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Champion/trial Mechs: It's Our Fault!

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#121 Requiemking

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 07:53 PM

View PostIntrepid, on 27 September 2016 - 07:31 AM, said:

Or, and I am just throwing this out there, you could spend CBills on the non-Champion version and build it yourself Posted Image

Except, all that XP is inaccessible, not because I am unwilling to purchase the MC(On the the contrary, I would purchase that mech in a heartbeat if I had the money), but because I can't due to limited funds. It's a similar situation with newbs. They spend all their time building up a massive amount of XP on their favourite Trial mech, go to spend it, find out they have to buy it first, then learn that it is "Premeium currency only", which they cannot get unless they drop at least $20 in MC.

#122 Tesunie

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Posted 27 September 2016 - 08:22 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 27 September 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

Except, all that XP is inaccessible, not because I am unwilling to purchase the MC(On the the contrary, I would purchase that mech in a heartbeat if I had the money), but because I can't due to limited funds. It's a similar situation with newbs. They spend all their time building up a massive amount of XP on their favourite Trial mech, go to spend it, find out they have to buy it first, then learn that it is "Premeium currency only", which they cannot get unless they drop at least $20 in MC.


That's the thing we are trying to tell you. The experience earned on the Champion Trial are applied to the base line model. For example, the Crab 27SL(C) will generate experience on the Crab 27SL chassis. So, if you purchase the standard C-bill Crab 27SL, it will already have the experience earned from the trial mech when you used it.

There is no specific experience pool for the champion mechs. They all apply to their base chassis variant. You can utilize that experience you earned from using the trial mech on a free C-bill chassis. However, in order to unlock skills, you do need to own the chassis variant. Otherwise it's experience that remains unusable.

#123 Naduk

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 01:40 AM

View PostTina Benoit, on 22 September 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

I can see the concern that OP is bringing up and I'm only going to suggest something regarding that for the future Champions.

for 1, I could be more specific in my posts when requesting for builds for the next champions, asking everyone to make sure their submissions are new player friendly, however there's still a chance the same thing will continue to occur the same way as current, where some of you worry it might be a popularity contest or due to being a "meta".

I think most of you agree that you still prefer letting community members make these builds, so maybe instead of having everyone submit a build and then vote, let's add a rule where the person who submits a build HAS to explain how that build will be compatible for new players the most.
Maybe we can even have more detailed discussions elsewhere on some of the specific submitted builds explaining why. We can still use the vote system, and at the end we could also make sure a designer reviews the discussed builds and let them make the final call as to which one would make it, rather than take the build with the highest votes like we have been.

We can try to make a judgment call upon your discussions of the build that most seem to agree for new player compatibility. Not everyone will always come to an agreement, there will most likely be debates where some will disagree but perhaps having us overview everyone's discussions rather than a vote system might just be the better way to pick the one.


a fantastic start

what ever happens the process needs to be much more refined

id like to see it play out like this

we focus on one mech at a time

a news post that is displayed on the website / launcher / in game news

build submission time is set along site any rules / desires for the build to be set by PGI

then PGI selects a set of builds that meet the stipulated desire for the chassis

another news post that is displayed on the website / launcher / in game news
this time informing the community that it is time to vote on the build finalists
the news post tells everyone where to vote and why they are voting
then the community chooses from the finalists

then move on to the next mech

this way you get guided build submissions with community involvement and PGI quality control

to me the most important thing is keeping the whole community aware that this is happening
otherwise its just a tiny pool of people being sourced for this en devour
so its no wonder that the pool of builds is becoming stale

#124 RAM

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:51 AM

View PostTesunie, on 27 September 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

A line of questions for you:
1. Who often uses trial mechs? New players. Most experienced players don't even look at the trial selection (or the Champion selection). There is a reason there was the highly requested feature called "owned" for selection tabs in the mech select screens.

2. When where Champion Mechs first introduced and for what reason? As far as I last recalled, the first Champion build was released as a trial mech and was even sold (for MC) as a booster for new players. It was designed, from the start, to be for the new players. This way they would have trial mechs that could compete better and help them learn, while also providing an easy mech to purchase if you liked them (and provide another income source for PGI). I know of no other reason for them. (Guess why they have an EXP boost on them? To help new players advance a little faster in GXP and in leveling the mech up.)

3. Name some "vets" who would use the trial/champion mechs over their own mechs that they own and can customize? I can't think of any. Basically everyone I know of, once they have their own mechs and have a reasonable amount of them, don't even look at the trials/champions anymore. If they do, it's only to fill out a needed space in a drop deck. If they are truly a "vet", they don't even need that and will grab a mech from their 30+ possible options.

4. Seen as the answer above was basically "New players use Trials, not new players use their own mechs", why does having trial mechs that aren't "new player friendly" a good thing? Why should they be "not new player friendly"? I... can thing of no reason here. I've only heard of new players contemplating Champion mechs as trials and the occasional "I liked the build, so I bought the champion so I wouldn't have to build it" from a new player. I've rarely if ever heard of other players outside that jump on board with the "useless EXP boosting" Champion mechs... (I've heard many people call Champion mechs that. They just aren't worth the MC to purchase. You are often better off with the free C-bill variant and just alter it to the Champion build if anything else. It's what we recommend to new players in the New Player forum all the time.)

5. What is the purpose of champion builds? Your own answer: "No the purpose of Champions is to make PGI money and as such considerations for NPE detract from their actual purpose." This is actually wrong. Yes, Champions can make money for PGI, but their intent was to help new players. If they are not performing that job, should we go back to stock mechs being the trials? At this point, some of them might be better learning mechs (some exaggeration may apply here).

6. What would you consider "New Player Friendly" for mech design? I consider it making a design that is "never useless" when possible, and ones that reflect a mechs strengths and tries to diminish their weaknesses. Just like the XL in the Stalker was decried as a bad Champion build and a horrible Trial for new players (yes, this was a thing), there are things that just don't work well for new players. XL engines on some mechs is fine, but most mechs would work better with a Std engine instead. Such as the Crab would be better with a Std engine over an XL for a new player. The Panther and Grasshopper are fine though with an XL in relation, because those mechs are either light (speed is life) and/or are very XL friendly (Grasshopper is known for having a huge CT). Then we can address weapons after that, and I believe (over the course of the trial mechs currently selected) that they should have a variety of weapons and builds. But, if possible, to not be so focused in one build type that they can't fight any other way. (Ex: If you have a Grasshopper with nothing but SPL (for whatever reason), you probably could/should include a single (ER)LL for some ranged engagement. It should easily have the weight for it. Where as a Jenner probably doesn't have the weight, but does have the speed to be able to use an all close range build.)

