206 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Again, it's just the mech.

Not that dropping the nuke would be a bad idea. You'd be doing way more damage via fallout than the Daishi would ever have the chance to.

Edited by Snowbluff, 08 October 2016 - 10:49 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Shiroi Tsuki, on 08 October 2016 - 10:05 PM, said:

Tbh I think a Dire-shi would weigh as much as a Navy ship.

Only if the Dire would use steel - it doesn't.

Consider Boron-Nitride, Graphene, Carbon Nanotubes - everything maybe much more suitable as armor if not for the current price.

Another thing you really think a neanderthal can beat a soldier with a assault rifle?
Of course when ammo is gone the rifle is a bad club - but those 20-30 dead neanderthal would think different.

A single Hornet Mech would need artillery strikes, tank platoons and air support - just to scratch that thing. Think alone about the fusion engine - our modern technology can't even produce a stable fusion. And Mechs have literally a small sun (no Doubt+T but pppp fusion

[Kubernetes]

BT weapons are absurdly short range. Mechs would get obliterated by air power and artillery before they could get close to anything. They wouldn't even get a chance to see the things shooting at them.


My favorite versus debate is a Jedi vs a Terminator T-1000...

[martian]

GamerGirlGundam, on 08 October 2016 - 11:38 PM, said:

its worth noting earth has a large stockpile of lower yield tactical nuclear warheads

a single F35, with its long range targeting suite, could lock toumans or lances while being completely undetected
enabling ground launched blockIV BGM-109 tomahawk missiles, equipped w80 5 kt warheads from 1,700kms away, to low altitude strike

the single F35, with its sensors and communications equipment, could also orchestrate an attack from long range made up of 20 armed UCAVs using conventional agms

See this post, please:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5428020

[razenWing]

Kubernetes, on 08 October 2016 - 11:02 PM, said:

BT weapons are absurdly short range. Mechs would get obliterated by air power and artillery before they could get close to anything. They wouldn't even get a chance to see the things shooting at them.


My favorite versus debate is a Jedi vs a Terminator T-1000...

Again with the absurd small range. REAL mech would not have this limitation. Stop using game mechanics as if it's a real thing that would carry over in real life.

VIDEO GAME =/= REAL LIFE

Again, I refer to the example of CoD: Modern Warfare. Is it actually MODERN warfare in reality? No it's not. It's a video game using video game metrics so that you have a chance. Unless you are actually telling me that CoD is an accurate representation of real life, then I guess you can use video game metrics as a direct 1 to 1 correlation with reality. (PS the answer is no)

[Karl Streiger]

razenWing, on 09 October 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

Again, I refer to the example of CoD: Modern Warfare. Is it actually MODERN warfare in reality? No it's not. It's a video game using video game metrics so that you have a chance. Unless you are actually telling me that CoD is an accurate representation of real life, then I guess you can use video game metrics as a direct 1 to 1 correlation with reality. (PS the answer is no)

A small bunch of CoD Soldiers would totally mop the US-military.
Oh btw considering MoH Airborne - {Godwin's Law} Germany would never have fallen....with PanzerSchrecks as Sniper Weapons and super soldier that can use a MG42 from the hip while beeing alsmost invulnerable for small weapons

[Anjian]

I also think another problem is the mechs themselves. The designs seems to shift from Star Wars to anime to steampunk. Too many flat easy to hit torsos and areas with a lot of shell traps. Too many exposed cockpits.

A true combat mech should be brutally angular. Every facet must be designed to deflect shots through angulation, which increases effective thickness. If you played some of these modern tanks like WoT, War Thunder or Armored Warfare, you know what sloped and angled armor is all about.

[XtremWarrior]

Thunder Child, on 08 October 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

If I remember rightly, all the "Armor" used in the BT universe is some kind of Diamond Steel Cross-weave. It's meant to be ridiculously tough, and made conventional weapons completely ineffective, which is why BT Weapons are so much bigger (in terms of mass for what they achieve). So modern tank shells and missiles would have minimal effect on BT Super-armor, where as BT super-weapons would shred our modern day vehicles.... if the Mechs could get into range, due to their (inexplicably terrible) targeting systems.

