132 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Out of all the builds provided, it seems they picked the absolute worst ones provided for IS.

Clan ones aren't perfect, but at least they don't suck bad.

Standard engine Commandos and XL Crabs, that's got to be fixed. Grasshopper that has 2 small pulse lasers instead of actually bringing a good laser alpha with mixed LPLs and MPLs, LRM stalker of all things.

On the Clan side the Hunchback IIC build has a spare half ton of normal AC10 ammo instead of UAC10, no idea why.

[vandalhooch]

JediPanther, on 20 September 2016 - 11:51 AM, said:

I still blame pgi not people who said use build X because in the end it is pgi who decides what goes on the trial mechs. The only real use of trial mechs is one simple fact: any mech xp you get stays on that variant of mech which allows you to have one less mech xp-ed out without having to spend the c-bills or mc on it first. This in theory will let you mech xp out a mech if you are patient enough to wait for the next variant of the mech to rotate as a trial. I normally just play a mech until l I have the roughly 44,000 mech xp needed to basic and elite it or at least long enough to get the all important speed tweek.

Doesn't work. You still need to purchase the mech and spend the mech XP in order to basic / elite / master it. You can't unlock the elite on other variants until you've actually purchased the basics on a trial variant that you own.

[Tesunie]

vVaeVictusv, on 20 September 2016 - 06:39 PM, said:

Havent had a chance to play. Did we lose some trial mech options to make way for the new ones?

Whenever they add more champions and rotate the trials, they typically replace all the current trials with new ones. They will change from time to time. This particular rotation incorporates at least 8 new champion versions. I believe there are 16 champions per faction (IS and Clan). 2 of each weight category. So, we should also see 8 old champion builds as trials again.
(I could be wrong with this.)

[vVaeVictusv]

Damnit, we lost the good trial champions. Lolcust, Timby, PulseMasta, Ryoken, Arctic Cheetah. The replacement for the most part suck balls.

[Kael Posavatz]

Dakota1000, on 20 September 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

On the Clan side the Hunchback IIC build has a spare half ton of normal AC10 ammo instead of UAC10, no idea why.

Possibly a thought experiment on the part of the designer to see how many people were paying attention when voting?

[Chuck Jager]

If new players are in t5 and playing pugs the trials are usually better than the builds truly new folks make themselves.

If you take a new player into a group match or are working with them in a private match, it will suck to be them.

As a t2 player I still see way too many trial mechs on both sides. I even take the time to learn the loadouts to make sure. It is a great big F****me against the shower tile flag. Good news the builds are 10 times better than the stock builds.

[Tesunie]

Kael Posavatz, on 20 September 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

Possibly a thought experiment on the part of the designer to see how many people were paying attention when voting?

More than likely... was a miss-grab of the wrong ammo. Might have even accidentally had normal ACs on at first, corrected, and forgot that one ton of ammo.

Funny thing is... It made the vote, and it's in the game with a 1/2 ton of normal AC10 ammo...

[Dee Eight]

Left in deliberately with very little rear armor so that even when the player thinks they're empty, the enemy can still blow them up.

[627]

Most of what OP wrote is right and I fully agree with it. Some trials will leave you there scratching your head what the builder tried to do with it. Others have like 4 different weapon types who aren't working well together if you don't know how.

The biggest poblem I see with the current trial mechs is that they are more or less all the same. Theya should show the different play styles this game have. there should be at least one lurmy, one dakka mech, a brawler and some kind of long range fighter, be it gauss or ER pew pew.

Just go through the NPE - you finish the academy and your first 10-25 matches when you have enough money for your first mech (actually you can buy your first mech without a single match if you stay around 50tons) - by that time you should have a good impression what kind of gameplay you like and what kind of weapon type you can handle.

No one plays trials to win like hell, you play them to earn yourself a mech *or* to learn a new playstyle/weapon system/weight class. So they should drop those meta builds and focus on simple builds with a gun less but a heatsink or two more. I wouldn't say idiot proof or heat neutral but at least all those bad XL mechs should go if it isn't a catapult or light mech.

[Dee Eight]

Tesunie, on 20 September 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:

After helping a new player try and learn the game, we came across an issue, and I quote, "These Champion builds suck" was his exact words. And you know what, he's right. This time, we have no one else to blame but ourselves.

