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Nerf The Kodiak 3 Already


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#141 Angel of Annihilation

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:33 PM

View PostTristan Winter, on 14 October 2016 - 04:58 PM, said:

It all depends on the disparity. If the top mech is taking down ten mechs single-handedly, it's a problem. If it's only marginally better than the next mech, it's not such a big problem.


Basically, it's commonly regarded to be a good idea to balance the game from top down, rather than bottom-up or focusing on the guys in the middle. Needless to say, you should ideally make the game so that gameplay is enjoyable at all levels of play. That's why games like Street Fighter have simple combinations or special attacks that even beginners can grasp.

It's problematic when you don't balance the game around the elite level, for several reasons.
  • It's a helpful tool to motivate players when elite level play is as good as possible. You want to motivate players to get better and reach higher strata. This ensures long term interest. Some games do this artificially (e.g. F2P games like Star Conflict where you unlock various abilities and game modes if you keep grinding to higher tier ships) and others do it naturally.
  • It's harmful for the population if players want to avoid the elite level because the gameplay there isn't properly balanced. This leads to "sandbagging". People trying to artificially lower their results to avoid high ranks (e.g. Tier 1) or people creating alt accounts to club seals. If elite level MWO was all about the KDK-3 and all other mechs were useless by comparison, it wouldn't just hurt the top 1% of the players, it would trickle down to lower levels as elite players went on an exodus to escape their boring meta.
  • To the degree you want to make an esport like Starcraft or Counterstrike, it's a bad thing if the elite metagame is horribly imbalanced and boring to watch.

It's not really a good example, is it? The Tour de France isn't being held by the people who make bikes and the $500 bike isn't advertised as being as good as a $15,000 custom made bike. Nobody is trying to balance bikes and nerfing carbon frames or aluminum pedals.

It's a completely different dynamic for a game like MWO. It's more like someone making a tabletop game like Warhammer 40,000 or Battletech or Blood Bowl, and then just letting one particular faction or unit be horribly OP. And when the players complain that it's no fun playing against the Space Marines in 2nd edition and their OP 4th level Grand Master Librarians in Terminator armour with 200 points of force fields and warp grenades, imagine if Games Workshop responded with "git gud".

Real sports like cycling or football is kind of different, because each competitor is allowed to get any kind of equipment that money can buy, as long as it fits the regulations.



The problem is that the Competitive side of this game is so completely different from the game play that most of us take part in that it generally holds no relevance to general game play. They keep balancing things based on meta builds that most of us don't even use or can't use effectively even if we do. This "balancing" then cascades down into the lower level game play like an avalanche destroying the fun everyone else is having. This is why we can't have nice things like JJs that actually work.

I will sort of agree with you however. The game should be balanced toward the higher end of skill but it when I say that, I mean the higher end of skill in non-competitive or Elite Tier game play. The Elite Tier or Competitive grade players should be considered outliers and thrown out of the equation.

#142 Deathlike

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:49 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 14 October 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:



The problem is that the Competitive side of this game is so completely different from the game play that most of us take part in that it generally holds no relevance to general game play. They keep balancing things based on meta builds that most of us don't even use or can't use effectively even if we do. This "balancing" then cascades down into the lower level game play like an avalanche destroying the fun everyone else is having. This is why we can't have nice things like JJs that actually work.

I will sort of agree with you however. The game should be balanced toward the higher end of skill but it when I say that, I mean the higher end of skill in non-competitive or Elite Tier game play. The Elite Tier or Competitive grade players should be considered outliers and thrown out of the equation.


The Kodiak-3 as currently constituted IS a massive staple of current Assault gameplay.

That's the error you're making here.

Edited by Deathlike, 14 October 2016 - 06:49 PM.


