274 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 14 October 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

Well, I blame all the ******* whiners, the loud incessant bottom-of-the-barrel ******* whiners for the sorry the state of JJs on anything but lights and some mediums.

I'd rather blame the cause, PGI

[Chados]

Bud Crue, on 14 October 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

I'm still waiting for an explanation as to why my Quickdraws needed two nerfs following the rescale. Or why they nerffed the Jester. Or all the Grasshoppers except the most meta of all: the 5P was untouched (they arguably hit the J...the J!...the hardest), etc. Lots of mechs that are not often played or are of middling performance get nerfs yet the most clearly superior performing mechs often do not. E.g. I have not found a single post ANYWHERE complaining the the Hopper J was an OP monster, but nerfed hard it was. So while players may want nerfs to certain mechs for whatever reason...PGI's system or rationale? Dartboard is as good of a system as any I guess.

The truth has been spoken.

Bring back the Cat...especially the Jester's...ear armor and structure quirks. And for the love of God, do something about the Quickdraws! Other than the IV-4 they fly apart if you look at them cross eyed.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 14 October 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'd rather blame the cause, PGI

Nah! PGI is just half the problem.

[Tristan Winter]

Mystere, on 14 October 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

I've been here long enough, and have played more than enough PvP games, to know that I fully disagree with you on this point.

I've been here long enough to know that discussions where each side calls the other "big babies", "cowards" and other insults, playing armchair psychologists to argue that personal insecurities are the reason why other people have opposite views about balance, are rarely educational or entertaining. It just devolves to name-calling and then the thread gets locked.

I will say, however, that people who play Streakcrows were probably both bullied at school and never hugged enough by their parents.

[FupDup]

Tristan Winter, on 14 October 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

I will say, however, that people who play Streakcrows were probably both bullied at school and never hugged enough by their parents.

They're the kind of people who pull the wings and legs off of insects and watch them slowly die.

[Tibbnak]

[Bud Crue]

Chados, on 14 October 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

The truth has been spoken.

Bring back the Cat...especially the Jester's...ear armor and structure quirks. And for the love of God, do something about the Quickdraws! Other than the IV-4 they fly apart if you look at them cross eyed.

Wth. Since we are asking:

While you are busy fixing the Jester, Quickdraws, and returning some agility to the worst of the Grasshoppers how about the following as well:

Give some love to the Mist Lynx...another hard point, anything.

And give a bit of structure love to all the IS 35 toners.

And give more armor to the Phoenix Hawks arms and weapons quirks on par with a Vindi or even a Black Jack.

And give the grid iron 5-10% more Gauss cool down.

And give the Dragon a proper ballistics arm...at least.

And make the Summoner worth playing...I don't know how, I'm not a game designer, just fix it.

And put the left arm laser of the Cataphract on the side or top of the arm, reorient the paddle of the right arm up about 20% and move the rt ballistics mount on the 0xp up closer to the shoulder.

And fix the god damn Black Knight with quirks or a slight shrink, it is a travisty that the best lookin IS heavy is stuck in the garage because it gets made fun of for having the physique of Manute Bol...when he was in high school.

The Victor...10 pts in the STs and you think that will make it playable? Are you nuts? Hey your Canadian...double it and add 30 (joke). But seriously the Victor needs structure and armor quirks like a Quickdraw IV-4 mixed with a Zeus 5s to be viable. Don't get me started on Jump Jets.

Oh...the Dire. Give that poor thing some friggin torso twist. Geezus. Can you imagine how it must feel when it sees those Spirt Bears zipping by or the Kodiak 3 blasting away while running and twisting in that coquettish way that it has. I'll tell ya how it feels: Like the slowest most cumbersome mech in the game that how.

I could go on but it is Friday, and I am almost drunk enough to log on and play so I will be done.

[Mystere]

FupDup, on 14 October 2016 - 03:59 PM, said:

They're the kind of people who pull the wings and legs off of insects and watch them slowly die.

That's so lame.

I prefer an obstacle course made of up of several focused lenses on a sunny day.

