42 replies to this topic

[GreyNovember]

Let me see if I have any reading comprehension.

You propose, for example.

A Myst Lynx with 1 ERPPC.

The mech can fire that PPC as per normal. This is what qualifies as an "Alpha Strike" as we know it now.

You are proposing a different concept, which you are calling an "Alpha Strike", and designating our concept as a "Beta strike."

If the mech uses your new method, it'll overcharge the weapon and risk blowing it up.

But it can also just chill and do it's usual thing.

Did I get that right?

I'd be fine with forcing weapon damage, TBH.

> Good lord people, someone puts an idea forward, and you spare no hesitation jumping down their throats and depositing feces. God forbid we discuss anything you don't agree wih.

Edited by GreyNovember, 07 October 2016 - 03:09 AM.

[razenWing]

GreyNovember, on 07 October 2016 - 03:07 AM, said:

Let me see if I have any reading comprehension.

You propose, for example.

A Myst Lynx with 1 ERPPC.

The mech can fire that PPC as per normal. This is what qualifies as an "Alpha Strike" as we know it now.

You are proposing a different concept, which you are calling an "Alpha Strike", and designating our concept as a "Beta strike."

If the mech uses your new method, it'll overcharge the weapon and risk blowing it up.

But it can also just chill and do it's usual thing.

Did I get that right?

I'd be fine with forcing weapon damage, TBH.

> Good lord people, someone puts an idea forward, and you spare no hesitation jumping down their throats and depositing feces. God forbid we discuss anything you don't agree wih.

Yup =) Thanks for understanding! You are awesome, my man. You just restored my faith in humanity. (also the new method uses the "fabled" Alpha Strike button, which is the backslash '\' key on the keyboard. just want to clarify for those people that didn't think the original post was clear enough.)

------------

Also Wolf Ender, I disagreed that it will be abused. 15% might not seem like a lot, but how many times do you fire a game? And with mechs usually carrying more than 6 weapons, you have to weigh whether a particular situation is going to worth the risk. It can pay off big, or it can potentially sink you.

Edited by razenWing, 07 October 2016 - 03:57 AM.

[GreyNovember]

You might want to rethink your choice of wording, and edit your OP.

"TL;DR: Supercharged shot option. Big bonuses. Big penalties."

As evidenced by the first page, people don't have the patience to legitimately read a post.

That said.

What you are proposing is likely going to be either an opening shot, or a desperate, last second shot. In the first scenario, you inflict damage on yourself, to capitalize on initiative. In the second, you want o bring someone down with you.

Both of which are really only going to speed up the rate mechs die.

It'll be used. At the very least, in the second scenario.

The question is, do you think that's a good thing?

If something is an auto include in a deck with card games, people tend to get sick of seeing it.

[Tarogato]

Sounds dumb, and adds unnecessary complexity on top of what we already have.

[razenWing]

Tarogato, on 07 October 2016 - 05:59 AM, said:

Sounds dumb, and adds unnecessary complexity on top of what we already have.

Is it really that complex to have one more button to push?



edit: no, it's not even one MORE button. it's the same button that already existed... so...

Edited by razenWing, 07 October 2016 - 06:27 AM.

[lagartx3]

RestosIII, on 06 October 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

So... firing double large pulse lasers on the Shadowcat has a 15% chance of destroying its own weapons? Best plan 2016. And don't forget the fact that light mechs are now suddenly incapable of doing any damage without destroying their own weaponry.



At least MGs will have a use now because you'll stick a single one of them on your mech and fire literally every weapon BUT it so that you can technically not be alpha striking.

I dont think you got the idea mate. read the thing again

[Tarogato]

razenWing, on 07 October 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

Is it really that complex to have one more button to push?



edit: no, it's not even one MORE button. it's the same button that already existed... so...

I don't care if it somehow subtracted from the amount of buttons you have to bind and use. What it adds is a new mechanic, in addition to everything we already have.

[Sjorpha]

Why do we have to keep discussing pie in the sky "solutions" to this imaginary "problem" of alpha strikes.

Alpha strike is just another word for firing all your guns, nothing special about it. Alpha strikes are not a problem. If ttk is too low or damage spiking is too high then there are already plenty of values from heat capacity to weapon cooldown, damage, armour values and so on that can be tweaked to address it.

[razenWing]

Sjorpha, on 07 October 2016 - 06:35 AM, said:

Why do we have to keep discussing pie in the sky "solutions" to this imaginary "problem" of alpha strikes.

Alpha strike is just another word for firing all your guns, nothing special about it. Alpha strikes are not a problem. If ttk is too low or damage spiking is too high then there are already plenty of values from heat capacity to weapon cooldown, damage, armour values and so on that can be tweaked to address it.

Note how I never claim that I am fixing any problem like TTK or whatever. Cause.. I am not.

I am proposing a new mechanics that may add another layer of depth to the gameplay. Why does everything have to fix something?

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Lets not give our balance overlords a new reason to nerf weapon systems into the ground...

Theres already a camp of people who dislike alpha strikes when people other then themselves use them...