Its because the designs and glad handed voting of them were by tiertards who are so far removed from "new" players as to have no idea anymore what a new player is or needs. Anyone who submitted balanced non-meta builds that actually played to the quirks of the mechs and which could serve as excellent teaching tools for new players (who are the ones using trial mechs mainly), got zero or one or two likes, and that was it. The best I managed out of my seven submissions was I think TWO likes on a highlander IIC which packs a 325XL, 3JJ, Mk1 Computer, AP, 17DHS, Dual Ultra-10s w/4 tons of ammo, Dual Artemis SRM6 w/2.5 tons of ammo and 3 ERML and nearly maximum armor give a nice brawling mix (and there's actually enough armor covering the rear torso to not die to a commando in one shot).

My panther 8Z got no likes. Pair of SRM4s w/2 tons ammo, AMS w/1 ton, ERLL, ML, TAG, 180XL, Endo Steel, 11DHS, 4 JJ and 14 pts shy of maximum armor. Nice balanced light support mech. Perfect for a new player to learn to sniper, target mechs for missile strikes, can shield an assault with the AMS and SRM4s defend it against another light, etc.

My Hunchie IIC likewise got no likes... Good mix for a brawler, Pretty close to maximum armor. Quad SRM6-Artemis w/5 tons of ammo gives 20 full volleys, 2 ERML for some distance shooting until you close to SRM range. Maximum speed and jump capability for the chassis, decent heat, only 2 fire groups needed, and heat sinks in the legs help teach new players the value of fighting in water.

My Zeus ( http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2425283f1b991f7 ) likewise also got no votes, and its actually something missing in the trial mech options, a non-boat LRM mech. Maximum armor everywhere but the legs (which will tend to be behind cover for most players cresting rises), AMS, 3 tons of LRM ammo for the triple LRM5s gives 36 volleys, 3 tons of Ultra-5 AC ammo gives 45 double-taps, and two good ol' reliable Large Lasers for their nice heat/damage curves. 325XL engine makes it slightly faster than a regular Zeus-5S, the artemis and tag combine to improve the spread of the missiles if you have line of sight, and the beagle boosts the radar range so you can make proper usage of those LRMs 1000 meters range. Also because it has both the beagle and the TAG its not your typical boat that depends on 3rd party targeting for the player.

Edited by Dee Eight, 20 September 2016 - 10:54 PM.

[Tesunie]

Dee Eight, on 20 September 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

who are so far removed from "new" players as to have no idea anymore what a new player is or needs.

This I think is the biggest factor.

But don't feel bad. My designs didn't get much for voting either. I only submitted two for the Crab. The 20 was a "it could work, but I'd rather see the 27B instead" toss in. But each build I've had great success in, and each don't require a ton of skill to utilize decently. The 27B can keep it's distance, runs fairly cool, and if you happen to stare an opponent down, it still can work well. The 20 has that "need for speed", maintains reasonable ranges, and can get in and out of a bad situation, typically still alive and kicking.

I saw a lot of other builds I felt were really good besides my own. They seemed to really consider new players and their expected skills. Saw some 5MPL builds that looked fairly good (I'd prefer more range, but that's me so I still voted for them). There were a lot of good suggestions, but the ones with more votes where more "meta" and "skillful" builds than "new player friendly". I believe that was because of the same stated reason I quoted you for.

(I'll add, this post is NOT a "I didn't get mine in" whine post. I've just been trying to help several very frustrated new players recently, and I decided to take that experience and apply it to something hopefully productive.)

[Tesunie]

Dee Eight, on 20 September 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

My Zeus ( http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2425283f1b991f7 )

Question: Might I recommend this? You don't really need Artemis with LRM5s, as they already have good spread. I moved the TAG to the side torso, and the LL to the CT. Then added in a large STD engine, so it can Zombie. Even if they don't twist damage, it gives the option. 60KPH is a tad slow, but should be well enough. It's mostly a long range build there, so speed isn't as important (in my opinion).

Just a thought.

PS: Your leg LRM ammo... is of the wrong type (somehow). Just so you know.


EDIT: I only have one Zeus design I feel is reasonable. I didn't submit it because, though it works for me, I figured the splattering of LRMs would deter anyone from voting for it anyway. (LRM haters seem like they will just hate anyway.) I'll also comment... I don't do well in assaults and I don't play them often. That includes the Zeus...

Edited by Tesunie, 20 September 2016 - 11:42 PM.

