69 replies to this topic

[RedDragon]

Appogee, on 08 October 2016 - 02:43 AM, said:

The coders only do what the designers tell them to do.

The main opportunities to improve this game aren't in whether the coding and algorithms are efficient or not, they are in the overall design ... ie. the vision for what the game is intended to be, and whether the game mechanics achieve that vision.

PGI's leadership have shown time and again that they lack the ambition to make this game what it could be. While the term "minimal viable product" gets misused in these forums, it is in this instance a fair representation of the ongoing low aspirations PGI's leadership have for MWO.

You want people to flock back to MWO? Add the depth and context that a title like Eve Online achieved. And, FFS leverage the rich BT lore.

While I agree that it's mainly the leadership's fault, you can't tell me that over the last 4 years no one has told the coders to get LB-X ammo working for example. Or to get the netcode working. Or inverse kinematics (which were out for how long? 3 years?). If they knew how to do it, I see no reason why they shouldn't. It's not like they would be needed to do so much else, because the only thing that takes resources is new mechs. Or what else are they coding the whole day? After all, everytime someone says that they should stop making mechs and fix the game, the answer is "Coders don't work on the mechs, dumba**". So what are they working on instead? All the new game modes?

They don't understand their own code (or more likely the code the guys who programmed the first prototype used), that's why today's MWO is a patchwork of code that is mainly kept together by prayers and duct tape.

[Spleenslitta]

What would it take to bring me back?

A more adrenaline kicking combat system by making MWO feel more like i'm piloting a giant robot.

The movement of mechs is perfect so that's not the problem. Light mechs feel fast and assault mechs are lumbering...that's fine.
Problem is that when anyone is allowed to fire 5LPL's all at the same time it feels like they are using one single weapon and it takes very little skill to do so.

What would be thrilling for me is having a duel with someone lasting several minutes as we struggle back and forth for the slightest advantage.
Firing 5LPL's is pretty much a oneshot kill.
But using a bunch of different weapons to claw your way to victory sounds much more exciting.

How would that be possible? Well...by PGI being more daring and willing to make an effort rather than the bandaid solutions called Ghost Heat and Energy Draw. There was this guy who had an awesome idea.
MWO: Forums - What If We Have 3 Bars?

But people just thought it would be too difficult to keep an eye on heat,recoil and targeting computer bars.
They thought boat mech variants such as the Archer 5W would be at a severe disadvantage with it's 9 Missile weapon slots.
We found a solution to that and people just ignored it...

I want MWO to feel less like a common Call of Duty,Farcry,whatever FPS game and more like a mech simulator.
That will upset some people but i don't give a damn because i have played around 10 maybe 15 matches throughout all of 2016.
That means i have basicly quit.

If MWO was much more like a mech simulator i would have bought the Viper and the Phoenix Hawk for sure.
So i thought that when they released the Viper or Phoenix Hawk for C-bills i would come back since that's free at least with mechs that are perfect for me.
....but i didn't come back when the Phoenix Hawk became available for C-bills.
Fact is that they could make the Firebee which is my favorite mech of all time and release it for MC or even C-bills today and i wouldn't even blink...i would not bother playing MWO even then.

They could release 20 new quick play maps today and i would probably play them and get bored really quickly.
MWO needs a radical makeover with reaaally high TTK to get me back.

[Appogee]

RedDragon, on 08 October 2016 - 03:42 AM, said:

"Coders don't work on the mechs, dumba**". So what are they working on instead? All the new game modes?

The coders work on what they're told to work on. They don't decide what to spend their day coding, the company leadership tells them.

In most studios, coders are specifically prohibited from working on things unless they gain permission to do so. Otherwise, unintended errors can creep into the code after they 'fix' something, which can create untraceable consequences for the broader program.

They haven't introduced IK or fixed LB-X because the company leadership has them doing other things.

I'm guessing they actually only have one or two coders. And Russ publishes in his roadmap what they're working on.

Edited by Appogee, 08 October 2016 - 03:50 AM.