Okay... I have to pull this part out seperately and address it:
"Going from a STD to an XL is good; going from an XL to a STD is terrible. Preferably with a multipurpose engine size: 280, 300, etc. Double Heatsinks rather than Single and Endo over Ferro. Expensive weapons over cheaper alternatives (ERLL > LL; LBX10 > AC10). Cram in the electronics. Provide as much bang for the buck as possible!"

Um... What? Champion builds aren't a C-bill source. They become our trial mech pool, and thus should have practical builds for that position and role. Why would I "gimp" a Champion build to "include all the expense" if that kind of a build would not be helpful to the mech or as a trial selection? We are not trying to use Champions as an easy conversion of MC to C-bills... Though I have heard of people doing the number crunching for that, it is not their intended reason for purchase. We should not be considering that when builds are being presented.

1 - Neither you nor I have the data to answer that; however, while I have already stated that Trial mechs are used by new (as well as vet) players, that is a choice they are making. They can purchase mechs just like everyone else.

2 - You are conflating Trial Mechs and Champion Mechs again. They are not synonymous. Further, consider your premise: that MC only Champions are for new players. That simply does not logically follow. How many new players are going to purchase MC in order to buy a Champion mech?

3 - Ignoring again that Trials & Champions are not the same, I grind out Mastery XP on every Trial - best way to learn the strengths of weaknesses of one’s opponents. I also own numerous Champion mechs that I use regularly.

4 - You continue to take issue with your erroneous logical belief that Champions and Trials are one and the same. Regardless, where does it say that Trials are for new players? What does trial even mean, let alone mean to you?

Trial said:

1.test (something, especially a new product) to assess its suitability or performance
2.a test of the performance, qualities, or suitability of someone or something

I am not seeing anything in the definition to indicate that Trial mechs are for new players, nor have I seen a statement from IGP or PGI otherwise… Trials being used by new players, does not Trials are only for new players.

5 - No. Again, your Champion/Trial confusion betrays you. Champions most definitely exist to make PGI money; indeed, that is this entire game’s sole purpose. They may do that by helping new players (or not), but they can only do that if they sell. Trials may help new players (or not…) but that is also not their sole purpose.

6 - A ‘jack of all trades’ is ‘master of none’ so all you have done is changed the builds from good some of the time to good none of the time. Yet, irrespective of which philosophy you prescribe to, the fact is that while the game changes the builds do not so you are still faced with the issue of having made a build that no longer fits the current game; therefore as above if Champions are not solely Trials and they have to be purchased, with a price fixed to 125% MC of their regular variant, it stands to reason we should make them as valuable as possible for those that do.
(it is not about building gimpy mechs, but building the best value mechs - as your eloquent quote shows)

Ultimately, your premise is correct (and well known); unfortunately your analysis is flawed. The problem is not Champion mechs, but rather than the new player experience is terrible period. And because you are blinded by that confusion you will never see the actual problem you want to address.


RAM
ELH

#125 Tesunie

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 09:13 AM

View PostRAM, on 28 September 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

1 - Neither you nor I have the data to answer that; however, while I have already stated that Trial mechs are used by new (as well as vet) players, that is a choice they are making. They can purchase mechs just like everyone else.

2 - You are conflating Trial Mechs and Champion Mechs again. They are not synonymous. Further, consider your premise: that MC only Champions are for new players. That simply does not logically follow. How many new players are going to purchase MC in order to buy a Champion mech?

3 - Ignoring again that Trials & Champions are not the same, I grind out Mastery XP on every Trial - best way to learn the strengths of weaknesses of one’s opponents. I also own numerous Champion mechs that I use regularly.

4 - You continue to take issue with your erroneous logical belief that Champions and Trials are one and the same. Regardless, where does it say that Trials are for new players? What does trial even mean, let alone mean to you?

I am not seeing anything in the definition to indicate that Trial mechs are for new players, nor have I seen a statement from IGP or PGI otherwise… Trials being used by new players, does not Trials are only for new players.

5 - No. Again, your Champion/Trial confusion betrays you. Champions most definitely exist to make PGI money; indeed, that is this entire game’s sole purpose. They may do that by helping new players (or not), but they can only do that if they sell. Trials may help new players (or not…) but that is also not their sole purpose.

6 - A ‘jack of all trades’ is ‘master of none’ so all you have done is changed the builds from good some of the time to good none of the time. Yet, irrespective of which philosophy you prescribe to, the fact is that while the game changes the builds do not so you are still faced with the issue of having made a build that no longer fits the current game; therefore as above if Champions are not solely Trials and they have to be purchased, with a price fixed to 125% MC of their regular variant, it stands to reason we should make them as valuable as possible for those that do.
(it is not about building gimpy mechs, but building the best value mechs - as your eloquent quote shows)

Ultimately, your premise is correct (and well known); unfortunately your analysis is flawed. The problem is not Champion mechs, but rather than the new player experience is terrible period. And because you are blinded by that confusion you will never see the actual problem you want to address.


RAM
ELH


Okay, I've come to a conclusion. Although I've asked a friend for some information before I respond with it, I've come to a determination that it doesn't matter if Champion mechs where made first or not. They are currently always the mechs to be added into the Trial mech pool, so their builds should always be considered as what would benefit the trial mech system. It's how they are currently. Whatever they were in the past is very much irrelevant.

Now, to the questions:
1. Seriously? Okay, logically thinking about this, whom is most likely to use a trial mech? Someone who already owns a bunch of mechs (many vets own 50+ mechs), or a new player that doesn't own any mechs yet at all? Someone who already is experienced with mech building construction and will adjust their own mech and know how weapons behave (vet), or someone who doesn't own any mechs and doesn't know how many/all weapons in the game even work (new player)? I don't need any statistical data on this to give you a very well educated guess that trial mechs are probably used mostly by new players, with maybe the occational drop from a Vet checking something out or needing a quick fill in for a FP drop deck. AKA: The new players are almost exclusively relying on the trial mechs. Where as the Vet player will rarely if ever even consider looking at them. (I know I haven't used a Trial mech in years.)

