67 replies to this topic

[Zakhodit]

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

What is the point of this thread, man?

Don't make an energy draw system.

Use Heat as the determent it was designed to be.

I can't post less words.

[Spleenslitta]

I agree with you OP. It's been suggested several times for years.
I think a less harsh movement penalty and higher heat before ammo explosions becomes a possibility but i do agree.

Here is an example.....shuffle them numbers as much as you want.
40% heat = 15% less top speed, acceleration and torso/arm twist speeds.
50% heat = 25% less speed etc.
60% heat = 35% less speed etc.
70% heat = 50% speed.
80% heat = 75% speed. Slight ammo explosion chance.
90% heat = 90% speed. 33% or 50% ammo explosion chance?
100% heat = shutdown and very high likelyhood of getting blown up.

Again....that's an example.
There is one thing i'm worried about however. Ballistics and missiles.
Except for the ammo explosion chances at high heat there is nothing to help balance energy versus ammo dependent weapons.
I suggest the energy bar gets replaced with the "Gyro Bar". Gyro bar is how much recoil a mech can take from ballistic weapons before the gyro overloads.

Gyro overload can lead to many things but the easiest thing would be crosshair jitter like when you use JJ's.
The more you overload the gyro the longer the jitter lasts. Simple.
As for missiles. I got ideas for that too but that would mean a textwall....a big one.

[Zakhodit]

Spleenslitta, on 20 September 2016 - 11:03 AM, said:

I agree with you OP. It's been suggested several times for years.

I know, I only dig this up now because this Energy Drain is duct tape over a ripped sheet.

Movement penalties are easy to introduce. And yes, they don't need to be as harsh, they just need to exist.

You know exactly when you're going to shut down. A chance of shut downs at medium to high heat will effect how often weapons are fired.

I would go on about A/Cs and missiles but apparently a single page of text is an insurmountable wall of information that cannot be processed! EVER!

Damn Kids.

[Spleenslitta]

@ Zakhodit

Good point about having slight shutdown chances at medium to high heat.
The thing about these kids that cannot read a few extra lines of text annoys me too.
I remember one guy who managed to come up with an idea for how to make single use rocket launchers into viable weapons.
Single use weapons...viable? Yup.

Yeah...he actually did it but i was the only one who commented in his thread because nobody else managed to read more than the title.
His idea wasn't even a textwall.
I manage to writte and read textwalls but so many just read the thread title and take their conclusions by that alone.
Irony is that i got dyslexsia or however it's spelled in english.

[xe N on]

A Battletech TT like system would work like this:

Heat capacity = number of heat sinks x F
Where F is a factor, e.g. 1 or 1,5
Critical heat capacity = 30 (as in TT)

Total heat capacity to instant shutdown = heat capacity + critical heat capacity

So, it is very similar to now. However, the difference would be that the two capacities are weighted differently.
You first consume your heat capacity through heat sinks. In this region you suffer no penalty like speed reduction or similar effects.

After the heat capacity is consumed, the critical heat capacity is consumed. As soon that happens, the mech starts to suffer on side effects.

Examples:
20 STD heatsinks = 20 heat capacity + 30 critical heat capacity.
- You can fire 2 PPCs (20 heat) and would hit your maximum heat capacity without any penalty.
- Fire 3 PPCs PPCs and you would hit 10 points of your critical heat capacity. This would give you negative side effects.

However, in a system like this, the heat values need to be drastically increased for autocannons and gauss, because otherwise Autocannons would be much stronger.

Edited by xe N on, 20 September 2016 - 11:40 AM.

[Spleenslitta]

xe N on, on 20 September 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

However, in a system like this, the heat values need to be drastically turned down for energy weapons, because otherwise Autocannons would be much stronger.

Or a mechanic to keep ammo dependent weapons on even ground with energy weapons. Like my gyro bar idea.
It's so simple too.

[1453 R]

Zakhodit, on 20 September 2016 - 10:50 AM, said:

Don't make an energy draw system.

Use Heat as the determent it was designed to be.

I can't post less words.

All right then, grandpa. Because you keep insulting people rather than get to the point...

What is your plan for "Using heat as the determent (deterrent*, by the way) it was designed to be"?

Because without a proposal, your whole thread is basically you grouching at people for a page and a half about how crap it is that your ammo doesn't explode when you fire one medium laser.

[Zakhodit]

xe N on, on 20 September 2016 - 11:39 AM, said:

However, in a system like this, the heat values need to be drastically increased for autocannons and gauss, because otherwise Autocannons would be much stronger.

