar can fire 4 cERPPCs, generate 60 points of heat by doing so, dissipate 60 with 30 DHS it has and zero excess heat will be produced in the process, no penalty, no nothing.

You're suggesting to penalize people for firing single PPC. This is nuts.

[Andi Nagasia]

@Zakhodit,
Are you suggesting to cap the heat at 30 points no more and have penalties starting at 5 Heat?
Cuz if you are I can tell you that it would be gauss waffles all day everyday,

Also do you know what's the current heat cap is in the pts right now? Just wondering,

[1453 R]

Zakhodit, on 20 September 2016 - 07:41 AM, said:

Look folks, This isn't about the first ten seconds. Its not about the initial heat. It's riding that heat at 50% or spiking it over and over at 100%. That should cause some serious problems. And no, I'm not suggesting that PGI try and directly translate the TT rules exactly into the game. I am suggesting that there are a hundred ways to take those TT ideas and balance things out with heat. Making a new system is beating your head against the wall when the answer is already there.

Ignoring your misaimed snark for a moment, here's the real kicker.

What actually counts as "riding" the heat curve?

The way you set your system up, you seem to want to incloude some nebulous, poorly-defined "safe time" in which you're allowed to have heat, but if the heat stays there for long enough you suddenly start rolling for auto shutdown, ammo booms, heat sink failures, and basically just everything in your 'Mech going from "just fine" to "EVERYTHING'S EXPLODING ALL AT ONCE". With no warning, no logic, and no actual safe zone wherein it's safe to operate your 'Mech's weapons as intended.

The way your system works, simply dropping on Terra Therma - just existing on the map - means 'Mechs lose mobility because they're in the ~+5 zone on their heat bars. Again, that is not how tabletop worked, it's not how Jordan wanted tabletop to work, it's not how old tabletop players want it to work. The TT heat scale is a penalty bar for exceeding your 'Mech's dissipation capacity. In a real-time game like MWO?

YOU HAVE NO DISSIPATION CAPACITY

You have to eat every last single point of heat you generate, if only for a limited time, because heat sinks don't magically auto-nullify heat like they do in the TT game. Smart play in TT meant your heat scale never saw a single point of heat at all. That is actually impossible in MWO, outside of things like Scarecrow's system.

But your nonsense up there in the original post? It completely invalidates energy weapons, most SRMs, and large-bore autocannons because firing any of those weapons once means you start rolling heat penalties. That's madness, and it's completely counter to how the spirit of the tabletop game is supposed to work.

So stop it. Nobody wants to roll for ammo explosions when they fire one PPC once from rest heat on Polar. Any system in which it's possible to explode your ammo for doing that, however remote the chance, is a bad system and should feel bad.

[Zakhodit]

Zarking Fardwarks!

Apparently I need to clarify.

This is not my system. I read that heat scale right off the sheet. As in the piece of paper. The actual Battletech Battlemech record sheet printed by FASA in 1998.

I am not in any way proposing that you take this sheet and force it into the game system.

I am pointing out that there is a way to balance the game with the heat using this system as inspiration.

I hope that's enough bold for you millennials to comprehend before you jump to conclusions.

kapusta11, on 20 September 2016 - 07:50 AM, said:

But first you dissipate the heat you've generated by firing weapons, only then it goes to heat scale, if there is any excess heat to begin with.

Hellstar can fire 4 cERPPCs, generate 60 points of heat by doing so, dissipate 60 with 30 DHS it has and zero excess heat will be produced in the process, no penalty, no nothing.

You're suggesting to penalize people for firing single PPC. This is nuts.

Allow me to explain, again.

This is not nuts, you're misunderstanding how the Table Top system worked. You are absolutely correct: Your Hellstar can fire all four of its PCCs and its heat sinks would take you back to zero in the heat phase. Provided you didn't move. Because you're going to just stand there right? Make yourself an easy target? Likely not. You're going to move in the move phase aren't you? Moving is not that much heat but when you're taxing your heat sinks at 60 heat a turn plus two turns of running (Because who only moves at 75% in this game) That after you've fired all four in turn three, you're going to have an issue in turn 4 with heat.

The system was a danger to you if you carried heat. That means that heat bar on your screen needs to be below 10% or you have problems. Currently the game doesn't account for that and PGI would have to make adjustments but the problem of building up heat with no penalty is just not addressed in the online game.

Is it nuts to think that after 40 seconds of firing you're not going to have some heat issues?

Also, your Hellstar isn't going to blow up. There is no ammo so you don't have to worry about it. That's the advantage of energy weapons. Well, was on the table. But you are going to move slower and possibly shut down sooner than you expect in turn 5 and 6 if you don't lay of the PPCs. This is not nuts. It's the best representation of thermal dynamics FASA could come up with in the 80's.

All I'm asking is that PGI use FASA's Heat table for inspiration to create their own representation of thermal dynamics instead of creating something that never existed in the first pace. Especially if the problem the new system is addressing can easily be adjusted by the system that is already in place.

Andi Nagasia, on 20 September 2016 - 07:52 AM, said:

@Zakhodit,
Are you suggesting to cap the heat at 30 points no more and have penalties starting at 5 Heat?
Cuz if you are I can tell you that it would be gauss waffles all day everyday,

Also do you know what's the current heat cap is in the pts right now? Just wondering,

Again, No I'm not suggesting any of that. I'm literally typing out the heat penalties that were on the sheet for the table top game. The purpose is to give an idea of what can be done INSTEAD of creating a Energy Draw system to fix a problem that can be addressed with heat.