[justcallme A S H]

Agreed, anything IS with XL. Just dumb.

How are people meant to learn when other players will easily take apart a IS mech for a easy kill against a player that is taking something for a spin to see if they wanna purchase it.

Crab is a nice tanky mech, with a STD engine.

[Tesunie]

justcallme A S H, on 21 September 2016 - 02:18 AM, said:

Agreed, anything IS with XL. Just dumb.

There are some mechs where XL engines are more recommended than not. I think the trial Grasshopper isn't too bad (minus the fact that it's laser placement is a little odd. The SPLs should have been placed in so the LPL were in the top mounted slots...).

The Crab, Stalker (back in the day) and several other chassis should probably shy away from XL. Light mechs (possibly minus the Wolfhound) and most Medium mechs can easily work with an XL engine. Then we have the Dragon, Quickdraw, Grasshopper and a few other IS heavies even that can function with an XL engine without much if any difficulty.

AKA: Depends upon the mech, but as a general rule of thumb yes. IS trial mechs should try to shy away from XL engine.

Edited by Tesunie, 21 September 2016 - 07:41 AM.

[Zookeeper Dan]

Totally agree!

I remember when I started playing the only trials available were energy based, I had to build my own before I even got the chance to try ballistics or missiles!

There should be stipulations for the next round of trial mechs.

1) They should be durable. No XL engines in mechs lower than 50 tons.
2) They should have good heat management.
3) They should be effective at a variety of ranges and be able to do something at ranges up to 1000 m.
4) No more than 3 effective weapon groups.
5) Between all the trial mechs there should be a variety of loadouts.

In order to get this I'd be okay with community design and PGI picking the winner. Plus this eliminates the problem with forum voting, first page always gets more votes than following pages. There could even by a hybrid, PGI or players pick the top 5 and then the other chooses the winner.

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 20 September 2016 - 10:51 PM, said:

Its because the designs and glad handed voting of them were by tiertards who are so far removed from "new" players as to have no idea anymore what a new player is or needs. Anyone who submitted balanced non-meta builds that actually played to the quirks of the mechs and which could serve as excellent teaching tools for new players (who are the ones using trial mechs mainly), got zero or one or two likes, and that was it. The best I managed out of my seven submissions was I think TWO likes on a highlander IIC which packs a 325XL, 3JJ, Mk1 Computer, AP, 17DHS, Dual Ultra-10s w/4 tons of ammo, Dual Artemis SRM6 w/2.5 tons of ammo and 3 ERML and nearly maximum armor give a nice brawling mix (and there's actually enough armor covering the rear torso to not die to a commando in one shot).

I wouldn't go that far.

Some people keep saying "the NPE is fine", but that's based on running their own alt account. This is flawed on many different levels... as anyone that runs an alt account knows how to build mechs, not just picking the correct ones.

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My panther 8Z got no likes. Pair of SRM4s w/2 tons ammo, AMS w/1 ton, ERLL, ML, TAG, 180XL, Endo Steel, 11DHS, 4 JJ and 14 pts shy of maximum armor. Nice balanced light support mech. Perfect for a new player to learn to sniper, target mechs for missile strikes, can shield an assault with the AMS and SRM4s defend it against another light, etc.

That's an awful build.

You're super ammo dependent (primarily short ranged) and TAG... I don't even want to express disappointment than the obvious.

Vs other Lights, a new player will struggle with SRMs as pulse lasers of any type are better for this strict purpose. Your build doesn't remotely solve what it intends to solve.

Quote

My Hunchie IIC likewise got no likes... Good mix for a brawler, Pretty close to maximum armor. Quad SRM6-Artemis w/5 tons of ammo gives 20 full volleys, 2 ERML for some distance shooting until you close to SRM range. Maximum speed and jump capability for the chassis, decent heat, only 2 fire groups needed, and heat sinks in the legs help teach new players the value of fighting in water.

Despite the build probably being functional, the issue a new player will have is overheating... and this build will get them closer to their own death due to overheating. Again.. we have to apply "new player logic", and it's not that the build is bad... it's the likelihood they'll "figure it out" fast enough to make it effective.