[LT. HARDCASE]

The only way to nerf the KDK-3, is to move the ballistic points.

Or PGI could've have to foresight to not give this variant ballistic hardpoint inflation, in the first place. Was the stock build, 2x LB20-X and 4x ERML, deficient in killing power or viability?

Or they knew full well what they were unleashing on the game, and did it to sell more mech packs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Tristan Winter, on 14 October 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

With a few exceptions, it has little to do with feelings of fear or domination or people being a big baby. It has more to do with the fact that the numbers speak for themselves and the KDK-3 is generally outperforming all other assault mechs (and most other mechs in general) to a significant degree. If anyone is doing 1000+ damage in a match, it's usually a KDK-3, as a rule of thumb. People just don't enjoy that kind of imbalance. It's not fun.

It's also entirely possible you're not regularly exposed to what top players (and elite groups) can do with a KDK-3, but that kind of speculation isn't very constructive, so we don't need to go there.

But here is the thing, there is always going to be one mech that is outperforming all others so what is the big deal? Instead just look at it a challenge and more on. Also while Kodiaks are certainly popular, so are alot of other mechs. Generally for every Kodiak in a match, there will also be a Warhammer but even then, we are still seeing an extremely wide distribution of mechs being used in normal gameplay. I mean it isn't like the Type 59 was in WoT when there were literally 7-10 Type 59s per side in a match. 2 or 3 Kodiaks per side, doesn't alter gameplay, it just adds some powerful mechs to field that you have to be cautious of. Additionally it isn't like it is the only mech you have to be cautious of. There are tons of mechs and mech builds that are extremely powerful and hard to deal with so why not do what you do when you encounter them, which simply adapt. Honestly I feel alot of people are making a big thing out of nothing.

Another thing I will add on thing here. Top, Elite Players make up about 10% of the total player base so why does a game always have to revolve around them? What about the other 90% of us? Also Top, Elite players are supposed to be, well, Elite which means they are supposed to be neigh unstoppable. They are going to tear up any normal player they face, regardless of what mech they are piloting. I mean I have seen players rack up 1000 damage in a Arctic Cheetah because they are just that good.

Also if you are a Top, Elite, Competitive player, then you should either be good enough to deal with the Kodiak on the battlefield or quit piloting inferior mechs. I mean if I want to compete in the Tour de France I am not going to try to win it on a $500 store bought bicycle and then when I lose complain because the other competitors were using $15,000 custom made bicycles. That is pretty much what is happening here, "Competitive players" are complaining that their favorite Marauder isn't as good as the Kodiak so please nerf the Kodiak.

Finally, these Top Elite Players just need to go the hell away already. 90% of us aren't playing the same game they are, so they need to stop screwing it up for everyone else.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 14 October 2016 - 04:28 PM.

[adamts01]

Void Angel, on 14 October 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

The Kodiak is still very strong, and performs disproportionately well in its weight class. But that whole 15 points of extra damage needed to kill it through the CT is not what makes the Kodiak overpowered - it's the other characteristics that you listed.

Most people arguing for a KDK3 nerf agree with you, that the mech would still be top dog without a single quirk. I definitely think so. So why give it any quirks? It just doesn't make sense. I don't want it nerfed to the ground, in normal PGI fashion, so I think removal of all + quirks is a decent first step. Although after all the data they have on the thing, they could go a little further at this point.

Viktor Drake, on 14 October 2016 - 02:22 PM, said:

I don't know if I agree. This nerf/buff, nerf/buff cycle just really pisses me off. Prime Example was the JJ nerf we had a while back.

There'll always be a best, and always be a worst, no matter how much you try to balance things. But constant balance is a necessity in multiplayer games. Sometimes they do a good job, like removing CT seeking streaks, other times they **** up like with jump jets. I wish they'd nerf/buff much more often, but with baby steps and not being ********.