2. Actually, at the current standing in this game, yes. Trial mechs are Champion mechs. All current Trial mechs are pulled from the Champion Mech Pool. Now, if PGI created some Champion mechs that were never intended to go into the Trial cycle, you'd have more of a point. However, as every Champion build I know of has resided in the Trial mech slot at some time (if not several times)... I'd like to also ask, whom do you think those Champion sales are for? Whom do you honestly think are purchasing those mastery packs? Most of them are new players, because the Mastery pack can give them three mechs without any wait time in game. It gives them the three needed variants of the same chassis to be able to level their skills right to mastery. One mech is a Champion build, which should (in theory) not need any customizing to work, as it should work decent right out of the box. Then there is the Hero mech (the only reason a Vet might consider the pack), which has that nice +30% C-bill generator. Then a standard variant, something to customize once you've figured the game out more.

3. That may be you, but I can say that most vets (you do consider yourself a vet, correct? You've been around at least the forums since 2012.) don't really have any Champion mechs, or if they do it's probably was earned as a prize from an event, much like my Centurion and Jeagermech Champions I own. I did not purchase them. Most vets see Champion mechs as irrelevant. Why pay MC for something you can get for C-bills/free? The (originally +10%) +30% exp normally isn't considered worth the MC expense, as once the mech is mastered it becomes almost useless. (It does boost GXP gained, but very minimally.) Most vet players would rather spend MC on a hero mech rather than a Champion mech. This reinforces my statement that Champion Mechs should be designed to be Trial mechs, and that Trial mechs should be geared more towards new players. Even Tina agreed, and soon we shall see if PGI does too if they change their Champion build entree system to match.

4. I'll counter your remark with a simple statement: Who is more likely to actually "test" something in this game? And, how are you likely to test something, presumably new, when all the trial mechs end up almost the same? Need I remind you on how many of the new trials have LPLs in them? Which also leads to some more of my points. Trials are intended for new players, not strictly only for new players. And... Need I remind that Tina works for PGI? I think that's a semi-official statement from PGI right there. And, do you believe that PGI will respond to a question of "are trial mechs geared towards new players"? Probably not.
PS: IGP is no longer in the picture...

5. I believe you are repeating yourself here. And, you've yet to prove your first statement that Trial mechs (and thus the Champion mechs that form the pool of Trial mech options currently) are not intended to help new players. Helping new players helps increase the pool of potential purchases. Champion mechs also help new players far more than they do vet players, and that's just by the nature of their exp boost. Vet players normally don't need any exp boosting, as Premium Time is more effective, or just playing the game. For the tiny amount of GXP extra it may grant is minimal compared to what premium time could give them. Plus, most people who consider themselves vets also have a lot of GXP gathered. I know I do at least.

6. So.... Champion builds don't matter is what you are saying? Only that you can get more C-bills when you strip them out? Well, that doesn't sound very "Champion" to me either. And, I might remind you (again) that currently all trial mechs are pulled from the Champion pool. We want Champion mechs that can work well, under a variety of situations. Two of my Adders shows that rather well (armor values not exact). They may have a heavy close range punch, but they also contain a single ERLL for the moments until you can get close, so one does not have to feel like they need to close. You can bid your time instead. Or even my Hunchback 4J, which has LRMs on it for longer range, and 5 med lasers for any close in work. Never useless, yet very effective. Even my Triple ERLL Crab can handle any range, as well as my Crab 20, which is fast but also contains 2 LLs for ranged engagements (which is not overly recommended for new players due to it's XL engine). There are ways to diversify a build and let it remain heavily focused within a specific role. Some of my Summoners have a single LRM10 rack, for longer range engagements with only a single ton of ammo, but can still do considerable damage when up close. Of course, diversified builds does depend upon the weight. Mostly, Lights and Mediums need to specialize or have a very strong focus. Heavies and Assaults can typically fit in some diverse payloads without hindering it's stronger focus.

I have many builds that have diversified loadouts. My Griffin 3M. My Atlas 7S (x2). Shadowhawk 2D2. (And not, not all of these would be mechs I'd consider good for Trials or not players. Oh, and same as above, all builds typically don't shot true armor allocation.) I've had very good results with mix loadout builds. All of the builds I've posted here have stood the test of time. No matter how the meta changes, these builds have remained as staples within my mechbays, and they continue to serve me very well. I can tell you my 4J has remained almost unchanged since I first bought and customized it (I've added in TAG since then), and it was my first mech in this game. That means it's survived all the changes to R&R, LRMs, introduction of ECM and Radar Dep, "The Quirkening", Ghost Heat... And it will continue to work well even in the Energy Draw system from the looks of it.

A Champion mech is not defined by it's "c-bill value", but should be designed as a mech that performs reliably and is easy to use. Don't let the term "Champion" fool you though, as recall that all Trial mechs are Champion builds. If a mech does better in a Std engine, than it should come with one. Not an XL just so you can legitimize the extra MC cost. We need people to be aware that all Champion builds (until otherwise can be stated) become trial mechs and form the pool of selections for the trial mechs. And, we need to keep in mind that Trial mechs are predominately used by new players as their first few mechs into the game. These are things that should be considered when a champion build is being determined. If the Champions are not good for new players, they very well may become frustrated and leave the game. I'd rather see more people play and enjoy this game, with as little frustration as we can manage. Good, easy to use Trial mechs can go a long ways towards helping them.

PS: This thread is addressing one aspect of "the new player experience". I'm not going to design a mega thread to try and address all issues within the game at once. That would be very long and hard to follow. So, I tried to keep the topic of this thread concise and to a specific point.

#126 Koniving

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 10:33 AM

So I was messaged and asked...

And no, Champions were not originally around when trial mechs were.

Basic trial mechs were stock tabletop mechs which while pretty sweet in their native environment, in MWO the three to 19 times firing rate for weapons meant that standard heatsinks didn't have a chance and slim pickings for ammo which could last several minutes for tabletop mechs might last less than 17 seconds in MWO.

Champion mechs were added as one of several pay schemes to try and encourage players to buy already existing mechs without having to build yet another hero for each chassis. The very first one was designed by the community and came in the form of the Dragon 5n(c) which used a Gauss and two large lasers. My opinion on the model when it later became a trial mech.