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

Ignoring your misaimed snark for a moment, here's the real kicker.

What actually counts as "riding" the heat curve?

The way you set your system up,

Not. My. System.

Still haven't read anything...

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

you seem to want to incloude some nebulous, poorly-defined "safe time" in which you're allowed to have heat, but if the heat stays there for long enough you suddenly start rolling for auto shutdown, ammo booms, heat sink failures, and basically just everything in your 'Mech going from "just fine" to "EVERYTHING'S EXPLODING ALL AT ONCE".

No my young friend, This is not the case at all. That's exactly the binary system I don't want. The problem with the Meta builds is they run for an entire match, building tremendous heat, yet never suffer any penalty other than a pesky shut down. The Table Top penalized you for running hot for a long time.

MWO should also penalize you for running hot for along time. This isn't going to fix the meta builds, because in any game there are meta builds. But this will allow PGI to address some problems with a aspect that is true to the lore and not something made up.

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

The way your system works, simply dropping on Terra Therma - just existing on the map - means 'Mechs lose mobility because they're in the ~+5 zone on their heat bars.

Not my system.

And yes, that's exactly what it means. Heat is a bad thing.

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

Again, that is not how tabletop worked, it's not how Jordan wanted tabletop to work, it's not how old tabletop players want it to work. The TT heat scale is a penalty bar for exceeding your 'Mech's dissipation capacity.

This is exactly how it works on the table top. It seems you haven't played for a while. That or the book itself was Too long, didn't read.

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

YOU HAVE NO DISSIPATION CAPACITY
~and more~

You are completely misunderstanding what I'm saying.



This is my fault. As the OP the onus is on me to be clear and at this point you've gone off the rails, likely due to my error in laying the tracks.



I am not laying out a system for PGI to copy and use in the game. I am laying out a system for PGI to use as inspiration to fix aspects of the game with something that is lore (heat) not something made up new (Energy Drain)



PGI would have to make a lot of adjustments to make this work. Admitted. But they are not outside the realm of possibility. Rather I should say they would have to UNDO adjustments they made when they set up heat the way it is now. Ballistic weapons and missiles had to be adjusted to fit the system they created. And it left Gauss rifles on the floor. Without heat as a real threat and counter balance, Gauss rifles don't even make any sense in this game.

[kapusta11]

Zakhodit, on 20 September 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

Allow me to explain, again.

This is not nuts, you're misunderstanding how the Table Top system worked. You are absolutely correct: Your Hellstar can fire all four of its PCCs and its heat sinks would take you back to zero in the heat phase. Provided you didn't move. Because you're going to just stand there right? Make yourself an easy target? Likely not. You're going to move in the move phase aren't you? Moving is not that much heat but when you're taxing your heat sinks at 60 heat a turn plus two turns of running (Because who only moves at 75% in this game) That after you've fired all four in turn three, you're going to have an issue in turn 4 with heat.

The system was a danger to you if you carried heat. That means that heat bar on your screen needs to be below 10% or you have problems. Currently the game doesn't account for that and PGI would have to make adjustments but the problem of building up heat with no penalty is just not addressed in the online game.

Is it nuts to think that after 40 seconds of firing you're not going to have some heat issues?

Also, your Hellstar isn't going to blow up. There is no ammo so you don't have to worry about it. That's the advantage of energy weapons. Well, was on the table. But you are going to move slower and possibly shut down sooner than you expect in turn 5 and 6 if you don't lay of the PPCs. This is not nuts. It's the best representation of thermal dynamics FASA could come up with in the 80's.

All I'm asking is that PGI use FASA's Heat table for inspiration to create their own representation of thermal dynamics instead of creating something that never existed in the first pace. Especially if the problem the new system is addressing can easily be adjusted by the system that is already in place.

Not an argument, you can chose not to fire one cERPPC (3 of them is still a lot) and move as much as you like.

Heat capacity and Heat Scale is not the same thing. Here, I've made a screenshot from the rulebook, educate yourself.

Edited by kapusta11, 20 September 2016 - 10:35 AM.

[1453 R]

A'ight...

Zak, you seem to be telling us that your OP was mostly "Here's the TT heat penalty chart. Do something with it." Every time someone says the words "your system", you flipp schittes and call everyone whipper-snappers. Okay. You don't have a system, then; you're showing us the TT heat penalties chart everyone is perfectly familiar with.

What do you propose Piranha do with it?

What is the point of this thread, man?

[Zakhodit]

kapusta11, on 20 September 2016 - 10:34 AM, said:

Not an argument, you can chose not to fire one cERPPC (3 of them is still a lot) and move as much as you like.

Brother, that's exactly my point!

To avoid long term heat issues you would have to NOT FIRE one of the ERPPCs

The issue is that in the live version players fire all three until they shut down. Forced shut down is common in the online game. It was a rare mistake in the table top version. Because Heat could RUIN you on the table.

Heat needs to be a bronco that you ride hoping not to get bucked off. Not a pony that stops when your turn is over.

Heat does not punish you. It only limits you. We as players are very good at using limits to our advantage. And if the consequences are slim we will ride that limit hard. But if it becomes dangerous to ride that limit, players will do it less, will have to be smarter about how they play.

That's what makes this game (On the table or online) better than any other game out there. You had to think about what you did. Not just mindlessly run and gun.