Mcgral18, on 14 October 2016 - 03:37 PM, said:

I'd rather blame the cause, PGI

Yeah. Most of the time companies make what people buy. But in this case, it's the opposite, and the population is proof of that. When they do listen to their customers, thy don't use their heads, like with the locust nerf. Oh well. I'm having fun with Planetside 2. I'm thinking about giving EVE another try, maybe do that till Star Citizen is a little further along. I just hit my braking point with MWO when PGI treated my poor little lights the way they did. And that sad, sad CW3. What the hell was all the hype for?

[Snowbluff]

LT. HARDCASE, on 14 October 2016 - 04:10 PM, said:

Or PGI could've have to foresight to not give this variant ballistic hardpoint inflation, in the first place.

The most powerful kodiaks only use 2 ballastic hardpoints for Gauss, with maybe 2 MGs for slight higher hardpoints (which doesn't matter much as the regular hardpoints are already cockpit level).

[Captain Stiffy]

Chados, on 14 October 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

The truth has been spoken.

Bring back the Cat...especially the Jester's...ear armor and structure quirks. And for the love of God, do something about the Quickdraws! Other than the IV-4 they fly apart if you look at them cross eyed.

Because they don't do it on a mech-by-mech basis.

ONE way to do this...

As a business analyst or analyst programmer or however you want to title the job that has such an activity when tasked with "balance all mechs according to these new rules" you get out a spreadsheet and start listing and totaling things until you have what looks like balance among all of your tallies and adjust everything accordingly by making judgements based on other factors your sheet considers like hardpoints, energy cost, etc... all the 'rules' slated for balance consideration.

It probably isn't done by someone with 5000 play hours that knows every single mech. No matter how much it should be.

Edit: Everything probably seems totally forked up right now because energy is coming really soon and the weapons are all probably balanced for that. I would bank c-bills. Every single loadout and the entire top meta is about to change. Seen it half a dozen or more times now from these devs.\

there was the no heat damage era where the 6 PPC stalker was god
there was the LRM hell era (several times on and off I miss twisty death-spiral coring ARTEMIS though)
there was the light-lag bullcrap/terrible hit detection era
there was the oversold and as such overpowered clans era
there was the nerfing of the clans and the rise of quirks
there was the nerfing of the quirks and the rise of heavies and assaults

I missed so many eras but the next era is the energy cost era

of all things I miss the differentiation that IS had with the initial quirks it really made the game feel more complete

we need more differentiation that is not weapon-related!!!!!!! the cyclops was a great start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited by Captain Stiffy, 14 October 2016 - 05:12 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Viktor Drake, on 14 October 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

But here is the thing, there is always going to be one mech that is outperforming all others so what is the big deal?

It all depends on the disparity. If the top mech is taking down ten mechs single-handedly, it's a problem. If it's only marginally better than the next mech, it's not such a big problem.

Viktor Drake, on 14 October 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Another thing I will add on thing here. Top, Elite Players make up about 10% of the total player base so why does a game always have to revolve around them?

Basically, it's commonly regarded to be a good idea to balance the game from top down, rather than bottom-up or focusing on the guys in the middle. Needless to say, you should ideally make the game so that gameplay is enjoyable at all levels of play. That's why games like Street Fighter have simple combinations or special attacks that even beginners can grasp.

It's problematic when you don't balance the game around the elite level, for several reasons.

• It's a helpful tool to motivate players when elite level play is as good as possible. You want to motivate players to get better and reach higher strata. This ensures long term interest. Some games do this artificially (e.g. F2P games like Star Conflict where you unlock various abilities and game modes if you keep grinding to higher tier ships) and others do it naturally.
  
• It's harmful for the population if players want to avoid the elite level because the gameplay there isn't properly balanced. This leads to "sandbagging". People trying to artificially lower their results to avoid high ranks (e.g. Tier 1) or people creating alt accounts to club seals. If elite level MWO was all about the KDK-3 and all other mechs were useless by comparison, it wouldn't just hurt the top 1% of the players, it would trickle down to lower levels as elite players went on an exodus to escape their boring meta.
  
• To the degree you want to make an esport like Starcraft or Counterstrike, it's a bad thing if the elite metagame is horribly imbalanced and boring to watch.

