132 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Deathlike, on 23 September 2016 - 09:32 AM, said:

That's too hot. 2LPL+3MPL is a lot of tonnage and not realistically enough DHS to run them all. I understand you need staggered fire and firing within their ranges... but when push comes to shove... it's way too damn hot.

Tesunie, on 23 September 2016 - 11:00 AM, said:

Same statement as I have with the new Champion builds. They aren't bad builds, just not what I would be looking for in a trial mech.

I do like your build, but I wouldn't vote for it for several reasons. One is it's heat, though I do get range bracketed builds and using the right weapon in the right ranges when you need cooling.

I still don't really think it's too hot myself even though it definitely does not run cool, but fortunately you could take out the MPL in the head to add 2 more heatsinks which would make a big difference.

Quote

Second is that XL engine.

I'm not knocking your design at all, as I really do like the base concept, but I feel the Crab is better served with a Std engine over an XL engine when it comes to new player use. An XL Crab is far more so for players who know how to utilize it, and they can work but are harder to use well.

The problem with using a STD engine is that you would either end up moving fairly slow or you would have really weak firepower, and I think it's fairly important to have enough of both on a champion build.

If only we had light fusion engines...

Quote

My suggestion to your trial verion of the Crab. I dropped your MPLs and changed them to MLs. This freed up 3 tons to covert your XL engine into a Std engine, letting the Crab move at 87 KPH. I also had to drop two DHS, which did make it less heat efficent than I would have prefered, but within reasonable levesl I think (without going into the game and testing it).

This opens up some zombie ability, and lets them stare down opponents without too much of an issue. It also, as they grow in experience, be able to twist damage to a side. A Crab that helps initially, and for as they gain more experience. (That heat is my biggest concen though...)

I really don't think the decreased heat efficiency and speed is worth the STD engine there.

[Tesunie]

Dee Eight, on 23 September 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

Well how's this... its ammo'ed to wang-zulu, and doesn't overheat. Standard engined, zombie capable, jump capable, and no wasted shield arm (other than that left arm bonus quirk). No complicated skills to learn. Just hose the MG and SRMs at something. MG optimal range is 150m. And yes its a support mech. Assault pilots always seem to demand the lights support them...well...here you go....I spent 1.3 million cbills refitting my white panther to this configuration. to test it out. Three quick games. Consumables are Improved UAV and Artillery Strike. Modules fitted seismic, radar derp, MG range and SRM4 cooldown.

On polar highlands skirmish I emptied the AMS bin shielding all the heavies without the sense to have fitted one to their slow mechs and then had a Shadow Cat flank behind them and core out my CT rear while I kept pace with a Kodiak driver who thought he should do the flanking to chase an urbie, and our only other light (RVN-3L) ran off to play sniper. The team ultimately lost by 12 to 8 but we also experienced a disconnect/lag drop player.

On Grim P skirmish I did better, deployed my Arty on the enemy deathball at echo 8 and put up my UAV in the midst of the ball skirmishing around the buildings there a couple mins later. My MGs and SRMs stripped an arm and SRM launchers from an archer just before he died, and in the end I got eight kill assists and the team finished 12 to 3.

In the bog conquest I raced for theta with a medium lance mate in tow, got to the square as their charlie lance moved on it also, used seismic and UAV to position to ambush, called the UAV and coordinates on VOIP... bravo and charlie was busy nascaring towards kappa and forgot of course sigma behind them on the drop (two other from alpha had to backtrack to it). I got off 158 damage of direct damage mostly onto a kodiak and some to a mad dog. Put my arty down on top of us before I died. The team won and this was my post match result.






[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0b93794160dd812[/smurfy]


This below is my standard white tiger build (camo is the tiger pattern with titanium white, camo light grey, ivory black) with AC2, MG, twin SRM4, 4 JJ, 180XL, full left shield arm. Also more ammo limited with only 3 tons for the AC2 and 1.5 tons for the SRM4s and 0.5 tons for the MG. Only needs two fire groups really (the MG shoot far enough you can combine with the SRM4s) but I run it as three. The AC2 with range module reaches out to 972 meters.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...09a8e6644440822[/smurfy]

AND... if its still ammo usage that bothers folks... then.... this is pretty conservative on ammo usage since its a pair of streak launchers, a pair of ER large lasers and a TAG laser. 200XL, 11 DHS, 2 JJ, only really needs two fire groups ERLLs+TAG and Streaks+TAG, but could run the TAG alone on a third group. 92.6kph without speed skill. No minimum range like the champion picked, virtually the same damage at range for the same heat and better yet, MUCH more range. 742 meters without a module vs 540 for the PPCs.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cdb1e86531e72dc[/smurfy]

I'm not quite sure why I'm reading hotility in your post towards me (hard to get right tone of voice in text and all, so if I'm wrong, forgive me), but I actually liked your builds. I just don't think they are good "trial" mech builds for my stated reasons.