[adamts01]

Appogee, on 08 October 2016 - 02:40 AM, said:

I wonder if Russ defines "population" as "players with accounts" or "active players".

Observe the daily matchmaking, FP queues, and then take a guess.

See, he's not lying. You're just misinterpreting his Tweet.

There's some kind of manipulation of words going on. They keep saying numbers are better than ever, but aside from a few white knights it seems everyone has noticed a gradual decent of players. Match making gates are always wide open, lights are waiting for 10-15 minutes with all servers checked during non-NA peak hours, it's the same faces all day every day in game. Maybe the biggest indicator is PGI's attempt to talk to us lately, that's got to be like pulling teeth to them.

[Appogee]

adamts01, on 08 October 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

aside from a few white knights it seems everyone has noticed a gradual descent of players.

I wonder why the white knights don't notice it? It seems very very obvious to the rest of us.

Maybe the white knights just don't play that often. Too busy reassuring us on the forums that everything is ok, perhaps.

[DrxAbstract]

adamts01, on 08 October 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

There's some kind of manipulation of words going on. They keep saying numbers are better than ever, but aside from a few white knights it seems everyone has noticed a gradual decent of players. Match making gates are always wide open, lights are waiting for 10-15 minutes with all servers checked during non-NA peak hours, it's the same faces all day every day in game. Maybe the biggest indicator is PGI's attempt to talk to us lately, that's got to be like pulling teeth to them.

Well the biggest indication a ship is sinking is when the captain is regularly addressing passengers...

[adamts01]

DrxAbstract, on 08 October 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

Well the biggest indication a ship is sinking is when the captain is regularly addressing passengers...

It's really sad, and I do hope it's not the case. I love this franchise more than any other, and I really wanted this game to work. I'm just so disappointed they haven't gotten past skirmish. CW3 was really depressing, especially since they went all out saying it was going to be the huge and entirely new CW we've been waiting for. Then the unneeded blanket light nerf..... crippling the weakest of the weak.... GGclose PGI, GGclose.

[RedDragon]

Appogee, on 08 October 2016 - 03:49 AM, said:

The coders work on what they're told to work on. They don't decide what to spend their day coding, the company leadership tells them.

In most studios, coders are specifically prohibited from working on things unless they gain permission to do so. Otherwise, unintended errors can creep into the code after they 'fix' something, which can create untraceable consequences for the broader program.

They haven't introduced IK or fixed LB-X because the company leadership has them doing other things.

I'm guessing they actually only have one or two coders. And Russ publishes in his roadmap what they're working on.

So what ARE they working on? Even if they only have two real coders (and I'm perfectly with you on that number), it just doesn't match up with the actual results we're seing when you're looking at the little changes that go into each patch - some of them even only being altered numbers in an XML-file.

And naturally no one is telling them NOW to fix the LB-X. But at some point they must have tried to implement it and saw that they couldn't do it, at least not with the man hours the leadership was comfortable with. And IK are meant to come back for a long time now, so either Russ is lying (okay, not that far fetched) or they have a really hard time figuring it out.

Again, yes, mostly it's the management who's to blame, but they can't have that much insight into their own code or else the game wouldn't look like it does now.

[Bud Crue]

The title question is:

What would it take to bring previous players back?

In answer, indulge me in a bit of fantasy:

Setting MechCon opening address by Russ Bullock. Russ has just walked out on to the small stage to the smattering of applause of the 32 people in attendance. The drunken hoots and hollers die away slowly as the audience notes that Russ appears sober. He has his head bowed. He appears worn and tired; even dejected. As the uncomfortable silence of the room becomes palpable, Russ raises his head and slowly scans the crowd. Finally after a long uncomfortable moment he says too little words:

"I'm Sorry."