"Omg this hacker scrub guy killed me with his OP alpha strike when I turned the corner! All his weapons magically went straight to my locust's center torso while I was shut down and i died! Please nerf every weapon he was using!!!

[Sjorpha]

razenWing, on 07 October 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

Note how I never claim that I am fixing any problem like TTK or whatever. Cause.. I am not.

I am proposing a new mechanics that may add another layer of depth to the gameplay. Why does everything have to fix something?

Right, sorry.

I don't think increasing the maximum spike damage is a good idea though, alphas are big enough.

[Mole]

I never even use the alpha strike button. When I want to alpha strike I just tend to mash all my weapon groups at the same time. I dunno. This game already has complaints about low TTK, and giving people the option to decrease TTK like this seems like something both the community at large and PGI do not want.

Edited by Mole, 07 October 2016 - 09:25 AM.

[Single Mom]

Friday forum garbage never fails to impress. Why attempt to fix a nonexistent "lame weapon grouping" problem by exacerbating a very real "too much alpha" problem? While this thread is still high up, lets use the term beta strike some more.

[Andi Nagasia]

I'm sorry but right now PGI is looking to systems that will reduce alpha strikes damage,
And then so doing increase TTK, From this topic it seems like the exact opposite,

You are proposing to allow for more damage on an alpha strike,
And a lot of cases this could literally break the game in allow one shots,

With a this you could run on 8ER PPC Dire star and 1shot more often,
This would allow for you to get 4 or 5 shots off with such a build assuming RNGesus blesses you,

For these reasons stated above I would have to say I cannot support this idea or concept,
Poor what it will do to cut I'm to kill and mac battles in general making everything up peek contest,

[lagartx3]

razenWing, on 06 October 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

For too long, Alpha Strike is essentially the same button as group 1 or group 2 due to people grouping calculated high Alpha attack without incurring ghost heat.

Well, this isn't so much a problem, as it's extremely lame.

To me, an alpha strike is an massive damage booster. I mean, just sound it out.... ALPHA STRIKE... how macho is that, right? It should signify something more than just group 1 or group 2 substitute.

So this is how I envision a reworked Alpha Strike, and possible lore explanation behind it:
----------------

Alpha Strike:

During a battlemech's desperate struggle for survival, a pilot may overcharge their fusion core to apply additional energies onto their weapons. A battlemech's on-board targeting computer will automatically overcharge laser barrels, pressurized ballistic barrels, and removed the safety lock of missiles. However, such an awesome attack may incur additional heat and component damage for operating outside the design boundary.

- actual in-game mechanics:
Every time an Alpha Strike occur, you deal 50% additional damage for 50% additional heat.

Every time an Alpha Strike occur, most of your weapons have a 15% chance of being disabled/self destruct. Weapons that are disabled will not suffer component damage, but merely removed from use for the rest of the game. Weapon that self destruct will incur twice the damage to the component that host the weapon. For example, an AC 20 explosion will incur 40 damage onto itself. Any leftover damage is transferred to nearby components. (This will be deducted from internal first)

Low heat weapon such as gauss rifle will instead suffer a 35% cataclysmic failure rate, and will explode should such failure occur. (However, manual charge time is removed for such an attack)

LRMs do not get a damage boost, as their damage are not from kinetic and/or chemical energy. Rather, the IS launchers will have minimal firing distance removed while Clan launchers will remove the reduce damage at short range and simultaneously fire all missiles like IS launchers.

LRMs will suffer 25% failure rate from missiles exploding prematurely. Damage to self will be calculated based on the total damage of the missiles. For example, an LRM 20 will deal 20 damage unto the mech itself should the missile failed.

SRM warheads are armed at firing, so Alpha Strike will instead calculate a tighter path. Meaning, even at 270 m max range, all missiles will impact in pinpoint damage manner. However, this new safety-off flight path may incur identical penalty as LRM launchers. (25% chance of premature missile impact)

It is worth noting that both LRM and SRM missiles self-inflicted damage will deduct from the armor in a spread pattern rather than from internals like ballistics. (Kinda like those old timey cartoons where the wiley coyote had the bomb exploding onto his face)

Streak function the exact same way as regular SRMs with the lock-on requirement removed. So during Alpha Strike, it's entirely possible to streak a friendly.

Flamers: During Alpha Strike, super hot plasma is injected directly. Your flamer will heat enemy mech twice as fast for the duration of 1.5 seconds and will override the 90% ceiling cap.
---------------------------------------------------------

This is a high risk high reward gambit. If you carrying 2 medium laser and you press Alpha Strike, you are essentially getting a 3rd laser for free. However, since you are more than likely going to fire more than 5 times a game, continuous use of Alpha strike will almost guarantee some sort of failure.

Players now have a choice to build meta mechs around Alpha Strike (eating the heat without shutdown) or around pseudo Alpha Strike (let's call it Beta Strike) which is simply firing all available weapons based on weapon groups without shutting down.

However, during desperate gambit, it may be worth the heat and weapon failure to turn an 80 point alpha strike damage into a 120 point.