As for your Std engine Panther, I don't think that's a good build. You seem to depend upon those modules. Recall that all trial mechs have no modules installed. So seismic Radar Dep and the consumables can't be included in the build's consideration. Your Std engine Panther honestly has more ammo than it will ever need. 1 ton of MG ammo is normally enough for a match. 2 would be just in case. 4? Unneeded honestly. Take those two tons and place it into a larger engine possibly. AMS is fine, as well as the dual SRM4s. I don't see this build having any reasonable punch, but with ballistic slots on a light mech... That's going to be hard to figure out anyway. My biggest problem with this build? You strapped armor off the legs, and then stashed ammo there. It's a light mech. People will aim for the legs. A lot.

Your "White Tiger" build is very interesting. I find that 2 tons of AC2 ammo is enough to get me through a battle, but different millage per person/build may vary. This would be something I'd have to make a call on after testing out the build a lot first, but I'd be tempted to remove a ton of AC2 ammo for a larger engine. MG and it's ammo might do the same, but that is personal preference and without any testing on it first. Same issue I find as above with the legs, underarmored for a light mech, and then crammed full of ammo. Personal preferences for this of course, but I'd consider testing this out personally, and see if I get better or worse average results. (AKA: I'd have to test it before saying anything for certain. Spreadsheets only tell you so much!)

Your last build I think would make a fine Trial mech. My only complaint would be if there was some way to max armor out on those legs. ERLLs have range and is good close up, the TAG helps with the SSRMs (and some of the team as well), and the SSRMs can help against light mechs. Biggest problem: Where is that BAP for anti-ECM? That should be standard equipment for SSRMs. Sadly, maybe remove the TAG and 1/2 ton of "something" for a BAP? At least for new players... Otherwise, good build suggestion. I do feel it would be better than the current Panther Trial.

[Tesunie]

Pjwned, on 23 September 2016 - 01:53 PM, said:

I really don't think the decreased heat efficiency and speed is worth the STD engine there.

I can understand that. I just don't feel an XL for a new player in a Crab is exactly a good thing. Maybe lose a CT laser for another heatsink?

Me? Personally? I placed up a triple ERLL Crab with a Std engine. Probably could be better without the ML in the head, but I have found it very useful, especially when poking up close. It runs fairly cool and at 81 KPH it is reasonably fast enough. The range can help new players, as they can always be useful, but it can still do reasonably well up close. Has zombie potential. I use this build myself, and I get good results. (Of course, I'm also not a new player so...) (This build could be placed on the 27B for better cooling, or the 27 for better range.)

Extra Light Fusion Engines would be grand right now...

[Dee Eight]

I gave it a few more games after 2 wins and a 1 loss. Next was an assault canyons. Enemy team largely ran the creek bed en masse and went for our cap while our team fought for control of D4. Two other alpha lance members followed me via the opposite edge canyon, I told them on lance chat I'd be stopping at corners to check my seismic. Flushed a cheetah which the streak-dog behind me quickly pulverized. Then him and the other mech moved to the D4 madness as I moved to cap the enemy base after they began capping ours (i was closer to theirs than mine). My team seemed more concerned with killing the few near D4 than the others capping our base and we lost by capture, 6 kills to 3, in only five minutes.

Fifth game was skirmish tournaline (the only map that nascaring could actually be the best plan since the center of the map is the low ground really. I picked up 9 protected light and protected proximity, 5 kill assists, scouting, flanking bonuses. Team won 12 to 1 (and no I wasn't the 1).

Sixth was a grim domination, our team dropped badly and lacked velocity of mechs. As one observed over the radio, we hardly took our time but they already got 38 seconds off the clock before we (well I actually) reached the circle edge and put up a UAV as they moved a lance into near the dish. I moved out to not die first, bled my AMS dry shielding others, then moved to deal with their flankers as our dire wolf decided he should stand alone 500 meters away from the rest of us. I bagged a warhammer for my efforts before dying to a four on one mugging.

So 3 wins 3 losses, died 3 times, 1 kill, twenty or so kill assists. Over 7k XP gained on the mech. I'm happy with the build actually, though I might try it with streak-2s and half a ton less missile ammo and fit a BAP. Less focused damage but better ability to hit quick lights and the extended radar range will help spot targets for LRM mechs. Of course I could also run it more of a harrasser using LRM5s.