As the confused audience looks about in bewilderment Russ suddenly becomes animated. As if that brief statement of honest contrition suddenly woke his subconscious Elon Musk wannabe persona, Russ's face takes on an a grim visage of hardened determination. His whole body -from head to toe- transforms from a listless corporate hack into the man of action he so desperately wants to be. But this new reborn Russ -reborn from two little words and belief in them- knows that this is just the beginning of the transformation; the first step on a road to personal and corporate salvation. And with that realization he knows he must go further, and so he continues in a new, louder, more confident voice, full of vigor even anger:

"Yes. Yes. I am sorry. Not for making this game, but for failing to make it in the way I actually wanted to make it. For falling into the trap of quick profit and ignoring what makes BattleTech and Mechwarrior special. I'm sorry for all the self deluding crap I've spewed over the years to justify ignoring the complaints and listening only to what I wanted to hear. I'm sorry for every misleading statement and failure. I'm sorry for the insults, the ignorance and the lies. For telling my customers and players that I didn't need their input -for that most of all, I am so very sorry.

I have always been proud of getting this game made. Perhaps I've been too proud. So proud that I came to believe that my game was more important than the BattleTech and Mechwarrior games upon which it is based. So proud that I convinced my self that my game didn't need those silly old table top and stand alone titles and what they were all about. That my game was better. I'm sorry for that too...for thinking that I and I alone know whats best for my game because I lost site of the fact that this was never my game, but yours."

-after a very long pause and a deep breath-

"And here is what I and PGI are going to do to make it right:

First, Solaris is coming in 90 days...its okay to laugh...I know why its "funny". Well that is not going to be a joke any more. All those people we hired last year have been working like dogs to get this done and it is almost done. If something should happen, and it appears that we won't make the deadline...we will communicate with our players and customers in an honest and consistent basis to keep you informed. And not just on twitter! We will use the forums too!"

...

Russ speaks for a good, solid hour. He addresses many thing, including the failure of faction play and his new proposal to make it the immersive and Battletech immersive mode promised long ago. No BS, just a vision of what the game is to be with honesty and contrition and a promise to be open regarding delays and problems and to continue using the community to help identify and fix problems.

Something like the scenario above would need to happen, and the greater mwo fan community would need to be made aware of it, to get just about any bitter-vet, ex-players that I know to even THINK of coming back to the game. To actually get some back, you need the scenario above and then one aspect of real content follow through to occur before any would actually start coming back.

Edited by Bud Crue, 08 October 2016 - 04:47 AM.

[RedDragon]

DrxAbstract, on 08 October 2016 - 03:58 AM, said:

Well the biggest indication a ship is sinking is when the captain is regularly addressing passengers...

Well, they have a long history of coming out of their holes to talk to us and promise things just before there's another sale ... And right after it's back to radio silence again. Sadly some people still get their hopes up and start throwing money when there are big announcements ...

[Imperius]

Bud Crue, on 08 October 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

The title question is:

What would it take to bring previous players back?

In answer, indulge me in a bit of fantasy:

Setting MechCon opening address by Russ Bullock. Russ has just walked out on to the small stage to the smattering of applause of the 32 people in attendance. The drunken hoots and hollers die away slowly as the audience notes that Russ appears sober. He has his head bowed. He appears worn and tired; even dejected. As the uncomfortable silence of the room becomes palpable, Russ raises his head and slowly scans the crowd. Finally after a long uncomfortable moment he says too little words:

"I'm Sorry."

As the confused audience looks about in bewilderment Russ suddenly becomes animated. As if that brief statement of honest contrition suddenly woke his subconscious Elon Musk wannabe persona, Russ's face takes on an a grim visage of hardened determination. His whole body -from head to toe- transforms from a listless corporate hack into the man of action he so desperately wants to be. But this new reborn Russ -reborn from two little words and belief in them- knows that this is just the beginning of the transformation; the first step on a road to personal and corporate salvation. And with that realization he knows he must go further, and so he continues in a new, louder, more confident voice, full of vigor even anger:

"Yes. Yes. I am sorry. Not for making this game, but for failing to make it in the way I actually wanted to make it. For falling into the trap of quick profit and ignoring what makes BattleTech and Mechwarrior special. I'm sorry for all the self deluding crap I've spewed over the years to justify ignoring the complaints and listening only to what I wanted to hear. I'm sorry for every misleading statement and failure. I'm sorry for the insults, the ignorance and the lies. For telling my customers and players that I didn't need their input -for that most of all, I am so very sorry.

