RAM, on 01 October 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:
It actually matters significantly since the Trial system changed before, it could very well change again.
1 - Seriously? Okay, logically thinking about this, who is most likely to purchase a Champion mech? Someone that is brand new to the game or someone that is already invested and has MC to spend? I do not need any statistical data on this to give you a very well educated guess that Champion mechs are probably bought mostly by vets, with maybe the occasional purchase from a new player jumping right in. Ultimately, neither of us knows because the data is simply not available.
2 - The game changes. Yes, today Champions are used as Trial mechs; however, they were not always in the past nor need they always be in the future. I do not believe any purchases/sales are specifically aimed at new players: I think myself and many other vets find value in the sales, especially the Mastery Packs. The Mastery Packs are great; not only are they already 50% off, but when combined with a promotion (sale, extra Premium Time, etc) they are exceptional steals. The last Mastery sale you could buy a pack (which includes 30days active PT) for LESS than the cost of 30days PT! But do I not think new players are dropping money on them like vets do. But again, neither of us knows for sure.
3 - Where do you get your data for “most vets”? You keep throwing out numbers that you simply have no ability to know. Basically everyone in my circle has some Champions - sure, many of them were prizes, but a not insignificant number are from Mastery packs and individual purchases. You pay LESS MC for something that you want and get plenty of bonus too (see above Mastery sales). When the cost of PT exceeds the cost of the Mastery pack, PGI is effectively giving the mechs away. I cannot speak to what ‘most vets do’, nor can you. I can say that even if your speculation is correct that vets prefer Heros over Champions, that could be for whatever reason and does not in any way reinforce your misconception that Champions are Trial mechs. However, I can say that there are Champions that are considered better than their Hero…
Do you really want to get into Community Manager length of service let alone service to the community? I like Tina; she and I have a very good professional relationship and I have enjoyed working with her on Mech_Con. However, I serious question PGI’s use of their Community Manger(s).
4 - The only people testing anything in this game are vets. Who checks hit-boxes? Weapon placement? Lines of Sight and Firing Arcs? Certainly not some new player who cannot figure out how to exit 3PV!
Yes, she does and nowhere in her post does she state “Champions are for new players”. Nor does she even mention Trial mechs. The post is vague and everything she says is open to interpretation. I certainly hope you are not pinning your entire argument on it…
IGP certainly were in the picture when this system was setup, and at no point did they make any statement on it at all, let alone one even remotely in support of your position, but great work stating the obvious!
5 - You seem to be under the rather amusing impression that it is I that needs to prove their position. In fact, it is YOU that has made an assumption (based upon a flawed analysis) and therefore it is YOU that must prove theirs. Indeed, myself and others in this thread have already disproved it. But that is just basic debate. Nevertheless, you seem to also not realize that Trial mechs do not receive their bonus; Champions must be OWNED in order to provide their XP boost. Do you really believe new players are purchasing Champions in any significant number?
The cheapest Champion is $5... But of course, it is $7 for the smallest MC purchase and with the worst conversion rate (we will not even add in the cost of a mech bay which could easily come as a rude surprise). Factor in that most people seem to avoid the cheapest mechs and between the fees and difficulty I am just not seeing a new player making the effort.
6 - Fortunately it matters very little what it sounds like to you, especially since that is not what I said at all. No, YOU want Champions that “work well in a variety of situations” and then you start talking about LRM10s with a single ton of ammo. That is not contributing, that is simply ‘contribution theatre’ - let the newb think he is doing something worthwhile while wasting everyone’s time. At least focused builds are good at their specific focus!
No, that is not what Champions are nor what they were in the past. Just because YOU want Champions to change does not mean they should. Further, despite what you seem to believe Champions ARE indeed distinct from Trials. Continuing to make factually inaccurate statements that you have been informed are wrong utterly destroys your credibility.
Frankly it just sounds like you do not even care about new players, but want to foster your build beliefs onto Champions and are using the NPE cry to make it happen…
If you wanted to actually improve the New Player Experience, you could suggest such novel ideas as applying the boosts to Trial mechs or even allowing access to the XP Skill tree of Trial mechs. Those would be significant improvements; not this childish crusade to nerf Champion mechs.
If and when the Trial Mech selection pool changes again, than things will need to change with it. If and when that happens, than my entire point here will become irrelevant in relation to Champion mech loadouts. Until such time...