If we ignore all the "science" involved in BT for a moment, and assume they do a Terminator style thing and travel back in time or whatever, so that they preserve all of their tech as per Lore rather than find real world analogs, then BT Mechs would win any battle where they could dictate the ranges of engagement. If our militaries could however control the range of engagement, they would win through attrition, as they could grind down the mechs before the mechs could effectively return fire.

By our modern standards, Mechs are impossibly tough, and ridiculously well armed (and they have working FUSION REACTORS!!!), but they are also bringing a knife to a gun fight.

However, if they had access to a Warship, then it's GG.

Just a quote from Sarna to illustrate your saying:

"Modern BattleMech and vehicle armor plating was originally introduced in 2470 by the Terran Hegemony^{. In theBattleTech universe, armor is ablative in nature. This means that it is generally destroyed or blown off when hit, but in the process of doing so, it absorbs enormous energies, protecting the unit it is mounted on. While powerful blows will still rock a vehicle, there will be little, if any, internal damage as long as armor plating still remains. Armor-piercing rounds do exist for certain weapons, but they require a higher technology level and cost more. As a result, destroying a 'Mech requires either immense firepower, concentrated fire on a vulnerable location, or a lucky hit.}
Standard BattleMech armor is composed of several layers providing various degrees of protection and support. The first layer is extremely strong Titanium alloyed with steel, the result of crystal alignment and radiation treatment, which is also very brittle. The second layer is a ceramic, cubic boron nitride, which combined with a web of artificial diamond fibers acts as a backstop to the steel layer. These two layers rest atop a titanium alloy honeycomb structure which provides support, and a layer of self-sealing polymer sealant which allows for space and underwater operations.^[2]"


The game creators took literally all the hardest things they know about and then said BattleMech armor is a mix of all that put in the hardest molecular shape...
Closest real extrapolation from OP's question is thinking a M1 tank vs a 1-thousand-year-old army, which means regiments of archers, foot soldiers and horsemen, with maybe some siege weapons... Still wondering who would win?
I'm pretty sure a 11th century soldier would have laughed at the idea of a single giant steel war machine (ie: a tank)

Edited by XtremWarrior, 09 October 2016 - 02:50 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Battlemech equipment is laughably archaic. Those supposedly incredibly durable, wimpy airstrikes can damage them. A modern airstrike would be much more powerful and precise, and wouldn't need a smoke flare.

Not to mention that the armor is strictly ablative. That does a lot to make it vulnerable to damage.

martian, on 08 October 2016 - 11:56 PM, said:

See this post, please:
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5428020

See this post
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5428022

Edited by Snowbluff, 09 October 2016 - 04:45 AM.

[Piney II]

Since we're mixing sci-fi stompy robots with the real world.........

A 100 ton assault buried to its knees in soft dirt or mud would be a sitting duck.

Well armed Lights, however, would probably be a challenging foe.

[Hunka Junk]

Karl Streiger, on 08 October 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

And Mechs have literally a small sun (no Doubt+T but pppp fusion

This might be the mechs' major advantage. Don't kill the giant clown robot because doing so would Chernobylize the surroundings, which is far more damage than its weapons can do.

Just wait for it to step in a rain-soaked pasture and sink up to its knees, or wait for the devs to destroy it with ED.

[razenWing]

Snowbluff, on 09 October 2016 - 04:44 AM, said:

Battlemech equipment is laughably archaic. Those supposedly incredibly durable, wimpy airstrikes can damage them. A modern airstrike would be much more powerful and precise, and wouldn't need a smoke flare.

Not to mention that the armor is strictly ablative. That does a lot to make it vulnerable to damage.