The separation of the Champion and the addition of the champions as trials was a single patch which back then was about 2 weeks. Might have been two patches so a month at most but definitely at least two weeks difference. Originally it was just to encourage people to buy it as an option to try it.

My opinion on it much later, possibly after some Dragon hitbox tweaks but before quirks:


It didn't officially 'replace' trial mechs until there were four champions and even then, later on when Clan mechs were added there were just stock Clan mechs.

#127 RAM

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 03:38 AM

View PostTesunie, on 28 September 2016 - 09:13 AM, said:


Okay, I've come to a conclusion. Although I've asked a friend for some information before I respond with it, I've come to a determination that it doesn't matter if Champion mechs where made first or not. They are currently always the mechs to be added into the Trial mech pool, so their builds should always be considered as what would benefit the trial mech system. It's how they are currently. Whatever they were in the past is very much irrelevant.

Now, to the questions:
1. Seriously? Okay, logically thinking about this, whom is most likely to use a trial mech? Someone who already owns a bunch of mechs (many vets own 50+ mechs), or a new player that doesn't own any mechs yet at all? Someone who already is experienced with mech building construction and will adjust their own mech and know how weapons behave (vet), or someone who doesn't own any mechs and doesn't know how many/all weapons in the game even work (new player)? I don't need any statistical data on this to give you a very well educated guess that trial mechs are probably used mostly by new players, with maybe the occational drop from a Vet checking something out or needing a quick fill in for a FP drop deck. AKA: The new players are almost exclusively relying on the trial mechs. Where as the Vet player will rarely if ever even consider looking at them. (I know I haven't used a Trial mech in years.)

2. Actually, at the current standing in this game, yes. Trial mechs are Champion mechs. All current Trial mechs are pulled from the Champion Mech Pool. Now, if PGI created some Champion mechs that were never intended to go into the Trial cycle, you'd have more of a point. However, as every Champion build I know of has resided in the Trial mech slot at some time (if not several times)... I'd like to also ask, whom do you think those Champion sales are for? Whom do you honestly think are purchasing those mastery packs? Most of them are new players, because the Mastery pack can give them three mechs without any wait time in game. It gives them the three needed variants of the same chassis to be able to level their skills right to mastery. One mech is a Champion build, which should (in theory) not need any customizing to work, as it should work decent right out of the box. Then there is the Hero mech (the only reason a Vet might consider the pack), which has that nice +30% C-bill generator. Then a standard variant, something to customize once you've figured the game out more.

3. That may be you, but I can say that most vets (you do consider yourself a vet, correct? You've been around at least the forums since 2012.) don't really have any Champion mechs, or if they do it's probably was earned as a prize from an event, much like my Centurion and Jeagermech Champions I own. I did not purchase them. Most vets see Champion mechs as irrelevant. Why pay MC for something you can get for C-bills/free? The (originally +10%) +30% exp normally isn't considered worth the MC expense, as once the mech is mastered it becomes almost useless. (It does boost GXP gained, but very minimally.) Most vet players would rather spend MC on a hero mech rather than a Champion mech. This reinforces my statement that Champion Mechs should be designed to be Trial mechs, and that Trial mechs should be geared more towards new players. Even Tina agreed, and soon we shall see if PGI does too if they change their Champion build entree system to match.

4. I'll counter your remark with a simple statement: Who is more likely to actually "test" something in this game? And, how are you likely to test something, presumably new, when all the trial mechs end up almost the same? Need I remind you on how many of the new trials have LPLs in them? Which also leads to some more of my points. Trials are intended for new players, not strictly only for new players. And... Need I remind that Tina works for PGI? I think that's a semi-official statement from PGI right there. And, do you believe that PGI will respond to a question of "are trial mechs geared towards new players"? Probably not.
PS: IGP is no longer in the picture...

5. I believe you are repeating yourself here. And, you've yet to prove your first statement that Trial mechs (and thus the Champion mechs that form the pool of Trial mech options currently) are not intended to help new players. Helping new players helps increase the pool of potential purchases. Champion mechs also help new players far more than they do vet players, and that's just by the nature of their exp boost. Vet players normally don't need any exp boosting, as Premium Time is more effective, or just playing the game. For the tiny amount of GXP extra it may grant is minimal compared to what premium time could give them. Plus, most people who consider themselves vets also have a lot of GXP gathered. I know I do at least.

6. So.... Champion builds don't matter is what you are saying? Only that you can get more C-bills when you strip them out? Well, that doesn't sound very "Champion" to me either. And, I might remind you (again) that currently all trial mechs are pulled from the Champion pool. We want Champion mechs that can work well, under a variety of situations. Two of my Adders shows that rather well (armor values not exact). They may have a heavy close range punch, but they also contain a single ERLL for the moments until you can get close, so one does not have to feel like they need to close. You can bid your time instead. Or even my Hunchback 4J, which has LRMs on it for longer range, and 5 med lasers for any close in work. Never useless, yet very effective. Even my Triple ERLL Crab can handle any range, as well as my Crab 20, which is fast but also contains 2 LLs for ranged engagements (which is not overly recommended for new players due to it's XL engine). There are ways to diversify a build and let it remain heavily focused within a specific role. Some of my Summoners have a single LRM10 rack, for longer range engagements with only a single ton of ammo, but can still do considerable damage when up close. Of course, diversified builds does depend upon the weight. Mostly, Lights and Mediums need to specialize or have a very strong focus. Heavies and Assaults can typically fit in some diverse payloads without hindering it's stronger focus.

I have many builds that have diversified loadouts. My Griffin 3M. My Atlas 7S (x2). Shadowhawk 2D2. (And not, not all of these would be mechs I'd consider good for Trials or not players. Oh, and same as above, all builds typically don't shot true armor allocation.) I've had very good results with mix loadout builds. All of the builds I've posted here have stood the test of time. No matter how the meta changes, these builds have remained as staples within my mechbays, and they continue to serve me very well. I can tell you my 4J has remained almost unchanged since I first bought and customized it (I've added in TAG since then), and it was my first mech in this game. That means it's survived all the changes to R&R, LRMs, introduction of ECM and Radar Dep, "The Quirkening", Ghost Heat... And it will continue to work well even in the Energy Draw system from the looks of it.