1. The common advise from vets is "don't waste your MC on them, buy the C-bill version". Most Champion mechs are typically bought, from my experience and what I've heard, by new players who "liked the trial mech". It's a quick way for a new player to purchase a mech, without needing to grind out the C-bills for it, something most "vets" don't seem to struggle with. This information comes from my typical interactions with new players in the "New Player Help" forum. For most Vets, the added Exp boost from Champion mechs are near worthless, compared to a Hero or Special mech which comes with a +30% C-bill boost, which is considered far more valuable.
2. As stated above, most of my information comes from the "New Player Help" forum. I'm very active in there, and I not only try and provide information and advice, I also read a lot of what other players suggest and advise as well. Most people don't by the Mastery Pack for the Champion mech, but instead for the Hero mech, Premium Time and the fact it comes with 3 variants of the same Chassis. The Champion mech is just an added goody from there. Those Mastery Packs are often recommended to all levels of players as "a good deal" for the reasons you've already stated. They are not considered "a good deal" because they carry a Champion mech. And reminder, for the moment and for the long term foreseeable future, Champion mechs will be comprising the pool of which form the Trial mech selection choices. We should continue to treat them as such, instead of decrying that "they may not be some day in the non-foreseeable future". Plan on what we already know is here or is already announced to be released. Don't plan on things we don't know about, because it may never come to pass.
3. I have not provided any numbers. Only a base line terminology, such as "most" or "typically". I have not made mention of a concrete number, as I have none to give. However, I get my conjecture and theory from the players I typically play with, in the matches as well as from my unit (which has over 200 players in it). Of all the players I've played with, I've typically seen new players forming the bulk of the Trial (and thus also Champion) mech numbers, with the occasional and rare "vet testing the build" or "Vet needed a specific mech weight for their dropdeck". I have also gathered a lot of my "theory" about this from the "New Player Help" forum, which as I've stated I am very active in. I've also generated these statements from some new players I've helped, and I've helped several in my time on MW:O.
The problem with a lot of us "vets" is that we've been playing the game so long we sometimes forget how it was like to be a new player in this game. I've very recently been helping three new players into the game. When I started working with them, they had only been playing for a mater of 2 days. In that time, they were still using Champions, and once they decided and fixed the mechs they wanted (or owned), than they basically stopped playing Trials by their own choosing.
In regards to some Champion mechs being better than Heros... I'm sorry. Yes, some Champion mechs may be classified as "better than a Hero mech", but you see that statement becomes false once you realize that you can obtain that same Champion mech for free (via earning C-bills) as a non-champion mech. Then, the correct statement becomes "This specific variant of this chassis is better than a hero mech", and is irrelevant to it's relationship to the Champion version of said chassis variant. Thus... No. Champion mechs are not inherently better than Hero mechs (and special variants) because the +30% to C-bill boost is considered vastly better than the +30% Exp boost granted by the Champion mech. (AKA: If you are going to spend money on the game, and you have a choice between something that grants 30% exp boost or +30% C-bill boost (everything else identical), the +30% C-bill boost is considered far more helpful to the player for the length of the game. The +30% Exp boost is only helpful for a short time, and then quickly looses it's value.)
As far as the statement about Champions being Trials... They currently are, or rather all champion mechs form the pool by which the trial mech rotation are pulled from. So, Champion mechs form the trials that people are to use, which makes the statement that Champions are trials essentially true. The only way it becomes viewed as false is if someone minces the exact phrasing of it, unto which Champion mechs technically are not trials, but instead form the poll and can become chosen to be a trial mech for a rotation or two... How technical and picky are you going to be here?
4. NOT the kind of testing being referred to above, and you KNOW that. Vets commonly don't go and test out weapon behavior, unless some kind of change was recently altered with them. Typically, new players are exploring the weapon behaviors between the different types of weapons. Most Vets have already experimented with the weapon types, and typically have already figured out that (to name a couple) lasers need to be on target for the full beam duration for maximum effect and know that LRMs are not Fire and Forget weapons and require a lock to be most effective, among other weapon behavior tendencies.