[Dee Eight]

Tesunie, on 23 September 2016 - 02:03 PM, said:

I'm not quite sure why I'm reading hotility in your post towards me (hard to get right tone of voice in text and all, so if I'm wrong, forgive me), but I actually liked your builds. I just don't think they are good "trial" mech builds for my stated reasons.

Nope, just giving you other panther build examples of my thinking/liking to peruse. As to the modules and consumables, I will strip and retest for another six games.

[Tesunie]

Dee Eight, on 23 September 2016 - 02:32 PM, said:

Nope, just giving you other panther build examples of my thinking/liking to peruse. As to the modules and consumables, I will strip and retest for another six games.

Please do. I had to remind a lot of people in the voting that "trial mechs have no modules or skills". And they kept right on going "with a UAV, Seismic, X Weapon mods, this think is a beast!"

I've also got some interesting Panther builds. I just don't feel many/any of them would be worthy Trial mechs is all, besides maybe my ERPPC and SRM4 ® version. (I'd have to look at it again for the exact build composition.)

[Deathlike]

Dee Eight, on 23 September 2016 - 01:30 PM, said:

Well how's this... its ammo'ed to wang-zulu, and doesn't overheat. Standard engined, zombie capable, jump capable, and no wasted shield arm (other than that left arm bonus quirk). No complicated skills to learn. Just hose the MG and SRMs at something. MG optimal range is 150m. And yes its a support mech. Assault pilots always seem to demand the lights support them...well...here you go....I spent 1.3 million cbills refitting my white panther to this configuration. to test it out. Three quick games. Consumables are Improved UAV and Artillery Strike. Modules fitted seismic, radar derp, MG range and SRM4 cooldown.

On polar highlands skirmish I emptied the AMS bin shielding all the heavies without the sense to have fitted one to their slow mechs and then had a Shadow Cat flank behind them and core out my CT rear while I kept pace with a Kodiak driver who thought he should do the flanking to chase an urbie, and our only other light (RVN-3L) ran off to play sniper. The team ultimately lost by 12 to 8 but we also experienced a disconnect/lag drop player.

On Grim P skirmish I did better, deployed my Arty on the enemy deathball at echo 8 and put up my UAV in the midst of the ball skirmishing around the buildings there a couple mins later. My MGs and SRMs stripped an arm and SRM launchers from an archer just before he died, and in the end I got eight kill assists and the team finished 12 to 3.

In the bog conquest I raced for theta with a medium lance mate in tow, got to the square as their charlie lance moved on it also, used seismic and UAV to position to ambush, called the UAV and coordinates on VOIP... bravo and charlie was busy nascaring towards kappa and forgot of course sigma behind them on the drop (two other from alpha had to backtrack to it). I got off 158 damage of direct damage mostly onto a kodiak and some to a mad dog. Put my arty down on top of us before I died. The team won and this was my post match result.






[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...0b93794160dd812[/smurfy]


This below is my standard white tiger build (camo is the tiger pattern with titanium white, camo light grey, ivory black) with AC2, MG, twin SRM4, 4 JJ, 180XL, full left shield arm. Also more ammo limited with only 3 tons for the AC2 and 1.5 tons for the SRM4s and 0.5 tons for the MG. Only needs two fire groups really (the MG shoot far enough you can combine with the SRM4s) but I run it as three. The AC2 with range module reaches out to 972 meters.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...09a8e6644440822[/smurfy]

AND... if its still ammo usage that bothers folks... then.... this is pretty conservative on ammo usage since its a pair of streak launchers, a pair of ER large lasers and a TAG laser. 200XL, 11 DHS, 2 JJ, only really needs two fire groups ERLLs+TAG and Streaks+TAG, but could run the TAG alone on a third group. 92.6kph without speed skill. No minimum range like the champion picked, virtually the same damage at range for the same heat and better yet, MUCH more range. 742 meters without a module vs 540 for the PPCs.

[smurfy]http://mwo.smurfy-ne...cdb1e86531e72dc[/smurfy]

The 3 linked are all bad builds.

The first one is too slow, and you're almost better off running a Huginn instead.

The second one... AC2 is not a thing, an inherits the same issue as the first build.

The third build is trying to stack too much weaponry on an already slow mech. A Raven-3L technically does a better job of that w/o the Streaks (higher mounts on the arms) while using ECM despite lacking JJs.