I have always been proud of getting this game made. Perhaps I've been too proud. So proud that I came to believe that my game was more important than the BattleTech and Mechwarrior games upon which it is based. So proud that I convinced my self that my game didn't need those silly old table top and stand alone titles and what they were all about. That my game was better. I'm sorry for that too...for thinking that I and I alone know whats best for my game because I lost site of the fact that this was never my game, but yours."

-after a very long pause and a deep breath-

"And here is what I and PGI are going to do to make it right:

First, Solaris is coming in 90 days...its okay to laugh...I know why its "funny". Well that is not going to be a joke any more. All those people we hired last year have been working like dogs to get this done and it is almost done. If something should happen, and it appears that we won't make the deadline...we will communicate with our players and customers in an honest and consistent basis to keep you informed. And not just on twitter! We will use the forums too!"

...

Russ speaks for a good, solid hour. He addresses many thing, including the failure of faction play and his new proposal to make it the immersive and Battletech immersive mode promised long ago. No BS, just a vision of what the game is to be with honesty and contrition and a promise to be open regarding delays and problems and to continue using the community to help identify and fix problems.

Something like the scenario above would need to happen, and the greater mwo fan community would need to be made aware of it, to get just about any bitter-vet, ex-players that I know to even THINK of coming back to the game. To actually get some back, you need the scenario above and then one aspect of real content follow through to occur before any would actually start coming back.

Never have I seen the leadership of PGI apologize for bad decisions. It's always "this didn't go in the direction we wanted" when then the blame usually gets shifted to us the community.

[RedDragon]

Imperius, on 08 October 2016 - 05:34 AM, said:

Never have I seen the leadership of PGI apologize for bad decisions. It's always "this didn't go in the direction we wanted" when then the blame usually gets shifted to us the community.

Yeah, if Russ and his team are good at anything, it's corporate speak.
It's always "somehow that test build got on the live server, it was NEVER meant to be released" or "it was an error in communication!" or something like that. Never "Sorry, we f*cked up." And they f*ck up a lot.

I also remember when they finally introduced private matches. The whole community was shouting at them for years to let them have private matches, units even resortet to sync-dropping for league play. And some day Bryan comes along and says, and I quote: "We have identified a need from our user base for supporting competitive play between groups of players".
He really makes it sound like they had to do thorough analysis before coming up themselves with the idea that - oh my god! - people want to have matches between their units.

[Imperius]

RedDragon, on 08 October 2016 - 06:13 AM, said:

Yeah, if Russ and his team are good at anything, it's corporate speak.
It's always "somehow that test build got on the live server, it was NEVER meant to be released" or "it was an error in communication!" or something like that. Never "Sorry, we f*cked up." And they f*ck up a lot.

I also remember when they finally introduced private matches. The whole community was shouting at them for years to let them have private matches, units even resortet to sync-dropping for league play. And some day Bryan comes along and says, and I quote: "We have identified a need from our user base for supporting competitive play between groups of players".
He really makes it sound like they had to do thorough analysis before coming up themselves with the idea that - oh my god! - people want to have matches between their units.

Yup it can never be the community's idea it has to be implanted into the leadership by the community and then we have to wait for a few years to get the response you talked about above.

Like honestly, it's our game we paid/pay for it to run and function and PGI wants to act like it's their game and we should be happy they let's us play. This is the current problem. Without us they wouldn't have the funds and without them we wouldn't have MWO. What's sad is they constantly seem to think our feedback isn't important. Like there is a whole other community out there that wanted a WOT map, supply caches, and a sudden e-sports focus. This isn't Dota2, WoT, or LoL

Edited by Imperius, 08 October 2016 - 07:07 AM.

[Shiroi Tsuki]

Add in RPG elements and improve immersion.