Quote

My Zeus ( http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2425283f1b991f7 ) likewise also got no votes, and its actually something missing in the trial mech options, a non-boat LRM mech. Maximum armor everywhere but the legs (which will tend to be behind cover for most players cresting rises), AMS, 3 tons of LRM ammo for the triple LRM5s gives 36 volleys, 3 tons of Ultra-5 AC ammo gives 45 double-taps, and two good ol' reliable Large Lasers for their nice heat/damage curves. 325XL engine makes it slightly faster than a regular Zeus-5S, the artemis and tag combine to improve the spread of the missiles if you have line of sight, and the beagle boosts the radar range so you can make proper usage of those LRMs 1000 meters range. Also because it has both the beagle and the TAG its not your typical boat that depends on 3rd party targeting for the player.

This is still "a boat" by the classic of all definitions. Artemis is unnecessary for LRM5s (it's truly a waste of tonnage at this point).

It's still stupidly easy to side core (especially after rescaling).

[xengk]

http://mwomercs.com/...on-mech-builds/
The philosophy of champion mech built is heavily based on: weapon min-maxing, a specific play style, and quirks.
Something that I have always been against, but bad build still keeps getting voted in.

Also, pretty much any build beyond page 1 will not receive much attention.

[Dee Eight]

justcallme A S H, on 21 September 2016 - 02:18 AM, said:

Agreed, anything IS with XL. Just dumb.

How are people meant to learn when other players will easily take apart a IS mech for a easy kill against a player that is taking something for a spin to see if they wanna purchase it.

Crab is a nice tanky mech, with a STD engine.

One of my two Grasshoper submissions was a GHR-5J http://mwo.smurfy-ne...04228daf9f8d6b8 with specifically a standard engine so the player could zombie AND still shoot at the enemy. Also all the ammo went into the same side torso with CASE protecting it, and four of six jump jets were in the legs so you could still be a leaping zombie of pulse laser fury. Again though, no votes at all. 2 ERLL gives long range ability, Quad SPLs and an SRM4 for closer in fighting, Its got armor bonuses to the legs and arms and a CT structure bonus. Weapon quirks are 10% energy cooldown, 10% ERLL cooldown, and 10% energy heat reduction. So I designed keeping all the quirks in mind. Its even used all the hardpoints as there's a double AMS installation with 2 tons of ammo. 15 Double heat sinks with 1 in the engine means it runs a touch hot but as long as you don't alpha repeatedly at the wrong range, a new player should manage fine. And once you reach zombie status, you can alpha away with those 2 SPLs and the 11 engine DHS will be all you need to shoot every 2.5 seconds (or 1.25 if chain firing). All in all I thought it a very practical and sensible champion build KNOWING that the new champions always go into rotation as trial mechs for at least six months (since the last batch of player voted designs occurred in feb and arrived in the march patch). Those spring champions btw had three of five IS mechs (the battlemaster, awesome, and commando) built around standard engines.


Oh and above my zeus with wrong ammo...part of the problem with smurfy builds is that it allows you to load unmatching things together... which is how that Hunchie got its half ton of normal AC ammo...and doesn't warn you about it before saving !!! I also forgot to change my panther in smurfy to a 180XL from the 175XL before saving, since there's no need with champions to keep to canon variant engine ratings when we all know there are some engines that weigh the same in higher ratings, so why not use them since MWO uses a different movement rate calculation than mere movement points.

Edited by Dee Eight, 21 September 2016 - 01:12 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Deathlike, on 21 September 2016 - 11:06 AM, said:

I wouldn't go that far.

Some people keep saying "the NPE is fine", but that's based on running their own alt account. This is flawed on many different levels... as anyone that runs an alt account knows how to build mechs, not just picking the correct ones.

Since you mentioned alt accounts... I have to wonder if any alt forum accounts were used to up vote some entries.

Quote

That's an awful build.

You're super ammo dependent (primarily short ranged) and TAG... I don't even want to express disappointment than the obvious.

Vs other Lights, a new player will struggle with SRMs as pulse lasers of any type are better for this strict purpose. Your build doesn't remotely solve what it intends to solve.

Personally I consider most of the winning champions to be awful for new players. I think balanced mixed builds that TEACH players new skills are being better for them that tryhard meta only works well one way builds. and as new players are less likely to torso twist to spread damage, they're gonna face tank into a quick death with short range pulse builds.

Quote

Despite the build probably being functional, the issue a new player will have is overheating... and this build will get them closer to their own death due to overheating. Again.. we have to apply "new player logic", and it's not that the build is bad... it's the likelihood they'll "figure it out" fast enough to make it effective.