A Champion mech is not defined by it's "c-bill value", but should be designed as a mech that performs reliably and is easy to use. Don't let the term "Champion" fool you though, as recall that all Trial mechs are Champion builds. If a mech does better in a Std engine, than it should come with one. Not an XL just so you can legitimize the extra MC cost. We need people to be aware that all Champion builds (until otherwise can be stated) become trial mechs and form the pool of selections for the trial mechs. And, we need to keep in mind that Trial mechs are predominately used by new players as their first few mechs into the game. These are things that should be considered when a champion build is being determined. If the Champions are not good for new players, they very well may become frustrated and leave the game. I'd rather see more people play and enjoy this game, with as little frustration as we can manage. Good, easy to use Trial mechs can go a long ways towards helping them.

PS: This thread is addressing one aspect of "the new player experience". I'm not going to design a mega thread to try and address all issues within the game at once. That would be very long and hard to follow. So, I tried to keep the topic of this thread concise and to a specific point.

It actually matters significantly since the Trial system changed before, it could very well change again.


1 - Seriously? Okay, logically thinking about this, who is most likely to purchase a Champion mech? Someone that is brand new to the game or someone that is already invested and has MC to spend? I do not need any statistical data on this to give you a very well educated guess that Champion mechs are probably bought mostly by vets, with maybe the occasional purchase from a new player jumping right in. Ultimately, neither of us knows because the data is simply not available.


2 - The game changes. Yes, today Champions are used as Trial mechs; however, they were not always in the past nor need they always be in the future. I do not believe any purchases/sales are specifically aimed at new players: I think myself and many other vets find value in the sales, especially the Mastery Packs. The Mastery Packs are great; not only are they already 50% off, but when combined with a promotion (sale, extra Premium Time, etc) they are exceptional steals. The last Mastery sale you could buy a pack (which includes 30days active PT) for LESS than the cost of 30days PT! But do I not think new players are dropping money on them like vets do. But again, neither of us knows for sure.


3 - Where do you get your data for “most vets”? You keep throwing out numbers that you simply have no ability to know. Basically everyone in my circle has some Champions - sure, many of them were prizes, but a not insignificant number are from Mastery packs and individual purchases. You pay LESS MC for something that you want and get plenty of bonus too (see above Mastery sales). When the cost of PT exceeds the cost of the Mastery pack, PGI is effectively giving the mechs away. I cannot speak to what ‘most vets do’, nor can you. I can say that even if your speculation is correct that vets prefer Heros over Champions, that could be for whatever reason and does not in any way reinforce your misconception that Champions are Trial mechs. However, I can say that there are Champions that are considered better than their Hero…

Do you really want to get into Community Manager length of service let alone service to the community? I like Tina; she and I have a very good professional relationship and I have enjoyed working with her on Mech_Con. However, I serious question PGI’s use of their Community Manger(s).


4 - The only people testing anything in this game are vets. Who checks hit-boxes? Weapon placement? Lines of Sight and Firing Arcs? Certainly not some new player who cannot figure out how to exit 3PV!

Yes, she does and nowhere in her post does she state “Champions are for new players”. Nor does she even mention Trial mechs. The post is vague and everything she says is open to interpretation. I certainly hope you are not pinning your entire argument on it…

IGP certainly were in the picture when this system was setup, and at no point did they make any statement on it at all, let alone one even remotely in support of your position, but great work stating the obvious!


5 - You seem to be under the rather amusing impression that it is I that needs to prove their position. In fact, it is YOU that has made an assumption (based upon a flawed analysis) and therefore it is YOU that must prove theirs. Indeed, myself and others in this thread have already disproved it. But that is just basic debate. Nevertheless, you seem to also not realize that Trial mechs do not receive their bonus; Champions must be OWNED in order to provide their XP boost. Do you really believe new players are purchasing Champions in any significant number?

The cheapest Champion is $5... But of course, it is $7 for the smallest MC purchase and with the worst conversion rate (we will not even add in the cost of a mech bay which could easily come as a rude surprise). Factor in that most people seem to avoid the cheapest mechs and between the fees and difficulty I am just not seeing a new player making the effort.


6 - Fortunately it matters very little what it sounds like to you, especially since that is not what I said at all. No, YOU want Champions that “work well in a variety of situations” and then you start talking about LRM10s with a single ton of ammo. That is not contributing, that is simply ‘contribution theatre’ - let the newb think he is doing something worthwhile while wasting everyone’s time. At least focused builds are good at their specific focus!

No, that is not what Champions are nor what they were in the past. Just because YOU want Champions to change does not mean they should. Further, despite what you seem to believe Champions ARE indeed distinct from Trials. Continuing to make factually inaccurate statements that you have been informed are wrong utterly destroys your credibility.


Frankly it just sounds like you do not even care about new players, but want to foster your build beliefs onto Champions and are using the NPE cry to make it happen…

If you wanted to actually improve the New Player Experience, you could suggest such novel ideas as applying the boosts to Trial mechs or even allowing access to the XP Skill tree of Trial mechs. Those would be significant improvements; not this childish crusade to nerf Champion mechs.


RAM
ELH

#128 Tesunie

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 10:26 AM

View PostRAM, on 01 October 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:

It actually matters significantly since the Trial system changed before, it could very well change again.


1 - Seriously? Okay, logically thinking about this, who is most likely to purchase a Champion mech? Someone that is brand new to the game or someone that is already invested and has MC to spend? I do not need any statistical data on this to give you a very well educated guess that Champion mechs are probably bought mostly by vets, with maybe the occasional purchase from a new player jumping right in. Ultimately, neither of us knows because the data is simply not available.


2 - The game changes. Yes, today Champions are used as Trial mechs; however, they were not always in the past nor need they always be in the future. I do not believe any purchases/sales are specifically aimed at new players: I think myself and many other vets find value in the sales, especially the Mastery Packs. The Mastery Packs are great; not only are they already 50% off, but when combined with a promotion (sale, extra Premium Time, etc) they are exceptional steals. The last Mastery sale you could buy a pack (which includes 30days active PT) for LESS than the cost of 30days PT! But do I not think new players are dropping money on them like vets do. But again, neither of us knows for sure.