It's also worth noting that if you are boating small weapons, you are almost guarantee to break something for Alpha Striking. 100/15 is only like... 6 or 7. (which is the same as the current SPL/MPL/ML meta without incurring GH)

One more mechanics, Alpha Strike has a 1 second firing delay for allow the fusion core to overcharge and for firing solution to be recalculated. Thus, I would recommend against using Alpha Strike unless you have a good target sight, or risk firing everything for nothing.

But during charge up phase, your mech will glow in a cool Godzilla like fashion. RAWR!!!

This looks like an interesting way of adding new mechanichs to the game, i would however suggest that instaead of an 'Alpha Strike' button, we rather change the way the Override mode engages and works as a mechanic in the game, changing it from a 'temporal bypass of the emergency heat shutdown' that is now, to a more dinamic and risky alternative, Powerfull enough to tempt you to use it, but punishing enough to make only consider it in extremely do or die moments

[lagartx3]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 October 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry but right now PGI is looking to systems that will reduce alpha strikes damage,
And then so doing increase TTK, From this topic it seems like the exact opposite,

You are proposing to allow for more damage on an alpha strike,
And a lot of cases this could literally break the game in allow one shots,

With a this you could run on 8ER PPC Dire star and 1shot more often,
This would allow for you to get 4 or 5 shots off with such a build assuming RNGesus blesses you,

For these reasons stated above I would have to say I cannot support this idea or concept,
Poor what it will do to cut I'm to kill and mac battles in general making everything up peek contest,

i really doubt you could take 4 or 5 alphas on a dire star considering the + 50% heat build up and aditional critical chance to every weapon fired, and the damage it could inflict into itself...

to me it really seems likepeople see the ''+50% damage on an alpha'' and inmediatly get rage blinded and either stop reading or stop wanting to even understand the way this mechanic is intended to be, it is a high reward - REALLY HIGH RISK mechanic and it has high enough self destruct chances to really think about it as something exploitable, yes, it could be the case if every build was a Dire Star or an super lazor boat, but with the inclution of energy draw and a shift towards a new mix - build meta this could pretty much be a good step in the direction of a renewed way of playing MW:O and i think that this would actually be a good adition to the new ED system, considering there is not really anything more promising in sigth

[B L O O D W I T C H]

Because that is what the game needs!

Higher alpha damage.
Shorter time to kill.
Nerf on Lights.
More overly complex game mechanics.

Well done OP!

[razenWing]

Andi Nagasia, on 07 October 2016 - 10:56 AM, said:

I'm sorry but right now PGI is looking to systems that will reduce alpha strikes damage,
And then so doing increase TTK, From this topic it seems like the exact opposite,

You are proposing to allow for more damage on an alpha strike,
And a lot of cases this could literally break the game in allow one shots,

With a this you could run on 8ER PPC Dire star and 1shot more often,
This would allow for you to get 4 or 5 shots off with such a build assuming RNGesus blesses you,

For these reasons stated above I would have to say I cannot support this idea or concept,
Poor what it will do to cut I'm to kill and mac battles in general making everything up peek contest,

I don't quite understand. Do people alpha 8 ERPPC DWF now? If you wouldn't do this now, why would you do it with the new Alpha Strike? Firing 8 ERPPC guarantees instant death as of now. This will not be changed even with the new mechanics. I just don't see where you are coming from with this "you might survive because of RNJeus" stuff.

Because the high risk high reward idea will only work assuming that you can eat the 50% heat. For example, my 8 MPL simul fire is currently sitting at about 75% heat Alpha. With the new Alpha Strike mechanics, I will go to about 110%. Is it going to kill me from heat alone? Maybe not. But at 110% heat, you bet I will be losing a few internals. Combine with at least 1 or 2 weapons guarantee to self destruct at 15% rate, I will have to pick the time and place to go crazy.

Now, assuming you build a perfect 99% Alpha mech under the current rule. If you use the new Alpha Strike mechanics, rather than sitting pretty at 99% using Beta strike, you will go to 150%, or... guarantee death.

The heat mechanics is not removed. In fact if anything, it's intensified.

This is not a mechanic intend to address TTK. It's a last ditch effort to either pay off big, or go home empty handed.

(though honestly, maybe I need to go back and re-read my post... how are so many people misinterpreting what I am trying to do/say? And people, you can't read the word "Alpha Strike," assume that I mean firing all the weapon will somehow bypass some mechanics and/or give you free damage? I meant the actual Alpha Strike button... like the one in the manual that says backslash '\'. Perhaps a picture tutorial next time...)

----------------

this is not directed at Andi, but to other posters in general:

(O and, if you are going to post anime meme to disguise your lack of reading comprehension, at least have the courtesy to post the anime's origin. not everyone have the time to sit at basement to watch every single anime to get the reference. or perhaps... you don't even know what you are posting????)

Edited by razenWing, 07 October 2016 - 03:44 PM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

razenWing, on 06 October 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

nonsense

What problem is this intended to solve exactly? Why do we need yet more alpha damage?

[Col Jaime Wolf]

i agree with the OP in sentiment that alpha strikes are a little out of hand at this point but i feel the problem lies directly with heat capacity and heatsinks pushing it even further.