[Dee Eight]

Deathlike, on 23 September 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

The third build is trying to stack too much weaponry on an already slow mech. A Raven-3L technically does a better job of that w/o the Streaks (higher mounts on the arms) while using ECM despite lacking JJs.

Yes but remember, the raven wasn't up as an option for the champion builds... the criteria was panther for the light build, and there's only four variants to pick from. Its all fine and good to compare to another IS light mech that does the same weapon job better but apples and oranges here.

Anyway, retesting my 10P MG/SRM4 build, no consumables or modules. Dropped 2 tons of MG ammo and added another JJ to a leg and a beagle probe.

First game Win... Crimson Skirmish, went to the final 8 seconds on the clock. Night gyr final player on our team (the B with all the LRMs) hunting a weaponless P-hawk... it was hiding C7 in the little cove, sparking away while shutdown. Only I and another player still spectating and watching for him / giving suggestions to find him. I killed a ebon, 257 total damage, 5 assists, died, helped cripple a dire wolf and a black knight in particular.

Second game loss ... Polar Assault, it was a rout. The guy calling the match, which was 1 light each team and the rest all heavies and assaults, did so badly, and basically walked us into a canyon ball of death.

Third game lost .... HPG Dom, came down to a shutdown weaponless mech on our team, and a locust on theirs trying to find ours. Got a kill on a heavy mech though, so my K/D ratio didn't go down at least.

Fourth game LOSS ... HPG Assault, someone asked about basement brawling, I agreed to join him since my weapons are close range, and then after I ran past a gate and locked a target on the outside, he and three others peeked out and then got slaughtered by their whole team, who then pushed into the basement and killed the rest of us, except for the two guys who stayed outside solo spots (an LRM boat mad dog, and a dire wolf which I didn't catch the load out of. Final 12 to 4. At least using light mechs I don't have to wait for matches more than 30 seconds.

Fifth game Loss .... River Conquest, they happened to have a senior HHod player on the other squad, who no doubt called it like a faction game, so they did the push together nascar method of conquest, which quickly led to the demise of a lance of our team and it just went downhill from there. Game lasted 5:30.

Sixth game Win .... Mining Skirmish, 12 to 1. I used my JJs and close range weapons to run down an LRM5 only locust and blew him out from behind with my SRMs. Didn't die which is always a plus. My AMS got a good workout from all the missiles in the air.

After that I decided while I liked it, its not enough to leave it that way so I put it basically back to its original setup with the AC2 and SRM4s, except I left out the MG & half ton of ammo, took out two external heat sinks, and two of the jump jets in order to fit a 225XL and FF armor to max the legs out (as suggested above). I'm 6 pts short (left arm) of maximum armor on it now. Also I changed my black panther (the one with the single ERLL, ML, TAG and twin streaks) to drop the AMS and put a beagle probe in instead (again as suggested above). I run active probes on all my other mechs with streaks I just hadn't bothered on this one before since I wanted the AMS for it.

One caveat to this testing is as I've fully skilled the panther models I put forth builds for, I do still have benefits the new player won't on a trial (same as everyone else's probably champion proposals though). I did take that fact into consideration with several of my submissions though as I don't own any zeus, Hunch IIC, jenner IIC, crab or grasshopers so the builds I presented were without benefit of skill bonuses. I wonder how many others considered the lack of skills bonuses of trial mech users in their proposals ?

[Tesunie]

Dee Eight, on 23 September 2016 - 07:09 PM, said:

One caveat to this testing is as I've fully skilled the panther models I put forth builds for, I do still have benefits the new player won't on a trial (same as everyone else's probably champion proposals though). I did take that fact into consideration with several of my submissions though as I don't own any zeus, Hunch IIC, jenner IIC, crab or grasshopers so the builds I presented were without benefit of skill bonuses. I wonder how many others considered the lack of skills bonuses of trial mech users in their proposals ?

I was kinda afraid of what your results would be once you removed the modules. A properly utilized module can be a real game changer. Something no new player has access to (and neither the trials).

I'd love to hear how the proposed suggestions hold out. If you don't like them, you thankfully can always change it back. That's the fun part about MW:O. Experimentation that doesn't actually cost you anything.


As for the trails being tested with full skills, sadly nothing can be done about that. There is just no real feasible way to test this, short of Private matches with pilot skills and modules turned off...

I will state that my Crab builds where tested and proven with no skills or modules attached. They really didn't change at all (besides the 20) since I first created their concepts.