Once more... I'll say it again because your entire argument revolved around "But Champion mechs aren't Trials"... LOOK AT THE TRIAL MECHS IN THE GAME. Now once you do that, come back here. Do they all have or don't have the little (C) indicator saying they are Champion mechs or not? They all have it? Then all Trial mechs are a Champion mech at this currently iteration and moment of the game, and has been so for some time. I suspect that this will not change for some time, if not for the rest of this games life. We currently have NO indication that this feature will change in aspect any time soon. If it does, than my stance will change. Until then, as I've stated before already, we need Champion mechs that are friendly to being Trial mechs. Seen as I have witnessed most Trial mechs (read MOST. Not All. Not "90%". Just "most".) to being used primarily by New Players, than Trial mechs should favor newer players to the game. This thus means, if Champion mechs are forming the pool of Trial mech selection that Champion Mechs also need to follow this rule. This means that Champion mechs need to be New Player friendly because they are Trial mechs. (This is called a logical train of thought, where one aspect effects another and that aspect effects another in a chain of events/concepts/ideas. Trial mechs are used mostly by New Players = Trials are made up of Champion mechs = Champion mechs are used by New Players = Trial/Champion mechs should be designed for new players to use as they are the primary reason for trial mechs.)
5. Really now? You have managed to "disprove" my theory? Really? Without any proof you have disproved my theory on the connection between Trial mechs, Champion mechs, who they are gears and often used for... and I have to provide proof of my statement? You aren't serious, are you? You are? Sorry... You still have as of yet to prove that Champions are NOT trial mechs, and thus should not be new player friendly designs. You also have failed to prove that Trial mechs are designed primarily for Veteran players (which would be the disproof of the fact that the Trial mech system are designed for New Players). You haven't even established any baseline for your reasoning besides "I buy Champions and I'm a Vet". Guess what, that's only a single person (you). Guess what, I DON'T buy champion mechs (the ones I have were earned as rewards for events), and I'm a vet. (Well. That's a 1 to 1 ratio here so far...) I can also say, many of my unit mates (which I might remind is +200 people) do not make a habit of purchasing Champion mechs, and most of the Champion mechs they have were also earned in Events. (So... Tally is... 1 (you) to 200+ (me and my unit).) Then, shall we include my typical findings from the "new player help" forum?
If you REALLY want me to, I can set up a poll, here on this website as well as one in my Unit's forum section. I'm willing to set up a poll and collect factual data (which you may or may not believe the results from my unit side one). This would take time, and honestly would probably be rather pointless overall.
As for Champion builds and their Bonus... I never mentioned it because it is NOT part of the trial system. It is, however, an inherent part of Champions when comparing to something else (such as Heroes and Special mechs). We where talking about the value of OWNING a Champion mech in those places. Not them as Trial mechs (which... I think I have CLEARLY expressed how they are part of the Trial system). Yes, as Trial mechs, they don't have any bonuses, not even Skill unlocks. This actually should emphasize the need to have mechs designed for the Trial system. If anything, it sounds like your argument in this debate should be to make specific trail mechs, separate from the Champion system. Instead, you have chosen to try and announce that Champion mechs are not trial mechs. I beg to disagree here, and I'll let the game be my proof of this. Every Trial mech in the game currently is a champion design. If you wished to argue for a system that makes different designs/builds for trial mechs when compared to Champion mechs, be my guest. However, you are very much incorrect when you say that Trials are not Champion mechs. (And even if you say it the other way "Champions are not Trial mechs", you still are not completely correct, as all currently selected Trial mechs are taken from the pool of Champion mechs. They to are different, yet the same. Champion mechs are not Trial mechs, but Trial mechs are chosen from the pool of Champion mechs. This means that any Champion can be selected to be a Trial mech.)
As for purchasing Champion mechs, and how it applies today (because how it originally came out is irrelevant to this current discussion), the intent behind making Champion mechs the same mechs available for trial mechs was to provide better loadouts (than stock) for new players who could use the better built mechs. Then, from there, new players will then see the Champion mech for sale, go "I liked how that worked" and purchase it. (Possibly without realizing that there are probably better options to purchase with their MC instead.) Some are even "fooled" (and I use this term loosely) into purchasing it because they think they need that specific mech to skill up or for that specific loadout (possibly without realizing they can configure the same base non-champion version into the same loadout and skill it up as well with previously earned experience gained). As I said, I help in the New Player forums a lot. I've heard of many of such tales. (We've even had some of these posted in this very thread.)