Viktor Drake, on 14 October 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

Also if you are a Top, Elite, Competitive player, then you should either be good enough to deal with the Kodiak on the battlefield or quit piloting inferior mechs. I mean if I want to compete in the Tour de France I am not going to try to win it on a $500 store bought bicycle and then when I lose complain because the other competitors were using $15,000 custom made bicycles. That is pretty much what is happening here, "Competitive players" are complaining that their favorite Marauder isn't as good as the Kodiak so please nerf the Kodiak.

It's not really a good example, is it? The Tour de France isn't being held by the people who make bikes and the $500 bike isn't advertised as being as good as a $15,000 custom made bike. Nobody is trying to balance bikes and nerfing carbon frames or aluminum pedals.

It's a completely different dynamic for a game like MWO. It's more like someone making a tabletop game like Warhammer 40,000 or Battletech or Blood Bowl, and then just letting one particular faction or unit be horribly OP. And when the players complain that it's no fun playing against the Space Marines in 2nd edition and their OP 4th level Grand Master Librarians in Terminator armour with 200 points of force fields and warp grenades, imagine if Games Workshop responded with "git gud".

Real sports like cycling or football is kind of different, because each competitor is allowed to get any kind of equipment that money can buy, as long as it fits the regulations.

[Deathlike]

Mcgral18, on 14 October 2016 - 01:12 PM, said:

Gotta sell those grabdeals



Heh...I remember my Myth Lynx thread, near the beginning.
People in this very thread defended the hardlocked equipment
"Good for a 25 ton mech"
http://mwomercs.com/...d-active-probe/

Oh, so silly

Even the last Light mech leaderboard event is not evidence enough of the obvious.

I mean, there must be some sort of conspiratorial Mist Lynx meta where they tell Assault mechs to put their hands up or something.

Mystere, on 14 October 2016 - 03:33 PM, said:

Well, I blame all the ******* whiners, the loud incessant bottom-of-the-barrel ******* whiners for the sorry state of JJs on anything but lights and some mediums.




Because it is so much much easier to run to the forums and cry to Momma PGI, that's why.

I'm mostly convinced that some people don't know what a crutch is or are fearful that their crutch may potentially be removed.

Some people still don't know the definition of good or competent when it comes to this game.

Mind you, this reasoning gets used in other cases (mostly Lights), but only because people haven't gotten to an adequate level of skill (to shoot Lights properly).

Viktor Drake, on 14 October 2016 - 04:26 PM, said:

But here is the thing, there is always going to be one mech that is outperforming all others so what is the big deal? Instead just look at it a challenge and more on. Also while Kodiaks are certainly popular, so are alot of other mechs. Generally for every Kodiak in a match, there will also be a Warhammer but even then, we are still seeing an extremely wide distribution of mechs being used in normal gameplay. I mean it isn't like the Type 59 was in WoT when there were literally 7-10 Type 59s per side in a match. 2 or 3 Kodiaks per side, doesn't alter gameplay, it just adds some powerful mechs to field that you have to be cautious of. Additionally it isn't like it is the only mech you have to be cautious of. There are tons of mechs and mech builds that are extremely powerful and hard to deal with so why not do what you do when you encounter them, which simply adapt. Honestly I feel alot of people are making a big thing out of nothing.

Another thing I will add on thing here. Top, Elite Players make up about 10% of the total player base so why does a game always have to revolve around them? What about the other 90% of us? Also Top, Elite players are supposed to be, well, Elite which means they are supposed to be neigh unstoppable. They are going to tear up any normal player they face, regardless of what mech they are piloting. I mean I have seen players rack up 1000 damage in a Arctic Cheetah because they are just that good.

Also if you are a Top, Elite, Competitive player, then you should either be good enough to deal with the Kodiak on the battlefield or quit piloting inferior mechs. I mean if I want to compete in the Tour de France I am not going to try to win it on a $500 store bought bicycle and then when I lose complain because the other competitors were using $15,000 custom made bicycles. That is pretty much what is happening here, "Competitive players" are complaining that their favorite Marauder isn't as good as the Kodiak so please nerf the Kodiak.