[Dee Eight]

Well when I buy some zeus, I'll test the efficiency of my build I suggested for the champion since that is one of the variants I'd want to buy anyway. Also someone earlier mentioned putting ER LLs on grasshoppers into the higher torso mounts, and that's fine if you want to hill crest poke, but myself I find splitting them between both arms makes more sense for a champion since losing ONE ST won't eliminate all your heavy firepower, and it also lets you hit UAVs easier.

[Tesunie]

Dee Eight, on 23 September 2016 - 08:16 PM, said:

Well when I buy some zeus, I'll test the efficiency of my build I suggested for the champion since that is one of the variants I'd want to buy anyway. Also someone earlier mentioned putting ER LLs on grasshoppers into the higher torso mounts, and that's fine if you want to hill crest poke, but myself I find splitting them between both arms makes more sense for a champion since losing ONE ST won't eliminate all your heavy firepower, and it also lets you hit UAVs easier.

You would place an ERLL, one in each torso. Probably with an XL engine because Grasshoppers have very large CTs.

My best Grasshopper has 2 LPLs and 2 MPLs with max XL engine and max JJs. Works rather well.

[Dee Eight]

I submitted two, one with an XL and one with a standard.

[RAM]

Tina Benoit, on 22 September 2016 - 04:28 PM, said:

I can see the concern that OP is bringing up and I'm only going to suggest something regarding that for the future Champions.

for 1, I could be more specific in my posts when requesting for builds for the next champions, asking everyone to make sure their submissions are new player friendly, however there's still a chance the same thing will continue to occur the same way as current, where some of you worry it might be a popularity contest or due to being a "meta".

I think most of you agree that you still prefer letting community members make these builds, so maybe instead of having everyone submit a build and then vote, let's add a rule where the person who submits a build HAS to explain how that build will be compatible for new players the most.
Maybe we can even have more detailed discussions elsewhere on some of the specific submitted builds explaining why. We can still use the vote system, and at the end we could also make sure a designer reviews the discussed builds and let them make the final call as to which one would make it, rather than take the build with the highest votes like we have been.

We can try to make a judgment call upon your discussions of the build that most seem to agree for new player compatibility. Not everyone will always come to an agreement, there will most likely be debates where some will disagree but perhaps having us overview everyone's discussions rather than a vote system might just be the better way to pick the one.

You seem to be under the same misconception as the OP that Champions are designed for new players. This is patently false. Certainly, TRIAL mechs are often used by new players; however, while Champions currently are employed in the trial mech role, they were not in the past and they need not solely be in the future. Indeed, utilizing Hero mechs as trials would probably lead to increased sales. Not to mention that Vets also utilize Champions…

In fact, beginners as pointed out previously, can already buy a mech with their training bonus (let alone MC purchases) if they so choose. Not to mention that Champions existed before their use as trial mechs and finally, the issues with the new player experience are independent of Champion mechs.

No the purpose of Champions is to make PGI money and as such considerations for NPE detract from their actual purpose.

Furthermore, trying to make a Champion ‘New Player Friendly’ is not even realistic. The changes introduced with the idiotic Ghost Heat and between it and the equally ridiculous Energy Draw all completely alter the performance of the mech. Mechs that were good became crippled with GH; those that are decent currently will likely be hurt by ED while some that have been out of favour will return to the fore. That is just one system of changes - mech scale, weapon balance and numerous other changes impact Champion builds. As balance is always changing it makes little to no sense trying to optimise a build for the generic ‘new player’. Essentially we can replace all the “it was meta at the time” with “it was NPE at the time” for all the good that would do.

What Champion builds should focus on is VALUE; their pricing being fixed at +25% MC above the stock variant. They should avoid duplicating previous Special mech variants (Founders, Invasion, Resistance, Origins, etc) and ideally focus on the cheapest MC variant. Including ECM if it is a possibility is a must.

Going from a STD to an XL is good; going from an XL to a STD is terrible. Preferably with a multipurpose engine size: 280, 300, etc. Double Heatsinks rather than Single and Endo over Ferro. Expensive weapons over cheaper alternatives (ERLL > LL; LBX10 > AC10). Cram in the electronics. Provide as much bang for the buck as possible!

Ultimately, the OP has identified a long standing issue: that the new player experience is terrible. Unfortunately he has attributed it to the wrong reason. Therefore changing Champions is not the solution he is looking for.


RAM
ELH

[Requiemking]

Ever since they started using Champion mechs as Trials, I've stated that this was a bad idea. Champion mechs do not make good newb mechs for several reasons:

1. They are built for the meta of the time they were created. This means that, should the meta shift for any reason, they are almost instantly irrelevant. Remember the Orion trial? It was built back when range-synergised Brawlers were king. Back then, it was a devastating machine. Nowadays? They are bad unless you get the drop on someone.