3 - Where do you get your data for “most vets”? You keep throwing out numbers that you simply have no ability to know. Basically everyone in my circle has some Champions - sure, many of them were prizes, but a not insignificant number are from Mastery packs and individual purchases. You pay LESS MC for something that you want and get plenty of bonus too (see above Mastery sales). When the cost of PT exceeds the cost of the Mastery pack, PGI is effectively giving the mechs away. I cannot speak to what ‘most vets do’, nor can you. I can say that even if your speculation is correct that vets prefer Heros over Champions, that could be for whatever reason and does not in any way reinforce your misconception that Champions are Trial mechs. However, I can say that there are Champions that are considered better than their Hero…

Do you really want to get into Community Manager length of service let alone service to the community? I like Tina; she and I have a very good professional relationship and I have enjoyed working with her on Mech_Con. However, I serious question PGI’s use of their Community Manger(s).


4 - The only people testing anything in this game are vets. Who checks hit-boxes? Weapon placement? Lines of Sight and Firing Arcs? Certainly not some new player who cannot figure out how to exit 3PV!

Yes, she does and nowhere in her post does she state “Champions are for new players”. Nor does she even mention Trial mechs. The post is vague and everything she says is open to interpretation. I certainly hope you are not pinning your entire argument on it…

IGP certainly were in the picture when this system was setup, and at no point did they make any statement on it at all, let alone one even remotely in support of your position, but great work stating the obvious!


5 - You seem to be under the rather amusing impression that it is I that needs to prove their position. In fact, it is YOU that has made an assumption (based upon a flawed analysis) and therefore it is YOU that must prove theirs. Indeed, myself and others in this thread have already disproved it. But that is just basic debate. Nevertheless, you seem to also not realize that Trial mechs do not receive their bonus; Champions must be OWNED in order to provide their XP boost. Do you really believe new players are purchasing Champions in any significant number?

The cheapest Champion is $5... But of course, it is $7 for the smallest MC purchase and with the worst conversion rate (we will not even add in the cost of a mech bay which could easily come as a rude surprise). Factor in that most people seem to avoid the cheapest mechs and between the fees and difficulty I am just not seeing a new player making the effort.


6 - Fortunately it matters very little what it sounds like to you, especially since that is not what I said at all. No, YOU want Champions that “work well in a variety of situations” and then you start talking about LRM10s with a single ton of ammo. That is not contributing, that is simply ‘contribution theatre’ - let the newb think he is doing something worthwhile while wasting everyone’s time. At least focused builds are good at their specific focus!

No, that is not what Champions are nor what they were in the past. Just because YOU want Champions to change does not mean they should. Further, despite what you seem to believe Champions ARE indeed distinct from Trials. Continuing to make factually inaccurate statements that you have been informed are wrong utterly destroys your credibility.


Frankly it just sounds like you do not even care about new players, but want to foster your build beliefs onto Champions and are using the NPE cry to make it happen…

If you wanted to actually improve the New Player Experience, you could suggest such novel ideas as applying the boosts to Trial mechs or even allowing access to the XP Skill tree of Trial mechs. Those would be significant improvements; not this childish crusade to nerf Champion mechs.


If and when the Trial Mech selection pool changes again, than things will need to change with it. If and when that happens, than my entire point here will become irrelevant in relation to Champion mech loadouts. Until such time...

1. The common advise from vets is "don't waste your MC on them, buy the C-bill version". Most Champion mechs are typically bought, from my experience and what I've heard, by new players who "liked the trial mech". It's a quick way for a new player to purchase a mech, without needing to grind out the C-bills for it, something most "vets" don't seem to struggle with. This information comes from my typical interactions with new players in the "New Player Help" forum. For most Vets, the added Exp boost from Champion mechs are near worthless, compared to a Hero or Special mech which comes with a +30% C-bill boost, which is considered far more valuable.

2. As stated above, most of my information comes from the "New Player Help" forum. I'm very active in there, and I not only try and provide information and advice, I also read a lot of what other players suggest and advise as well. Most people don't by the Mastery Pack for the Champion mech, but instead for the Hero mech, Premium Time and the fact it comes with 3 variants of the same Chassis. The Champion mech is just an added goody from there. Those Mastery Packs are often recommended to all levels of players as "a good deal" for the reasons you've already stated. They are not considered "a good deal" because they carry a Champion mech. And reminder, for the moment and for the long term foreseeable future, Champion mechs will be comprising the pool of which form the Trial mech selection choices. We should continue to treat them as such, instead of decrying that "they may not be some day in the non-foreseeable future". Plan on what we already know is here or is already announced to be released. Don't plan on things we don't know about, because it may never come to pass.

3. I have not provided any numbers. Only a base line terminology, such as "most" or "typically". I have not made mention of a concrete number, as I have none to give. However, I get my conjecture and theory from the players I typically play with, in the matches as well as from my unit (which has over 200 players in it). Of all the players I've played with, I've typically seen new players forming the bulk of the Trial (and thus also Champion) mech numbers, with the occasional and rare "vet testing the build" or "Vet needed a specific mech weight for their dropdeck". I have also gathered a lot of my "theory" about this from the "New Player Help" forum, which as I've stated I am very active in. I've also generated these statements from some new players I've helped, and I've helped several in my time on MW:O.

The problem with a lot of us "vets" is that we've been playing the game so long we sometimes forget how it was like to be a new player in this game. I've very recently been helping three new players into the game. When I started working with them, they had only been playing for a mater of 2 days. In that time, they were still using Champions, and once they decided and fixed the mechs they wanted (or owned), than they basically stopped playing Trials by their own choosing.

In regards to some Champion mechs being better than Heros... I'm sorry. Yes, some Champion mechs may be classified as "better than a Hero mech", but you see that statement becomes false once you realize that you can obtain that same Champion mech for free (via earning C-bills) as a non-champion mech. Then, the correct statement becomes "This specific variant of this chassis is better than a hero mech", and is irrelevant to it's relationship to the Champion version of said chassis variant. Thus... No. Champion mechs are not inherently better than Hero mechs (and special variants) because the +30% to C-bill boost is considered vastly better than the +30% Exp boost granted by the Champion mech. (AKA: If you are going to spend money on the game, and you have a choice between something that grants 30% exp boost or +30% C-bill boost (everything else identical), the +30% C-bill boost is considered far more helpful to the player for the length of the game. The +30% Exp boost is only helpful for a short time, and then quickly looses it's value.)