Agreed. A lot would have to be adjusted. The Live game cannot be exactly like the table top. However it can be made to feel more like the table top without introducing elements that never existed on the board.

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

All right then, grandpa. Because you keep insulting people rather than get to the point...

I'm done with this troll. I can't make my point more simple. Nor can I force him to read the post rather than just conclude otherwise.

[Spleenslitta]

I feel the fluffy bunny's frustration when he tries to explain his master battleplan to a bunch of kids who cannot read.


Yup. You can safely put 1453 R on the ignore list....i know i will.

[Seddrik]

This isn't table top.


Does that really need to be said?


This is an online, first person shooter.


Need that be said?


When it gets so constricting that people can't shoot and blow stuff up, people will lose interest.


Need that be said?


Evidently it does need to be said... heh.

Edited by Seddrik, 20 September 2016 - 12:33 PM.

[Zakhodit]

Spleenslitta, on 20 September 2016 - 12:20 PM, said:

I feel the fluffy bunny's frustration when he tries to explain his master battleplan to a bunch of kids who cannot read.

You're mocking me... aren't you?

[Spleenslitta]

@ Zakhodit
Hey...you're the one who choose a bear as your symbol it's fluffy.

@ Seddrik
Did you play MWO back in the day when ammo explosions was something to be feared?
I remember the fireworks show when ammo blew up...it was kinda spectacular.
Now we got 10% chance of ammo exploding when it's destroyed. Players don't even need CASE.

Restricting players from blowing stuff up? No. Just making MWO lot's more interresting and more lore like.
Who cares if this is a PC game instead of a TT game. Point of a game is to make it entertaining.
The current version of MWO with Ghost Heat is boring and ED was not exactly impressive nor original.

Seddrik, on 20 September 2016 - 12:33 PM, said:

This is an online, first person shooter.

This is not just a normal online FPS game. It has mechs....big stompy things that should be harder to master.
What we got now is a one click shooter. One click gets either kills or cripples the enemy with loads of pinpoint firepower.

That is not hard to master. It's the recipe for plain boring. It's very near to being a normal shooter like Call of Duty.

[Zakhodit]

Spleenslitta, on 20 September 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

@ Zakhodit
Hey...you're the one who choose a bear as your symbol it's fluffy.

So I did. Fair enough.

And yes, this game shouldn't be another "Call of Battlefield Black Halo" shooter.

Nor does it need to be a table top game. We have one of those.

It should be a game that has the feel of the table top, adapted for the computer. Energy Draw is not a means toward that goal.

[1453 R]

Zakhodit, on 20 September 2016 - 11:58 AM, said:

I'm done with this troll. I can't make my point more simple. Nor can I force him to read the post rather than just conclude otherwise.

I did read the post. In fact, because I'm on lunch right now and can devote more time to it, let's go over the post in detail, shall we?

3...

2...

1...

GO!

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Energy draw is a fools errand. It's a waste of time. The answer is already in the game.

PGI, you're not using it right.

Debatable. If heat alone were sufficient to control certain load-outs, it would already do so. Heat is much more of ain impactor on battlefield performance than you're getting at here. But we'll get into that.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Some of you have posted as if you've played the table top game. And if you have, either it's been a long time and you've forgotten or you were six and you didn't know what you were playing to begin with.

A'ight, seriously now gramps? Knock it off with the age crap. We all get that you're seventy years old and complaining about the kiddies, but it gets you nowhere and all it does is piss off the middle-adged adults that comprise the bulk of MWO's audience.

At this point, anyone who's posted on the forums at all knows how TT heat scale works regardless of whether they played TT battleTech or not. it's not really hard to understand - add up all your +Heat modifiers for a turn, subtract your -Heat modifiers for heat sinks or external cooling, put the rest (if any) on your penalty scale.

Not hard - in a discrete, turn-based system. Doesn't work for snot in a real-time system, as has been pointed out only about four billion and seventeen times, because heat sinks in MWO can only sink heat that exists.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

The heat in MWO is not the punishing counterbalance it should be. Right now it's just a binary ON (everything is fine) OFF (shut down).

And that is what allows for these meta builds to work.

There are a hundred assumptions I could make here, most of which having to do with "Oh GAWD, another FrankenBuild TT codger..."...but I won't bother. They're as unhelpful as this post is. All I'll say is that heat is already a punishing counterbalance because if you're overheated you can't shoot as much, and that means you lose the DPS war against things that run cooler than you do. Or you shut down and you're free food for your enemies.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Since you've forgotten the heat scale, allow me to refresh you.