How is that an overheat worry for a new player ? 16 DHS and only two fire groups needed for the mouse control. If overheat is an issue...why did BlackhawkSC's winning entry get forty votes while being less heat efficient ?! Mine has more speed, more agility, better heat efficiency, more firepower, more armor. How is learning the clan streaming ultra autocannon and its double-tap jam mechanic better for a new player than direct fire non-complicated thinking SRMs ?

Quote

This is still "a boat" by the classic of all definitions. Artemis is unnecessary for LRM5s (it's truly a waste of tonnage at this point).

It's still stupidly easy to side core (especially after rescaling).

Artemis may not help the 5 pack grouping much, but the lock time reduction can be good booster for a new player, and how is it still a boat using just three LRM5s, two LLs and an Ultra-5 ? Classic boat definition to ME is ALL one weapon type or one range band and usually no backup/alternate weapons. Mine has LRMs 181-1000m range, LL at 0-473m optimal and Ultra-5 at 0-600m optimal.

As to side coring, if that's such an issue, why did the winning Zeus entry which has an XL engine manage 26 votes ? Its more of a boat than mine is with three SRM6+Artemis and 4 MPLs means if it came up against my Zeus... while it has the speed to close quickly since its got a 380XL (and I only used a 325XL), its still got to go thru all three of my weapon systems engaging it before it can even bring its MPLs to bear for minimal damage at 484m . Mine has 14DHS to manage an alpha heat load of 21 pts, while the winner has 18DHS to manage a 28 pt load. The mechlab heat efficiency math has them almost identical at 1.37 (mine) vs 1.36 (winner).

My zeus variant also has the maximum structure quirks (atlas quality ones at that) of all the variants, has the only agility quirks of all the variants, and the weapon quirks are nicely balanced as well for the hardpoints. 5% ballistic velocity and cooldown, -30% jam chance, 5% energy range, 5% missile velocity and LRM spread reduction. Which with the artemis brings the LRM5 spread down even further, and if the tag laser connects also in that missile flight (up to 788 meters) then that tightens it further still. Might as well be 6 heat for 15 CT damage at that stage.

Edited by Dee Eight, 21 September 2016 - 02:13 PM.

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 21 September 2016 - 01:10 PM, said:

One of my two Grasshoper submissions was a GHR-5J http://mwo.smurfy-ne...04228daf9f8d6b8 with specifically a standard engine so the player could zombie AND still shoot at the enemy. Also all the ammo went into the same side torso with CASE protecting it, and four of six jump jets were in the legs so you could still be a leaping zombie of pulse laser fury. Again though, no votes at all. 2 ERLL gives long range ability, Quad SPLs and an SRM4 for closer in fighting, Its got armor bonuses to the legs and arms and a CT structure bonus. Weapon quirks are 10% energy cooldown, 10% ERLL cooldown, and 10% energy heat reduction. So I designed keeping all the quirks in mind. Its even used all the hardpoints as there's a double AMS installation with 2 tons of ammo. 15 Double heat sinks with 1 in the engine means it runs a touch hot but as long as you don't alpha repeatedly at the wrong range, a new player should manage fine. And once you reach zombie status, you can alpha away with those 2 SPLs and the 11 engine DHS will be all you need to shoot every 2.5 seconds (or 1.25 if chain firing). All in all I thought it a very practical and sensible champion build KNOWING that the new champions always go into rotation as trial mechs for at least six months (since the last batch of player voted designs occurred in feb and arrived in the march patch). Those spring champions btw had three of five IS mechs (the battlemaster, awesome, and commando) built around standard engines.

That's a terrible awful build.

It's too slow, not mobile, and based off the worst Grasshopper variants available.

Quote

Oh and above my zeus with wrong ammo...part of the problem with smurfy builds is that it allows you to load unmatching things together... which is how that Hunchie got its half ton of normal AC ammo...and doesn't warn you about it before saving !!! I also forgot to change my panther in smurfy to a 180XL from the 175XL before saving, since there's no need with champions to keep to canon variant engine ratings when we all know there are some engines that weigh the same in higher ratings, so why not use them since MWO uses a different movement rate calculation than mere movement points.

There is specifically a checkbox to filter ammo for weapons you have equipped @ smurfies (and technically in-game).

Edited by Deathlike, 21 September 2016 - 02:14 PM.