As far as the statement about Champions being Trials... They currently are, or rather all champion mechs form the pool by which the trial mech rotation are pulled from. So, Champion mechs form the trials that people are to use, which makes the statement that Champions are trials essentially true. The only way it becomes viewed as false is if someone minces the exact phrasing of it, unto which Champion mechs technically are not trials, but instead form the poll and can become chosen to be a trial mech for a rotation or two... How technical and picky are you going to be here?

4. NOT the kind of testing being referred to above, and you KNOW that. Vets commonly don't go and test out weapon behavior, unless some kind of change was recently altered with them. Typically, new players are exploring the weapon behaviors between the different types of weapons. Most Vets have already experimented with the weapon types, and typically have already figured out that (to name a couple) lasers need to be on target for the full beam duration for maximum effect and know that LRMs are not Fire and Forget weapons and require a lock to be most effective, among other weapon behavior tendencies.

Once more... I'll say it again because your entire argument revolved around "But Champion mechs aren't Trials"... LOOK AT THE TRIAL MECHS IN THE GAME. Now once you do that, come back here. Do they all have or don't have the little (C) indicator saying they are Champion mechs or not? They all have it? Then all Trial mechs are a Champion mech at this currently iteration and moment of the game, and has been so for some time. I suspect that this will not change for some time, if not for the rest of this games life. We currently have NO indication that this feature will change in aspect any time soon. If it does, than my stance will change. Until then, as I've stated before already, we need Champion mechs that are friendly to being Trial mechs. Seen as I have witnessed most Trial mechs (read MOST. Not All. Not "90%". Just "most".) to being used primarily by New Players, than Trial mechs should favor newer players to the game. This thus means, if Champion mechs are forming the pool of Trial mech selection that Champion Mechs also need to follow this rule. This means that Champion mechs need to be New Player friendly because they are Trial mechs. (This is called a logical train of thought, where one aspect effects another and that aspect effects another in a chain of events/concepts/ideas. Trial mechs are used mostly by New Players = Trials are made up of Champion mechs = Champion mechs are used by New Players = Trial/Champion mechs should be designed for new players to use as they are the primary reason for trial mechs.)

5. Really now? You have managed to "disprove" my theory? Really? Without any proof you have disproved my theory on the connection between Trial mechs, Champion mechs, who they are gears and often used for... and I have to provide proof of my statement? You aren't serious, are you? You are? Sorry... You still have as of yet to prove that Champions are NOT trial mechs, and thus should not be new player friendly designs. You also have failed to prove that Trial mechs are designed primarily for Veteran players (which would be the disproof of the fact that the Trial mech system are designed for New Players). You haven't even established any baseline for your reasoning besides "I buy Champions and I'm a Vet". Guess what, that's only a single person (you). Guess what, I DON'T buy champion mechs (the ones I have were earned as rewards for events), and I'm a vet. (Well. That's a 1 to 1 ratio here so far...) I can also say, many of my unit mates (which I might remind is +200 people) do not make a habit of purchasing Champion mechs, and most of the Champion mechs they have were also earned in Events. (So... Tally is... 1 (you) to 200+ (me and my unit).) Then, shall we include my typical findings from the "new player help" forum?

If you REALLY want me to, I can set up a poll, here on this website as well as one in my Unit's forum section. I'm willing to set up a poll and collect factual data (which you may or may not believe the results from my unit side one). This would take time, and honestly would probably be rather pointless overall.

As for Champion builds and their Bonus... I never mentioned it because it is NOT part of the trial system. It is, however, an inherent part of Champions when comparing to something else (such as Heroes and Special mechs). We where talking about the value of OWNING a Champion mech in those places. Not them as Trial mechs (which... I think I have CLEARLY expressed how they are part of the Trial system). Yes, as Trial mechs, they don't have any bonuses, not even Skill unlocks. This actually should emphasize the need to have mechs designed for the Trial system. If anything, it sounds like your argument in this debate should be to make specific trail mechs, separate from the Champion system. Instead, you have chosen to try and announce that Champion mechs are not trial mechs. I beg to disagree here, and I'll let the game be my proof of this. Every Trial mech in the game currently is a champion design. If you wished to argue for a system that makes different designs/builds for trial mechs when compared to Champion mechs, be my guest. However, you are very much incorrect when you say that Trials are not Champion mechs. (And even if you say it the other way "Champions are not Trial mechs", you still are not completely correct, as all currently selected Trial mechs are taken from the pool of Champion mechs. They to are different, yet the same. Champion mechs are not Trial mechs, but Trial mechs are chosen from the pool of Champion mechs. This means that any Champion can be selected to be a Trial mech.)

As for purchasing Champion mechs, and how it applies today (because how it originally came out is irrelevant to this current discussion), the intent behind making Champion mechs the same mechs available for trial mechs was to provide better loadouts (than stock) for new players who could use the better built mechs. Then, from there, new players will then see the Champion mech for sale, go "I liked how that worked" and purchase it. (Possibly without realizing that there are probably better options to purchase with their MC instead.) Some are even "fooled" (and I use this term loosely) into purchasing it because they think they need that specific mech to skill up or for that specific loadout (possibly without realizing they can configure the same base non-champion version into the same loadout and skill it up as well with previously earned experience gained). As I said, I help in the New Player forums a lot. I've heard of many of such tales. (We've even had some of these posted in this very thread.)

6. Questions for you again: When was the last time you actively helped a new player? Teamed up intentionally beside one (not randomly be dropped with one or guess that someone is new in a match)? When was the last time you took time out of your game play to help a new player understand simple things? Or hear how they feel they aren't being useful at all because "I die in 3 seconds!"?

I've been very active helping new players. I don't know about you, but my statements here are in direct relation to what they are saying. My build suggestion about "a little variety" within the builds are in reference to when I started out, and what I tend to find helped me learn to play the game. A single LRM10 launcher on an assault mech for some long range punch in an otherwise brawling mech probably wont detract from it's brawling abilities enough to be a hindrance. A single ERLL on a heavy mech that is otherwise close range also will probably not hinder it's focus. These types of builds, though you can call them "token gestures" within those longer ranges, will let new players feel like they are actively doing something, instead of milling around waiting to get into range, or the ever so much more common "charge" into the enemy team, followed by a quick "rambo" death... Sometimes with 0 damage to their name.