Oh, here we go...

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

The top of the scale is 30.

Nope - the top of the penalty scale is 30. You have a "free" buffer zone beneath this penalty cap, defined by the number and type of installed heat sinks on your 'Mech. Ideally you shouldn't ever see any heat on the penalty scale - a thing which is literally impossible in the current iteration of the MWO heat system. You need to leave room in the heat scale for 'Mechs to actually do things like...move, or...shoot. Mind-blowing concepts from the younger generation, I know.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

On the table, that was an automatic shut down. So in MWO, it's your heat meter hitting 100%
Okay, the turn based game heat sinks worked a little differently than they do in real time. However, players still run their mechs and carry heat. Carrying Heat is what did you in.

In...?

Also HOLY BANANA BUNNY JESUS, HE SAYS THE WORDS.

"Okay, the turn based game heat sinks worked a little differently than they do in real time."

"Okay, the turn based game heat sinks worked a little differently than they do in real time."

"Okay, the turn based game heat sinks worked a little differently than they do in real time."

"Okay, the turn based game heat sinks worked a little differently than they do in real time."

"Okay, the turn based game heat sinks worked a little differently than they do in real time."

Remember this part. This part is very important. This is something you don't get to just shrug off as inconsequential, the way you tried to do here. This is sort of key to the entire reasoning of why we don't have the direct-from-TT system you're pushing for here.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Currently in MWO you can carry heat all day as long as you keep it under 100%. And if you do? A momentary shut down that damages your center structure a little bit.

...and also leaves you a sitting duck for enemy fire, often resulting in a free kill if you happen to shut down in the wrong place.

But, y'know, no biggie.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Let's go over the heat scale. Lets see what used to happen when you carried heat for too long.

Oh, here we go again...

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

5 Heat: -1 movement points. You lost movement points. An average Mech lost 20-25% of it's speed because it was at 5 heat. FIVE. Carry heat for too long, and it should slow you down. Meaning that if you're constantly running at 10-13% heat you shouldn't be able to go full speed.

One movement point is equivalent to ten-ish KPH, for future reference. And again, this is five heat...

ON. THE. PENALTY. SCALE.

The penalty scale is not the first place heat goes in TT, man. it is the last place heat goes. The MWO heat bar is the first place heat goes because it's the only place heat goes. If being at 20% or greater of your total regular heat capacity means your 'Mech starts being heat-addled, guess what?

YOUR SYSTEM IS BAD!

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

At 8 heat it was a +1 modifier to fire. We aren't even getting warm and it's harder to shoot. If you're carrying heat you shouldn't be able to easily snipe from 1K away.

For the love of all things good, righteous, and cherry-flavored, Zak...

THAT. IS. THE. PENALTY SCALE!

Nobody "carries" heat in MWO because they're playing poorly. They "carry" heat because they have no choice. They do not have magical heat-eating tabletop heat sinks that nullify the existence of thermal energy before that thermal energy actually exists. Fire one cERPPC once from resting heat and you will be "carrying" 15 heat on your bar until the real-time heat dissipation of your heat sinks catches up to that instantaneous heat dump and gets rid of it.

Do you really want a world where firing one cERPPC once is grounds for ammo booms? Because the rest of us really don't.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

At 10 heat: -2 movement points: So 30% on your game bar, you should be loosing speed. No more locusts sprinting around firing all their lasers with no consequence.

Locusts that're moving less than 170kph are dead Locusts. The 'Mech is specifically intended to be a high speed, pop-n-scoot striker in the MWO system. In the Tabletop system, the Locust's intended purpose is being a cheap, throwaway unit nobody wants to pilot that you can use to pad out a BV limit somewhere or because your campaign requires you to use it. That is an unacceptable role in MWO.

What do you figure the Locust is good for, if it's not allowed to move quickly and fire its weapons at the same time?

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

13 Heat: Harder to fire

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

14 Heat: Avoid shutdown on 4+! We are just under 50% on the magic bar in this game and we should have a 33% chance to shut down. That will make you pay attention to what weapon groups you fire wont it?

No, it won't. It will make me stop playing MWO until this horrible nonsensical system is evicted, because again, and let me be as clear about this as I can be...:

THIS. IS. THE. PENALTY. SCALE.