[Samurai 7]

There are many problems with the game that have just gone so long unfixed that its the point where people are giving up.
1. Map; they need to figure out how to generate random maps; If no mans sky can do it, mechwarrior should be able to do it.
2. They completely lost the whole idea of what mech categories mean. A light running around with 6 SRMs can easily take out a assault. Thats not the purpose of a light. Assaults can run just as fast as many mediums; basically its just become of a game of seeing how big of a alpha can you create with out exploding because the differences between the classes are so small it doesn't madder.
3. hit reg is still abysmal, especially when there are more people playing. They seem to have be prioritizing speed of starting a game instead of the quality of the game. This means yea, your match starts faster, but it also means that hit reg is so bad you dont know what will count and what wont. I have personally seen mechs take 100's hit points of dmg and not die. I once put 40 AC20s into the CT of a stalker and died before he did. Things like this need to stop.
4. We dont need more mechs, just improve what you have!
5. Game mechanics are still clunky, a 40t mech doing 150kph cannot stop in 5m nor can it accelerate in 10m. Either would kill the pilot; Pebbles still hold up mechs.
6. If you are a light doing 160, you can run into a 100t mech and have almost no dmg, sorry, but that should do almost as much dmg as a ac20, right now lights just run up into your CT and start whaling with SRMs, and you cant hit them because they are too close and they take no dmg from their own missiles at 0m.
7. The pilot trees need to be expanded dramatically, like 1000's of levels, even if they are .1 increments. Otherwise there is no point to keep playing because you are maxed out. There is nothing to work 'towards'. There needs to be something that keeps me coming back and playing; Once you have a set of favorite mechs and they are maxed out, there is nothing to really keep you coming back.
8. Crack down on cheaters harder and faster. Auto aim, macros, etc are all ruining the game. If you try to use a macro you should just blow up. Forget banning them they will just create a new account in 30 secs.

I have been around since the beta, I still play this game... but honestly its only in between waiting for other games to come out. When the game works its fun; But when it doesnt it sucks hard.

[Airwind]

what i can say is, mechs are only a part of the mechwarrior world. what drove me was the story, the battles for profits and honour. the pilots and heroes of mech warriors giving out orders. the political landsapes.

i was hoping for a campaign. not in the sense of Player vs AI, but a campaign lead by the characters of battletech. they should tell me where to attack. give us objectives.

tailor a story to go with it. and these can be monthly progressed story or weekly if done right.

i just want to be dropped into a mission which will eventually bring my faction to victory. many things can be done.

this game feels empty as it's just a mech shooter. each time i find the strength to load up the game, i have that empty feeling after each match

[RestosIII]

Airwind, on 08 October 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

what i can say is, mechs are only a part of the mechwarrior world. what drove me was the story, the battles for profits and honour. the pilots and heroes of mech warriors giving out orders. the political landsapes.

i was hoping for a campaign. not in the sense of Player vs AI, but a campaign lead by the characters of battletech. they should tell me where to attack. give us objectives.

tailor a story to go with it. and these can be monthly progressed story or weekly if done right.

i just want to be dropped into a mission which will eventually bring my faction to victory. many things can be done.

this game feels empty as it's just a mech shooter. each time i find the strength to load up the game, i have that empty feeling after each match

I seriously want to escort Cavalry helos to an objective for them to turn the thing into rubble.

[Admiral_Korean_Jesus]

Lots of great ideas here, even some of the satirical posts are promising.

Though I can almost guarantee one thing, when PGIs secret forum police aren't heavily censoring critical posts like they usually do, they are going after streamers, youtubers, and other popular players who are critical of PGI and MWO.

I don't have to name one very popular streamer that PGI blacklisted and eventually banned because they didn't agree with him, interesting when punishments and favoritism are so wide spread with a "Triple A rated" gaming company.

Maybe PGI will read through here and take some notes?

[Davers]

At this point I would say fixing what is broke won't be enough. They would need something big and new to really bring people back. Other than pve, I'm not sure what else would qualify.