It does depend upon the mech, the intended role/build and what that mech can do. Some mechs need to be focused (most any light mech and some/most medium mechs). Some mechs can deal with a bit of generalization. Some mechs (Crab, Stalker, Atlas, etc) can work with an XL engine, but works better for less skilled players with a Std engine (and I've used my Crabs with each type of engine, and I prefer Std myself for typical play). Some mechs though work well with an XL, no matter the skill level (Grasshopper, Dragon, Quickdraw, most/all Light mechs, most mediums, etc).

I'd also like to mention, what one player thinks is a good new player design might not match another's vision of it. This is fine. However, all I'm trying to point out is that we should consider New Players when we think about the designs. We want new players to do well, not be sabotaged. A couple points more of rear armor is typically a good thing, as most New Players tend to be less observant and get shot in the back more. XL should take more consideration, rather than a "slap it in everything" mentality. Maybe even less specialization and more generalization of the build can be helpful (a long range weapon and/or a weapon to cover a specific blind spot/minimum range, etc).

For example, that double PPC Panther I think could have used either (S)SRMs on it for the 90m minimum range (I've already counted some of these trial builds by just getting into their faces and staying there... sadly). Either that it it's PPCs should have been ERPPCs (probably too hot then), a single PPC and a single ERPPC (still don't like the single arm weapon weakness for a new player, but it would be doable), or even two (ER)LLs and maybe some SRMs ((ER)LLs are good at any range). For a more experienced player, the double PPC Panther is a fine build, just not one I'd recommend for a new player.
For the Crab build, triple LPLs probably runs hot (maybe too hot, have not tested it yet), but I'm not that concerned about it's weapons. the LPLs are reasonable, even for a new player. The one sided nature of it is not exactly new player friendly though, and I'd love to have seen one LPL placed on the other arm. Sadly, this build probably requires an XL to even function, which is the biggest killer for that Crab design with me for a new player. For an experienced player who will twist damage around, it sounds like a great build.

I've never once said that the Champion builds are bad, just that they are "bad" for new players (not new player friendly). And not even all of them, but some of them. Some of them are perfectly reasonable Champions, even though I would have preferred more weapon variety among all the trial selections. (A lot of LPLs this time around it felt like.)


As far as trying to improve/change the NPE, Trials are their first introduction to mech combat. Improving the Trials to better match their skill levels would improve their experience. There are, of course, other things that could be suggested to improve new player's introduction to MW:O. The Champions and their proposed build construction is just one means to that end. I'd rather not make a "mega post/thread" about all the possible ways to improve the game's introduction. There are many concepts on this, and many ways to do it. However, the one universal that a new player will have access to (unless it is of course changed) is the Trial Mech System. A change here would reflect and possibly improve the whole NPE across the entire board. From there, we can make additional (and various, knowing people and these forums) suggestions to approach how to introduce New Players to more advanced mechanics. (And bombarding them with all the information at once doesn't help either...)

Basically, instead of trying to tackle the entire problem and all of it's interstices, I decided to instead make an attempt to sure up the foundation of the NPE (Trial Mech construction, thus Champion mech construction). Every new player will be introduced to the game through some form of the Trial Mech system. Improving those builds to better suit them (instead of vets) is the first step to this process. Once the foundation is solid, than I might create a post addressing some other aspect of the NPE, as it becomes revealed to me via my assistance I render to actual new players. As I encounter a typical problem I see them struggling with, I will see if I can identify it and address it through recommendations on the forums (if I can't solve it personally for them).

#129 C E Dwyer

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 10:38 AM

View PostTesunie, on 20 September 2016 - 11:23 AM, said:


Lets face it. How many "experienced" players use trial mechs? We require trial mechs that are "newb" friendly. If the community is voting for these builds, than we need to consider these facts when we present options and decide to cast our votes. In this, I think we all have failed.


Don't blame me !

Seriously, don't, when I took an interest in the Champion mech builds, I said remember these builds are going to be in the hands of new players, and the choices filled them up with XL engines..for IS mechs..because total newbs under stand torso twist right..

Or Gauss rifles for new starts, because working out the charge mechanism while your dealing with the rest is sensible..

Most of the builds make for a bad experience if your new, but in their defence, they are a lot better than the basic mech

#130 Dee Eight

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 04:05 PM

I am reviving this thread as we have a new round of champion builds to do, and I expect lots will push meta builds that are NOT new player friendly. If you didn't participate in it originally...go read through it from the first posting, BEFORE you rush off to submit your perfect meta build for each of the new champions.

#131 Snazzy Dragon

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 05:26 PM

The trial lights this time around are NOT new player friendly in the slightest beyond the clan heavies and the warhawk.

Mist lynx? Glass cannon Jenner IIC? They are easily neutered and one bad move in thse mechs ends the match. Cheetah was much more forgiving as a trial mech. Commando and panther? They are very niche lights to begin with and the commando has to get into the fray to do work-- not every new player is ready for that. The panther is a terrible choice after the rescale to stick a new player in. The size of a medium with the armor of a light and the speed of a heavy and a tiny armament with weapons that don't work within 90m-- really good new player experience right there.

I don't have a problem with the mediums other than the IS mediums having XL engines-- new players aren't exactly going to be torso twisting at first..

I would never force anyone to pilot a dragon, ever. They are in such a sorry state right now and the trial mech compounds it with its XL. The grasshopper is one of the biggest targets in the game and is prioritized because experienced players know it is a good chassis but is easy to take down. I think a std engine marauder would be a better choice over either of these for a new player. I think the clan heavies are new player friendly enough, though.

As for the assaults

XL Zeus- LOL

LRM Stalker- teaches new players bad habits

Warhawk- too hot without basics but passable

Highlander IIC- massive and slow target

Edited by Snazzy Dragon, 13 January 2017 - 05:27 PM.


#132 MacClearly

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 06:31 PM

Yeah the Crab really mad me angry because it takes out a big part of its charm being tanky. As well I think a five or six med pulse build is easier to manage heat wise and to get into brawling and dps, is better.

Not a fan of the Zues either.

Did see the new poll is up and has the Warhammer. Will be interesting to see what they do with it. Myself I would go lbx10 if I wanted to show someone the chassis who may not be great at managing heat.

#133 Beaching Betty

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 08:32 PM

All of Trials mech builds are trash..





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