The penalty scale is used in TT only when a 'Mech has exceeded their natural dissipation. Trying to impose the penalty scale on the normal dissipation scale of a MWO 'Mech means nobody can fire anything anymore without their 'Mech throwing histrionics. Good jibbering jimmeny Jeebus man, think about this! Do you really, truly think it's fair for a 'Mech to have to roll to avoid shutdowns after firing ONE GODS-DAMNED PPC?

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

15 Heat: -3 movment points. Or about as fast as you go missing a leg.

Minus thirtyish klicks. And again - why are we dropping thirty klicks for firing one PPC once? It makes no damn sense - nobody would put a gun on a war machine that caused dangerous heat stress when it's fired one single time under normal operating conditions. That's not how engineering works.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

17 Heat: Very hard to fire.

How illuminating. 'Very hard' to fire. Frankly I thought it was simplicity itself to fire, and just difficult to fire accurately, but what do I know? I'm just a damn dirty scrub kiddie, eh?

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

18 Heat: Avoid shutdown on 6+! A 50% chance to shut down the mech.

I'm not getting into this again. We covered this on the 14 marker. No. Bad Zak.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

19 Heat: Ammo Explosion avoid on 4+! How many LRM boats are going to sit there and ride the heat at above 50% with the knowledge that they have a 33% chance to blow their ammo? I sure would love to see the guy's face when he's all the way in the back happily spamming the LRMs when he just suddenly blows up.

A magnificent way to lose a player forever, when he finds out that operating his weapons normally puts him at approaching 100% likelihood in any given single match to detonate his ammo reserves. I'll say it over and over and over until you understand it, Zak.

The TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Some of you damn kids haven't even read this far and you're already typing up your snappy comeback. There is no "Too long, Didn't read" section sonny boy. You have to read the whole book. You've been warned.

Duly noted, gramps. Let's continue.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

20 Heat: -4 Movement points.

Minus forty klicks. Certain assault 'Mechs are basically paralyzed, my Vipers are still cruising like sharks. Totes fair.

Also, as stated above: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

23 Heat: Ammo Explosion, avoid on 4+ Shutdown, avoid on 6+. Now you know you're too hot! Fecal matter is about to collide with a rotating blade. Is there any concern in MWO of this happening? No. By all means keep firing away.

The TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

24 Heat: Really hard to shoot. I suppose you could add an effect where the screen just gets blurry.

The first time all post you've suggested anything worth saying. Blurred-screen filters are a common "Pilot heat stress" simulation element proposed by people who've actually attempted to build a TT-style heat penalties system that would actually work within the environment of MWO. HUD flickering, or even complete loss of HUD functionality, is another one. Some folks have even suggested brief blackouts for riding the heat too high, too long as a "pilot is on the cusp of heat stroke" penalty. The sane people, of course, have put all of these effects on a separate bar, or at least put them at the top end of a bigger-than-thirty heat scale.

Also, for consistency: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

25 Heat: -5 Movement points. AKA: every Assault mech in the game has stopped moving.

Again: this strikes you as fair? Also, not quite - Gargoyles still get thirtyish KPH in the tank, any of the ol' 4/6 machines still get a few klicks in reserve. Seriously, though - this is "handful of lasers" territory in MWO. Why are we inflicting near-paralysis on fatbros for firing a handful of lasers?

Oh, almost forgot: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

26 Heat: Shutdown, avoid on 10+ or an 83% chance you're going to shut down. Again, we haven't hit the bar of 30 yet. If paint chips were your favorite snack, I'll remind you that 30 is equal to the 100% heat bar where you shut down.

You must be just the greatest guy to talk to at work.

For reference: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

28 Heat: Ammo Explosion, avoid on 8+. Or a 66% chance your Mad Dog flushes every thing in the left torso out the back door if you're lucky and have CASE.

It's honestly hard to bother at this point. I've said everything there really is to be said. Multiple times.

Except this: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Then 30 Heat: Shutdown.

Let's just skip straight to the end, shall we?

Ahem: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

I feel like this is where PGI started. At the top of the list. "Oh. Says here shut down. Okay we'll go with that."

"What about all these other words, below?"

"Meh, Too long. Didn't Read."

At this point I wish I hadn't read. But I did, and my goat is thoroughly up, so here we are.

Oh, hey. Just so you know: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Okay, PGI, I apologize. I've had some jabs at your expense. You have done a good job on this game and I have thrown money at it and will continue to throw money at it.