Finally, these Top Elite Players just need to go the hell away already. 90% of us aren't playing the same game they are, so they need to stop screwing it up for everyone else.

When things are borked at the lower tiers, it gets actually worse in the higher tiers. You might be "good enough" at this level to do "OK" (and looking at the leaderboard stats, you're not doing that hot yourself), but at the highest levels, the issue gets magnified and the whining proliferates on all levels (essentially more "Kodiak is OP" threads).

If you think what you're doing is "enough", what better players do with it is "a lot more than enough".

[UnofficialOperator]

Look, you guys should look at it the other way. If you are a scrub like me, go ahead and use the KDK 3 to your hearts content because "hey crutch". If you are an elite pilot, take other mechs if you feel like taking a handicap ala golf.

And for the elite pilots, use only the basic mechs with no modules k?

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 14 October 2016 - 05:07 PM.

[Novakaine]

Man ignore them most of these guys would make a dead man sad.
Just tell the "Git Gud" boys to stick it.
Kodiak are simply OP that is until PGI see a profit loss then we'll see a nerf.
Then PGI will put out another clan mech
Of course that will be OP also.
Helpful hint don't take em head on and shoot for the legs.

[Random Carnage]

/yawn

[El Bandito]

Snowbluff, on 14 October 2016 - 01:01 PM, said:

Not that I'm saying that it shouldn't be tweaked, but this logic is bad. Do you stare at king crabs and maulers? And Direwolves and Night Gyrs?? Of course ******* not. Don't stare at assaults. Reposition as best you can, take advantage of mobility and information.

Don't found a nerf on a bad argument.

And I will tell you the exact same thing I told Victor Drake since he said the same thing.

El Bandito, on 14 October 2016 - 10:19 AM, said:

You still don't get it. They ALL died. Not even those 90 tons or above mechs that were suppose to "be able to stand up to the Kodiak-3", had any more success of surviving by fighting me head on.
Mauler, Cyclops, King Crab, Battlemaster, Banshee, Stalker, Executioner... all scrap. Atlas is only a concern if it somehow managed to get within 250 meters without getting damaged in the process.

Only the Dire Whale can out-gun the KDK-3 at all ranges, but that mech is already obsolete in all other aspects, and thus pretty much gone from the queue. As I said, KDK-3 is an outlier. And it needs to be reined in.

[adamts01]

UnofficialOperator, on 14 October 2016 - 05:05 PM, said:

Look, you guys should look at it the other way. If you are a scrub like me, go ahead and use the KDK 3 to your hearts content because "hey crutch". If you are an elite pilot, take other mechs if you feel like taking a handicap ala golf.

And for the elite pilots, use only the basic mechs with no modules k?

A couple problems there. Crutches get players artificially high in MM. That's not such a big deal in MWO with the joke we all call PSR. But imagine a tier 5 using LRMs his whole career. You can get to tier 2 pretty quickly like that. Now all of a sudden players don't stand in the open, core you while your missiles are still in flight, and your LRM's aren't what they used to be. Now you call for LRMs to be buffed, while a few tiers ago they were calling for LRM nerfs. The crutch player sucks so bad he never learned positioning or aiming with real weapons. And now he's screwed. He's not having fun, and his team hates him. It's one thing to have easier to use weapons, but straight up crutches are bad.

As for intentionally gimping yourself, with MM the way it is, you'll go from easy button mode one match to having to carry your scrub team against 2 comp players the next, so you have to be prepared. I stopped running meta carry mechs in favor of more fun mixed builds soon after PSR was introduced and just had to accept losing a lot more. Went from over a 2:0 W/L down to around 1:5. It was letting the team down for sure. These matches happen without fail. As soon as your group switches to Urbies and Mist Lynxs you'll run in to nothing but comp teams running all Cheetahs and Oxides. And as soon as one comp team switches to LOL mechs, they'll run in to another comp team running meta. I really hate MWO.