2. They are almost always built with advanced techniques in mind. This includes torso-twisting, jump turning, and poptarting. The Commando Champion best exemplifies this, as it had no armor on the left arm, which was intended to be a shield.

3. You can't buy them unless you spend real money on them. I managed to get over 30,000 XP on the Trial Orion, and it is totally worthless unless I drop real money to purchase the mech.

[Intrepid]

Pjwned, on 23 September 2016 - 12:39 AM, said:

I can't tell if you're being serious or not because both of those builds are hideously bad, let alone being represented as a champion build.

Why are you putting 10+ ton ballistic weapons on light mechs when they have to suffer with an atrocious engine rating & bad DPS for such a bad decision, and to top it off terrible sustainability by relying entirely on ammo weapons?

I am so triggered that somebody would even joke about this, let alone be actually serious about it, because it's so bad.

That is what I told him too. Everyone that is anyone says Dee's builds are [dumb]- but no, that could not possibly be it

Requiemking, on 27 September 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

3. You can't buy them unless you spend real money on them. I managed to get over 30,000 XP on the Trial Orion, and it is totally worthless unless I drop real money to purchase the mech.

Or, and I am just throwing this out there, you could spend CBills on the non-Champion version and build it yourself

Edited by Intrepid, 28 February 2017 - 07:06 AM.
Insults? you know better,

[Tesunie]

(Edited for spacing!)

RAM, on 27 September 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

You seem to be under the same misconception as the OP that Champions are designed for new players. This is patently false. Certainly, TRIAL mechs are often used by new players; however, while Champions currently are employed in the trial mech role, they were not in the past and they need not solely be in the future. Indeed, utilizing Hero mechs as trials would probably lead to increased sales. Not to mention that Vets also utilize Champions…

In fact, beginners as pointed out previously, can already buy a mech with their training bonus (let alone MC purchases) if they so choose. Not to mention that Champions existed before their use as trial mechs and finally, the issues with the new player experience are independent of Champion mechs.

No the purpose of Champions is to make PGI money and as such considerations for NPE detract from their actual purpose.

Furthermore, trying to make a Champion ‘New Player Friendly’ is not even realistic. The changes introduced with the idiotic Ghost Heat and between it and the equally ridiculous Energy Draw all completely alter the performance of the mech. Mechs that were good became crippled with GH; those that are decent currently will likely be hurt by ED while some that have been out of favour will return to the fore. That is just one system of changes - mech scale, weapon balance and numerous other changes impact Champion builds. As balance is always changing it makes little to no sense trying to optimise a build for the generic ‘new player’. Essentially we can replace all the “it was meta at the time” with “it was NPE at the time” for all the good that would do.

What Champion builds should focus on is VALUE; their pricing being fixed at +25% MC above the stock variant. They should avoid duplicating previous Special mech variants (Founders, Invasion, Resistance, Origins, etc) and ideally focus on the cheapest MC variant. Including ECM if it is a possibility is a must.

Going from a STD to an XL is good; going from an XL to a STD is terrible. Preferably with a multipurpose engine size: 280, 300, etc. Double Heatsinks rather than Single and Endo over Ferro. Expensive weapons over cheaper alternatives (ERLL > LL; LBX10 > AC10). Cram in the electronics. Provide as much bang for the buck as possible!

Ultimately, the OP has identified a long standing issue: that the new player experience is terrible. Unfortunately he has attributed it to the wrong reason. Therefore changing Champions is not the solution he is looking for.


RAM
ELH

A line of questions for you:
1. Who often uses trial mechs? New players. Most experienced players don't even look at the trial selection (or the Champion selection). There is a reason there was the highly requested feature called "owned" for selection tabs in the mech select screens.

2. When where Champion Mechs first introduced and for what reason? As far as I last recalled, the first Champion build was released as a trial mech and was even sold (for MC) as a booster for new players. It was designed, from the start, to be for the new players. This way they would have trial mechs that could compete better and help them learn, while also providing an easy mech to purchase if you liked them (and provide another income source for PGI). I know of no other reason for them. (Guess why they have an EXP boost on them? To help new players advance a little faster in GXP and in leveling the mech up.)

3. Name some "vets" who would use the trial/champion mechs over their own mechs that they own and can customize? I can't think of any. Basically everyone I know of, once they have their own mechs and have a reasonable amount of them, don't even look at the trials/champions anymore. If they do, it's only to fill out a needed space in a drop deck. If they are truly a "vet", they don't even need that and will grab a mech from their 30+ possible options.