My point is this: why invent an entirely new system to try and make the game fit it's table top origins when you haven't even explored the ways to use the system that made table top players think long and hard before they pulled the alpha trigger?

Because unlike you, Piranha wants the game to be fun. Forcing extremely punitive, game-ending heat rolls on people for firing ONE GODS-DAMNED PPC is not fun. It never will be fun. Nothing can make it fun. You need a space in which your 'mech is allowed to operate the way it's intended to below the penalty scale or your game is fundamentally broken.

Speaking of penalty scales: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

The threat of random shutdown would make a major difference alone. Carefully fire weapons or shut down when don't expect it. You know exactly when you're going to shut down and that's what allows most meta builds to function.

And in the magical world you speak of where nobody can fire anything without exploding, the "meta" builds will still be the ones that can, somehow, operate reliably at 5 heat or less. Because "the threat of random shutdown" is eliminated by not courting it by anyone with the brains of a taco salad.

Even taco salds, however, understand this: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Random Ammo Explosions. Enough said. Keep her cool or do a live field test of CASE. (Because if you played on the table, the real reason you took CASE was you knew you might run hot and blow your ammo.)

So...just randomly exploding for no real reason and being removed from the match because you fired one PPC once strikes you as fair and balanced MWO gameplay?

because it hasn't sunk in with you yet: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Decreased Movement is enough to keep any Light mech from running and gunning like they do. And it is why no Assault ever gave a light mech a moment of worry.

What do light 'Mechs do in your magical happy world there, Zak? What, exactly, is their purpose for existing, if 'running and gunning' is something they're disallowed to do? That's...kinda sorta specifically what they're built for, isn't it?

Also: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Harder to shoot is something that can be reproduced in the game and what good do all those guns do if you can't hit.

My head hurts.
Once again: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Please, don't add something that was never a part of the game. Add something that was. Make heat something to be constantly worried about. Not ignored.

No one who knows what they're doing ignores their heat, Zak. Part of being a good MWO player is being able to keep an eye on your heat and judge how much fight you've got left in you. part of being a great MWO player is ensuring that you're never far away from cover when it comes time for you to back off and cool down. Part of being one of the best MWO players is ensuring you don't need to back off and cool down until all your enemies are dead.

Once again: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

Zakhodit, on 19 September 2016 - 11:22 PM, said:

Hey, bonus side effect: Gauss Rifles become relevant again! No chance for heat related ammo explosion. And you can afford to fire them a lot. Don't forget that when the gun explodes, it's a bad day in America. (Canada too.) CASE wont save you from that!

Are you for real, dude? Gauss Rifles have ranged from relevant to utterly dominating since their introduction. Also yes, CASE does affect Gauss Rifle explosions, or it did the last time I checked. Seriously, though. Were you not here for all the times when PPC/Gauss PPFLD builds ruled the world? Or for the last few PTS test sessions where snapfire Gauss Rifles replaced every other weapon in MWO?

And one last time: THE TT HEAT PENALTY SCALE IS DIFFERENT FROM THE MWO HEAT BAR. YOU CANNOT IMPOSE THE ONE ON THE OTHER.

...are we done here? Good God I hope we're done here. Fup, can we be done here? Please?

[FupDup]

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

...are we done here? Good God I hope we're done here. Fup, can we be done here? Please?

With the way this forum goes...no.



I'm also not sure how I got pulled into this discussion to begin with, but whatever. I shall never decline the opportunity to shitpost. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

Edited by FupDup, 20 September 2016 - 02:02 PM.

[1453 R]

FupDup, on 20 September 2016 - 02:00 PM, said:

With the way this forum goes...no.



I'm also not sure how I got pulled into this discussion to begin with, but whatever. I shall never decline the opportunity to shitpost. ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

[ScarecrowES]

Just pointing this out... I have a full TT proposal thread. Many people have read it at this point. The system is clearly defined, functions with coding already in the game, and can be implemented for testing in less than a day.

The system has been tested over and over with dozens of builds. It works, it's fair, and it is easy to tune.

It can be as lax or as punishing as we want, and combat pacing can be as fast or slow as we want. Variables are currently set to the TT default, because these have near 100% parity to MWO's numbers.

So yeah... the TT system works... it's better than anything in the game or thus far proposed.

[1453 R]

ScarecrowES, on 20 September 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

Just pointing this out... I have a full TT proposal thread. Many people have read it at this point. The system is clearly defined, functions with coding already in the game, and can be implemented for testing in less than a day.