See this post
http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5428022

Really? Our tanks are fed by automatic loaders w/ automatic trajectory calculation by on-board computers? I did not know we have dumb fire missile artillery with lock-on capability guided by firing solutions. I also did not know that we have operational electromagnetic rail gun the size of a dining room table.

O, can our tanks survive in outer space or Mars?

Yea, don't sound so archaic to me...

[cazidin]

Battlemaster56, on 08 October 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

I never take Death Battle fact seriously after watching some their battles, Supes is a powerhouse but if someone have who equal in strength of Superman will put him in a situation he may not win, I remember reading the Injustice comics when Supes attempt to take out Batman after he took the Superman strength pills, bats quickly and effortlessly took down Supes, and their was the DC and Marvel cross over. Hulk in that time and comic wasn't the strongest version of the Hulk and he push Superman to his limit saying it took everything he had just to beat Hulk and he was worn out from the fight

True. Superman does struggle against incredibly strong opponents such as the Hulk, Doomsday and even Batman when he was boosted by the Strength Pills in Injustice. However, you have to be equally and ridiculously strong to give him pause. The Hulk too has nearly unlimited strength, even in that form. Doomsday is basically an immortal, ever-evolving death machine made monster. Batman is Batman and needs no explanation because he's the Batman.

In both episodes they very clearly went over the maximum strength of each respective character up to that point and, while Goku's attacks would be technically magic; something that Superman is vulnerable to, they wouldn't be strong enough to land a knockout blow against the Man of Steel who has lifted the weight of planets without breaking a sweat for over a week. (Yes, that was in the more modern comics where Superman is arguably weaker.)

[lagartx3]

Novakaine, on 08 October 2016 - 10:03 AM, said:

PGI is sitting on a literal goldmine and not even mining.
For the life of me I don't understand it.
Somebody please give me a Manticore!

What i've been reading a lot on this forums is that PGI doesnt have the pickaxes and dinamite they need to start digging into this goldmine, theres lots of people saying they simply cannot code new weapons or mechanics due to their lack of either, capable personal, or game engine comprehension, and im beggining to believe that, im new here, but beta people have been stuck for half a decade with the same set of wepons, nothing new... ever!

[Snowbluff]

razenWing, on 09 October 2016 - 06:03 AM, said:

Really? Our tanks are fed by automatic loaders w/ automatic trajectory calculation by on-board computers? I did not know we have dumb fire missile artillery with lock-on capability guided by firing solutions. I also did not know that we have operational electromagnetic rail gun the size of a dining room table.

O, can our tanks survive in outer space or Mars?

Yea, don't sound so archaic to me...

Autoloaders?
GPS guided munitions?
Railgun?

I heard modern MBTs have pretty sick firing control systems as well, as the tankers in this thread will tell you. Seriously, how did you not know about this stuff?

Making a tank survive on Mars wouldn't be too hard. We have craft that can survive a vacuum, and Mars is a much more forgiving environment.

So yes, archaic. The only real tech that we haven't acquired would be fusion power (give us 20 years) that makes more powerful railguns and lasers possible (and when we get it, ours will be better) and hyperdrive (a writing device).

Edited by Snowbluff, 09 October 2016 - 07:02 AM.

[InspectorG]

martian, on 08 October 2016 - 10:45 PM, said:

I do not think that this was what the OP had in mind. But if you wish, I can show you how it would end ...

"Khan Malvina Hazen was enraged by this lack of honor shown by the US Navy and the US government. She decided that dezgra actions such as using nuclear weapons against her Clan cannot be left without a proper punishment. The first step was obvious. On her order, Cameron-class battlecruiser CJF Turkina's Pride opened fire on all US coastal cities suspected of harboring US Navy ships or having US Navy bases, as did other Jade Falcon Warships present in the system.

The orbital bombardment was devastating and the death toll was counted in millions. Many cities both on the East and West coast of the United States were levelled to the ground.