6. Questions for you again: When was the last time you actively helped a new player? Teamed up intentionally beside one (not randomly be dropped with one or guess that someone is new in a match)? When was the last time you took time out of your game play to help a new player understand simple things? Or hear how they feel they aren't being useful at all because "I die in 3 seconds!"?
I've been very active helping new players. I don't know about you, but my statements here are in direct relation to what they are saying. My build suggestion about "a little variety" within the builds are in reference to when I started out, and what I tend to find helped me learn to play the game. A single LRM10 launcher on an assault mech for some long range punch in an otherwise brawling mech probably wont detract from it's brawling abilities enough to be a hindrance. A single ERLL on a heavy mech that is otherwise close range also will probably not hinder it's focus. These types of builds, though you can call them "token gestures" within those longer ranges, will let new players feel like they are actively doing something, instead of milling around waiting to get into range, or the ever so much more common "charge" into the enemy team, followed by a quick "rambo" death... Sometimes with 0 damage to their name.
It does depend upon the mech, the intended role/build and what that mech can do. Some mechs need to be focused (most any light mech and some/most medium mechs). Some mechs can deal with a bit of generalization. Some mechs (Crab, Stalker, Atlas, etc) can work with an XL engine, but works better for less skilled players with a Std engine (and I've used my Crabs with each type of engine, and I prefer Std myself for typical play). Some mechs though work well with an XL, no matter the skill level (Grasshopper, Dragon, Quickdraw, most/all Light mechs, most mediums, etc).
I'd also like to mention, what one player thinks is a good new player design might not match another's vision of it. This is fine. However, all I'm trying to point out is that we should consider New Players when we think about the designs. We want new players to do well, not be sabotaged. A couple points more of rear armor is typically a good thing, as most New Players tend to be less observant and get shot in the back more. XL should take more consideration, rather than a "slap it in everything" mentality. Maybe even less specialization and more generalization of the build can be helpful (a long range weapon and/or a weapon to cover a specific blind spot/minimum range, etc).
For example, that double PPC Panther I think could have used either (S)SRMs on it for the 90m minimum range (I've already counted some of these trial builds by just getting into their faces and staying there... sadly). Either that it it's PPCs should have been ERPPCs (probably too hot then), a single PPC and a single ERPPC (still don't like the single arm weapon weakness for a new player, but it would be doable), or even two (ER)LLs and maybe some SRMs ((ER)LLs are good at any range). For a more experienced player, the double PPC Panther is a fine build, just not one I'd recommend for a new player.
For the Crab build, triple LPLs probably runs hot (maybe too hot, have not tested it yet), but I'm not that concerned about it's weapons. the LPLs are reasonable, even for a new player. The one sided nature of it is not exactly new player friendly though, and I'd love to have seen one LPL placed on the other arm. Sadly, this build probably requires an XL to even function, which is the biggest killer for that Crab design with me for a new player. For an experienced player who will twist damage around, it sounds like a great build.
I've never once said that the Champion builds are bad, just that they are "bad" for new players (not new player friendly). And not even all of them, but some of them. Some of them are perfectly reasonable Champions, even though I would have preferred more weapon variety among all the trial selections. (A lot of LPLs this time around it felt like.)
As far as trying to improve/change the NPE, Trials are their first introduction to mech combat. Improving the Trials to better match their skill levels would improve their experience. There are, of course, other things that could be suggested to improve new player's introduction to MW:O. The Champions and their proposed build construction is just one means to that end. I'd rather not make a "mega post/thread" about all the possible ways to improve the game's introduction. There are many concepts on this, and many ways to do it. However, the one universal that a new player will have access to (unless it is of course changed) is the Trial Mech System. A change here would reflect and possibly improve the whole NPE across the entire board. From there, we can make additional (and various, knowing people and these forums) suggestions to approach how to introduce New Players to more advanced mechanics. (And bombarding them with all the information at once doesn't help either...)
Basically, instead of trying to tackle the entire problem and all of it's interstices, I decided to instead make an attempt to sure up the foundation of the NPE (Trial Mech construction, thus Champion mech construction). Every new player will be introduced to the game through some form of the Trial Mech system. Improving those builds to better suit them (instead of vets) is the first step to this process. Once the foundation is solid, than I might create a post addressing some other aspect of the NPE, as it becomes revealed to me via my assistance I render to actual new players. As I encounter a typical problem I see them struggling with, I will see if I can identify it and address it through recommendations on the forums (if I can't solve it personally for them).
2