4. Seen as the answer above was basically "New players use Trials, not new players use their own mechs", why does having trial mechs that aren't "new player friendly" a good thing? Why should they be "not new player friendly"? I... can thing of no reason here. I've only heard of new players contemplating Champion mechs as trials and the occasional "I liked the build, so I bought the champion so I wouldn't have to build it" from a new player. I've rarely if ever heard of other players outside that jump on board with the "useless EXP boosting" Champion mechs... (I've heard many people call Champion mechs that. They just aren't worth the MC to purchase. You are often better off with the free C-bill variant and just alter it to the Champion build if anything else. It's what we recommend to new players in the New Player forum all the time.)

5. What is the purpose of champion builds? Your own answer: "No the purpose of Champions is to make PGI money and as such considerations for NPE detract from their actual purpose." This is actually wrong. Yes, Champions can make money for PGI, but their intent was to help new players. If they are not performing that job, should we go back to stock mechs being the trials? At this point, some of them might be better learning mechs (some exaggeration may apply here).

6. What would you consider "New Player Friendly" for mech design? I consider it making a design that is "never useless" when possible, and ones that reflect a mechs strengths and tries to diminish their weaknesses. Just like the XL in the Stalker was decried as a bad Champion build and a horrible Trial for new players (yes, this was a thing), there are things that just don't work well for new players. XL engines on some mechs is fine, but most mechs would work better with a Std engine instead. Such as the Crab would be better with a Std engine over an XL for a new player. The Panther and Grasshopper are fine though with an XL in relation, because those mechs are either light (speed is life) and/or are very XL friendly (Grasshopper is known for having a huge CT). Then we can address weapons after that, and I believe (over the course of the trial mechs currently selected) that they should have a variety of weapons and builds. But, if possible, to not be so focused in one build type that they can't fight any other way. (Ex: If you have a Grasshopper with nothing but SPL (for whatever reason), you probably could/should include a single (ER)LL for some ranged engagement. It should easily have the weight for it. Where as a Jenner probably doesn't have the weight, but does have the speed to be able to use an all close range build.)

Okay... I have to pull this part out seperately and address it:
"Going from a STD to an XL is good; going from an XL to a STD is terrible. Preferably with a multipurpose engine size: 280, 300, etc. Double Heatsinks rather than Single and Endo over Ferro. Expensive weapons over cheaper alternatives (ERLL > LL; LBX10 > AC10). Cram in the electronics. Provide as much bang for the buck as possible!"

Um... What? Champion builds aren't a C-bill source. They become our trial mech pool, and thus should have practical builds for that position and role. Why would I "gimp" a Champion build to "include all the expense" if that kind of a build would not be helpful to the mech or as a trial selection? We are not trying to use Champions as an easy conversion of MC to C-bills... Though I have heard of people doing the number crunching for that, it is not their intended reason for purchase. We should not be considering that when builds are being presented.

Requiemking, on 27 September 2016 - 07:24 AM, said:

Ever since they started using Champion mechs as Trials, I've stated that this was a bad idea. Champion mechs do not make good newb mechs for several reasons:

1. They are built for the meta of the time they were created. This means that, should the meta shift for any reason, they are almost instantly irrelevant. Remember the Orion trial? It was built back when range-synergised Brawlers were king. Back then, it was a devastating machine. Nowadays? They are bad unless you get the drop on someone.

2. They are almost always built with advanced techniques in mind. This includes torso-twisting, jump turning, and poptarting. The Commando Champion best exemplifies this, as it had no armor on the left arm, which was intended to be a shield.

3. You can't buy them unless you spend real money on them. I managed to get over 30,000 XP on the Trial Orion, and it is totally worthless unless I drop real money to purchase the mech.

1. That is the issue I am attempting to confront with this thread. A lot of champions are from metas gone past, and the new champions are built upon the current meta, soon to possibly be a meta gone past... This leaves problems when they are rotated back in at later dates/patches.

2. A mech might have no armor in a location (such as an arm) because that arm carries nothing and to save weight on the mech to be used for something else. I do it with my Panthers and Cicadas. If there is no weapons in an arm location on a mech, I will strip some armor off if I need additional tonnage for something. This is a common thing, even if you don't torso twist and you actually get more from it by not twisting, because then that location might not even get hit at all, making that armor less relevant. No need to armor the arm of a Centurion if you aren't using it to actually shield your mech by twisting... (plus there is nothing there anyway.)