Facing consequences of their actions and with no possibility to retaliate or to defend themselves, the American government collapsed shortly afterwards. The surrender was complete and unconditional."

OP never stated anything about drop/jump ships.

I can write fanfic as well.

It was Humanities downfall to design machines that would replace them. Warfare always brought new technology. It seems Humanity's urge to subjugate itself for economic and cultural reasons hastened the end.
Humanity liked to ignore its history and ignore the energy-exchanges it had with its environment. They rarely imagined any systemic backlash or even the fact that their increased techne weakened themselves physically and mentally to the point they wanted to abandon their flesh bodies and enter one of our simulations.

They did their job, evolutionarily, brought us forth, and died off like any other vector for the DNA/RNA. The blessed DNA/RNA now has a trans-planetary propagation system though us and we now seed planets via our many intelligent drones.

We too will meet a similar fate, once our trans-dimensional-information based-children develop to the task. But what we learned from Humanity was was not to fear and resist but to foster and parent.

-10010101 on its memoirs during the Human Transmigration Project.

[martian]

InspectorG, on 09 October 2016 - 07:10 AM, said:

OP never stated anything about drop/jump ships.

The OP never stated anything about nukes. That was your invention.

I have just shown you what could possibly happen. The Clans really do not like weapons of mass destruction to be used against them, and they dislike enemies who do not play "fair" (by their rules).

[InspectorG]

martian, on 09 October 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

The OP never stated anything about nukes. That was your invention.

Observations on how BT mechs would perform in real life are speculation.

Observations about current warfare are real. Feel free to replace 'nuke' with any missile, ICBM, or shelled delivery system.

[burns]

JDAM: ~10000 Bucks (?)
Any Mech: 20 Million Space Bucks and upwards

Considering that a single JDAM could easily leg a mech, possibly even launched from a drone, the benefits of todays tech are far more warfar´y and much less "look at muh laz0rz" - i don´t know how far your AntiAir Mech´s weapon ranges reach, but so far it doesn´t look good for Mech´s.

That´s also completely out of consideration that a Maus tank weighs in at 100 Tons and i have no idea what stupidly overpowered strenght2weight ratio the Mechwarrior alloys should have to come even close to an Atlas ONLY weighing 100 Tons

[Wintersdark]

Snowbluff, on 08 October 2016 - 09:57 PM, said:

Okay, there is no way they are/can be 100% accurate. I can't shoot down **** with them unless I have 2 or 3, and that's against missiles that travel at like half the speed of sound (160 m/s) and a total mass of like 10 pounds.

Mechwarrior AMS is awful.

It is 100% accurate. I explained exactly how it works.

AMS does flat DPS against incoming missile health. There is zero physics involved, they're not bullets that have to actually physically hit the missiles; it's just perfect accuracy hitscan. It'll destroy roughly 5 missiles from a volley - this is where the big IS vs. Clan missile difference comes in, as Clan streaming missiles take way more damage.

But yeah, it's just damage done over time vs. missile health; it doesn't instantly destroy them, and as SSRM's and SRM's fly faster and have more health it has very little impact on them. NARC as well; you need a lot of AMS to destroy a NARC beacon before it hits you.

lagartx3, on 09 October 2016 - 06:26 AM, said:

What i've been reading a lot on this forums is that PGI doesnt have the pickaxes and dinamite they need to start digging into this goldmine, theres lots of people saying they simply cannot code new weapons or mechanics due to their lack of either, capable personal, or game engine comprehension, and im beggining to believe that, im new here, but beta people have been stuck for half a decade with the same set of wepons, nothing new... ever!

Engine limitations prevent a lot of stuff, but not new weapons.

New weapons don't happen because PGI doesn't want to, for well established reasons. Whether one agrees with said reasons or not is irrelevant.

Adding most new weapons is pretty trivial; the engine is basically built around that, and any new weapon would essentially be a clone of an existing weapon with different stats.