[Deathlike]

Bud Crue, on 08 October 2016 - 04:47 AM, said:

The title question is:

What would it take to bring previous players back?

In answer, indulge me in a bit of fantasy:

Setting MechCon opening address by Russ Bullock. Russ has just walked out on to the small stage to the smattering of applause of the 32 people in attendance. The drunken hoots and hollers die away slowly as the audience notes that Russ appears sober. He has his head bowed. He appears worn and tired; even dejected. As the uncomfortable silence of the room becomes palpable, Russ raises his head and slowly scans the crowd. Finally after a long uncomfortable moment he says too little words:

"I'm Sorry."

As the confused audience looks about in bewilderment Russ suddenly becomes animated. As if that brief statement of honest contrition suddenly woke his subconscious Elon Musk wannabe persona, Russ's face takes on an a grim visage of hardened determination. His whole body -from head to toe- transforms from a listless corporate hack into the man of action he so desperately wants to be. But this new reborn Russ -reborn from two little words and belief in them- knows that this is just the beginning of the transformation; the first step on a road to personal and corporate salvation. And with that realization he knows he must go further, and so he continues in a new, louder, more confident voice, full of vigor even anger:

"Yes. Yes. I am sorry. Not for making this game, but for failing to make it in the way I actually wanted to make it. For falling into the trap of quick profit and ignoring what makes BattleTech and Mechwarrior special. I'm sorry for all the self deluding crap I've spewed over the years to justify ignoring the complaints and listening only to what I wanted to hear. I'm sorry for every misleading statement and failure. I'm sorry for the insults, the ignorance and the lies. For telling my customers and players that I didn't need their input -for that most of all, I am so very sorry.

I have always been proud of getting this game made. Perhaps I've been too proud. So proud that I came to believe that my game was more important than the BattleTech and Mechwarrior games upon which it is based. So proud that I convinced my self that my game didn't need those silly old table top and stand alone titles and what they were all about. That my game was better. I'm sorry for that too...for thinking that I and I alone know whats best for my game because I lost site of the fact that this was never my game, but yours."

-after a very long pause and a deep breath-

"And here is what I and PGI are going to do to make it right:

First, Solaris is coming in 90 days...its okay to laugh...I know why its "funny". Well that is not going to be a joke any more. All those people we hired last year have been working like dogs to get this done and it is almost done. If something should happen, and it appears that we won't make the deadline...we will communicate with our players and customers in an honest and consistent basis to keep you informed. And not just on twitter! We will use the forums too!"

...

Russ speaks for a good, solid hour. He addresses many thing, including the failure of faction play and his new proposal to make it the immersive and Battletech immersive mode promised long ago. No BS, just a vision of what the game is to be with honesty and contrition and a promise to be open regarding delays and problems and to continue using the community to help identify and fix problems.

Something like the scenario above would need to happen, and the greater mwo fan community would need to be made aware of it, to get just about any bitter-vet, ex-players that I know to even THINK of coming back to the game. To actually get some back, you need the scenario above and then one aspect of real content follow through to occur before any would actually start coming back.

You know that is a pipedream. Please pass what you're smoking to everyone else.

Mikato Soul, on 08 October 2016 - 10:28 AM, said:

Lots of great ideas here, even some of the satirical posts are promising.

Though I can almost guarantee one thing, when PGIs secret forum police aren't heavily censoring critical posts like they usually do, they are going after streamers, youtubers, and other popular players who are critical of PGI and MWO.

I don't have to name one very popular streamer that PGI blacklisted and eventually banned because they didn't agree with him, interesting when punishments and favoritism are so wide spread with a "Triple A rated" gaming company.

Maybe PGI will read through here and take some notes?

The thing about it is that suppression only increases the chances of a revolution of sorts. Even then, bad word of mouth tends to proliferate much faster than anything positive (and it's not like PGI has given anyone much positivity to play with).

It doesn't matter... the next game that involves any members from the big 3 from PGI working on it... will have a "fan group" ready to remind everyone who they really are.

The fish rots from the head, and certainly there is something rotten in Vancouver.