The system has been tested over and over with dozens of builds. It works, it's fair, and it is easy to tune.

It can be as lax or as punishing as we want, and combat pacing can be as fast or slow as we want. Variables are currently set to the TT default, because these have near 100% parity to MWO's numbers.

So yeah... the TT system works... it's better than anything in the game or thus far proposed.

YOUR system, certainly. I'd be willing to test it and see where it goes.

This guy's? He...doesn't really have a system. Mostly just "HERE'S THE ORIGINAL TT HEAT SCALE. USE IT. #SUCKITPGI"

Blegh.

[Tombs Clawtooth]

Spleenslitta, on 20 September 2016 - 12:49 PM, said:

This is not just a normal online FPS game. It has mechs....big stompy things that should be harder to master.
What we got now is a one click shooter. One click gets either kills or cripples the enemy with loads of pinpoint firepower.

That is not hard to master. It's the recipe for plain boring. It's very near to being a normal shooter like Call of Duty.

This isn't a simulator, it will always be a normal shooter no matter how many bandaid fixes are applied. As long as a mouse alone can control the aim of every single weapon and move your torso, we will NOT have what a lot here seem to be wanting.

It will always be about who is the most precise, reflexive shooter. Any attempts to nerf this are merely catering to the lowest common denominator while running off probably the majority of the people who play, and pay for this game.

People wouldn't find so much fault with it if the entire game was more than 12v12 team death match with some sprinkles of other game modes that feature ignorable objectives. Community warfare has a glimmer of a possible game mode out of hundreds that could be implemented. As soon as people have to start optimizing their loadouts to handle objectives rather than enemy mechs, you'll see combat pacing take a turn.

We're in a universe of constant political turmoil and conquest, there's far more than team death match that we could be doing.

All the talk of reducing alpha damage continues to make me scratch my head. So a 100 ton robot with naval cannon sized guns should only be able to just scratch the armor on something that weighs as much as a truck? What on earth are people wanting? A pillow fight? (Yes, I'm referencing ED's preference towards sub 30 damage per shot.)

Edited by Tombs Clawtooth, 20 September 2016 - 09:17 PM.

[MuzMuzMuz]

1453 R, on 20 September 2016 - 01:25 PM, said:

Once again: the TT heat penalty scale is different from the MWO heat bar. You cannot impose the one on the other.

But It's Right there 1453 R? the TT heat penalty scale is in the MWO heat bar. Go to smurfy's and pick a mech - strip it, add a heat generating weapon and a heat sink then go to the weapons lab and check heat capacity. You'll see the 30 point heat penalty scale right there plus heat capacity from the heat sink. Any mech you pilot in MWO has the 30 point heat penalty scale built into it's heat capacity in the MWO heat bar.

PGI didn't magically come up with these numbers, they lifted them straight from TT. In MWO heat capacity = heat dissipation* after which you're into the penalty zone except PGI stripped the heat penalty table down to:

1. no effect
2. no effect
...
29. still no effect,
30. Automatic Shutdown
31+ your mech takes damage

* + skill tree bonuses from heat containment and elite.

By not bothering to ever flesh out the heat penalty scale with something like IDK, scaled heat penalties (and they don't have to follow tabletop exactly - they could throw reticle shake in instead of accruracy penalties and some hud glitching instead of ammo explosions - who knows) mechs get points 1-29 on the penalty scale as free heat capacity yet they've always had balancing issues with the game - go figure?

They nerfed heat capacity on heatsinks - nerfed heat dissipation until we couldn't build heat neutral mechs, Added ghost heat when people were screaming on the forums "fix the heat scale" - managed to leave huge gaps like "I can't fire 3 large lasers without penalty but I can fire 2 and 6 mediums at the same time". Now they're coming up with an even more convoluted "blanket ghost heat on everything based on your damage output" Energy Draw system.

It just seems so long ago that PGI decided "we'll just throw the 30 point penalty scale in with heat capacity and ignore everything up until automatic shutdown" that it's been glossed over and entrenched as part of the game.

Yeah, I get why your giving the OP a hard time 1453 R - but what about ScarecrowES system? Maybe Zakhodit doesn't have a perfect system defined for you or even a viable one in your opinion. But the crux of the argument - that PGI could add scaling heat penalties and then tweak the numbers to achieve most of the sorts of results they're hoping for out of ED? I think that's valid

Cheers,

Muz

Edited by MuzMuzMuz, 21 September 2016 - 04:59 AM.