3. The Champion mechs are all built off of a standard Variant of that mech. You should find exp built up on the base variant, and if you purchased that one (or the Champion) you could then unlock skills on that variant. Actually, you wont find the (C) champion variants on the skill leveling selections. Neither will you find any of the (S) variants, (P), ® or (I) (and possibly more). They are all just special skins for a base variant, and share the same skills and exp pool as that base. (So for example, the Crab 27® and the Crab 27 are essentially the same exact mech in all regards. They share the same skill unlocks and place all experience into the same pool. They also have the same exact hardpoint options.)

Edited by Tesunie, 27 September 2016 - 09:06 AM.

[Jables McBarty]

RAM, on 27 September 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

(stuff)

Tesunie, on 27 September 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

(reply to stuff.)

Kinda agree with both of you.

RAM: That Champions shouldn't be the only Trials. I can get behind Heroes, and I'll vouchsafe that, per Stealthrider's post, it's sometimes better to have a couple sub-par Stock builds as trials if they at least introduce variety. I mean, when I was a Trial-only noob, I loved playing the stock EBJ-C as well as the Champion Enforcer.

Tesunie: I'm also inclined to agree that Champions still should be noob-oriented. Whether played as Trials or from a purchased Mastery Pack, it tends to be the newer players that use them. It's impossible to maximize value or even longevity; as long as we are putting decent builds out there that are good for new players in the present and new future, I'd say we're doing fine.

[Tesunie]

Jables McBarty, on 27 September 2016 - 02:31 PM, said:

Tesunie: I'm also inclined to agree that Champions still should be noob-oriented. Whether played as Trials or from a purchased Mastery Pack, it tends to be the newer players that use them. It's impossible to maximize value or even longevity; as long as we are putting decent builds out there that are good for new players in the present and new future, I'd say we're doing fine.

I will say that there are some builds that you can look at and know it will survive beyond the current meta as "a good mech build". It may not be "meta powerful", but it will last through the changes.

I have several builds that, since I created them, have not needed alteration. My 4J hasn't needed any changes since I bought it as my first mech in the game. My triple ERLL Crab has needed no alterations either since it's release (I got it on preorder). There are just some builds, although not "meta" or "super powerful" you can kinda look at and seeing it at least being an average performer for "any length of the foreseeable furture".

The Triple LPL Crab? I see that as being too meta and it will probably not stand up too long before it's consider "what is this piece of garbage" (No, I'm not calling it trash, but I can see people saying it is when the meta shifts). I just don't foresee that build being one to survive the test of ages. It will probably do well, until some quirk pass or new balance mechanic is implemented. (Such as energy Draw for example.)

2 PPC Panther? I just don't see it surviving over the course of changes, and it also doesn't strike me as a good new player mech design. Minimum range. No backup weapon. All PPFLD (Pin point damage) which is good... if you can hit... It's just too reliant on a high skill weapon. I don't mind the PPC being in the trial mech selection, but it should be supported by other weapons to compensate for it's flaws, such as it's minimum range (for the most part).

I do know everyone will have different opinions on what is good, and that is fine. I'm just advising what we should be looking for in a trial/champion build, compared to what we got.

[Intrepid]

Tesunie, on 27 September 2016 - 09:06 AM, said:

2. When where Champion Mechs first introduced and for what reason? As far as I last recalled, the first Champion build was released as a trial mech and was even sold (for MC) as a booster for new players. It was designed, from the start, to be for the new players. This way they would have trial mechs that could compete better and help them learn, while also providing an easy mech to purchase if you liked them (and provide another income source for PGI). I know of no other reason for them. (Guess why they have an EXP boost on them? To help new players advance a little faster in GXP and in leveling the mech up.)

When Champions first debuted, stock mechs were still used as the trials. It took a thread suggesting to that Cicada community manager (Greg? Gus? whatever - he at least interacted with us) to get them changed.

The fact that Champs are only available for MC pretty much precludes them from being for new players. When used as trials, Champs do not get their XP bonus. Champs are used as trials, but not all trials are champs.

For the record, I use trials. Sometimes to fill a need, but also to check out which mechs I might like. As an IS player, I have no Clan mechs so I appreciate the opportunity to try them - and when necessary use them when we signed with Clan factions in the past.

[Gen82]

Do trial mech's need to be brilliant? I just think they should offer as a whole, a variety of play styles and make sense. They don't need to be meta, but perhaps no joke mechs for example.

The complication comes that they are "champion" mechs ...