#143 adamts01

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:52 PM

View PostViktor Drake, on 14 October 2016 - 06:33 PM, said:



The problem is that the Competitive side of this game is so completely different from the game play that most of us take part in that it generally holds no relevance to general game play. They keep balancing things based on meta builds that most of us don't even use or can't use effectively even if we do. This "balancing" then cascades down into the lower level game play like an avalanche destroying the fun everyone else is having. This is why we can't have nice things like JJs that actually work.
You're acting like everyone and their mom was't pop-tarting. It wasn't just the comp scene. And comp players aren't why we can't have jumpjets and other nice things, it's because PGI is stupid.

#144 Chados

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:55 PM

View Postadamts01, on 14 October 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

As for intentionally gimping yourself, with MM the way it is, you'll go from easy button mode one match to having to carry your scrub team against 2 comp players the next, so you have to be prepared. I stopped running meta carry mechs in favor of more fun mixed builds soon after PSR was introduced and just had to accept losing a lot more. Went from over a 2:0 W/L down to around 1:5. It was letting the team down for sure. These matches happen without fail. As soon as your group switches to Urbies and Mist Lynxs you'll run in to nothing but comp teams running all Cheetahs and Oxides. And as soon as one comp team switches to LOL mechs, they'll run in to another comp team running meta. I really hate MWO.


You know, MWO is the only...seriously, the only...PvP game I play. This is it.

I tried World of Tanks and World of Warships. Uninstalled both in a week. Saltier player base, more one-shot invisikills, more derp, more griefing, more teamkilling, more grinding with their insane vehicle tier system...than in the worst 12-0 MWO stomps. I play Armored Warfare and STO but only PvE and both so rarely that on my lifer STO account we got back when the game first started, every time I log in I have a silly amount of Zen banked because I haven't booted it up in a month of Sundays. Whereas I'm in MWO every day, almost and have been for the last fifteen months. And I've spent an insane amount of actual money getting the nostalgiamechs from way back in the day from other Mechwarrior titles I've played. PuG queue never gets old. The playing field never changes but what happens on it is never quite the same even when everyone is using the same tactics. If I get bored I just change mechs...which requires me to change tactics because a Marauder 3R and a Jester...to cite two of my most run mechs...don't play the same way. Ever.

MWO. Your mileage may vary.

Edited by Chados, 14 October 2016 - 06:57 PM.


#145 Captain Stiffy

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 06:59 PM

Every slapnuts has an opinion on this.

If new mechs weren't good they wouldn't be purchased.

Never pre-order anything. If you do never *****.

This is candy crush with mechs. You decided to play F2P suck it up biznitch.

#146 Mcgral18

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:06 PM

View PostCaptain Stiffy, on 14 October 2016 - 06:59 PM, said:

Every slapnuts has an opinion on this.

If new mechs weren't good they wouldn't be purchased.

Never pre-order anything. If you do never *****.

This is candy crush with mechs. You decided to play F2P suck it up biznitch.


What a terrible opinion

#147 adamts01

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 07:47 PM

View PostChados, on 14 October 2016 - 06:55 PM, said:

You know, MWO is the only...seriously, the only...PvP game I play. This is it.

I tried World of Tanks and World of Warships. Uninstalled both in a week. Saltier player base, more one-shot invisikills, more derp, more griefing, more teamkilling, more grinding with their insane vehicle tier system...than in the worst 12-0 MWO stomps. I play Armored Warfare and STO but only PvE and both so rarely that on my lifer STO account we got back when the game first started, every time I log in I have a silly amount of Zen banked because I haven't booted it up in a month of Sundays. Whereas I'm in MWO every day, almost and have been for the last fifteen months. And I've spent an insane amount of actual money getting the nostalgiamechs from way back in the day from other Mechwarrior titles I've played. PuG queue never gets old. The playing field never changes but what happens on it is never quite the same even when everyone is using the same tactics. If I get bored I just change mechs...which requires me to change tactics because a Marauder 3R and a Jester...to cite two of my most run mechs...don't play the same way. Ever.

MWO. Your mileage may vary.

PvP in MWO is awesome. It's lack of twitchyness lets tactics and positioning rule. It's awesome that you're having a great time after 15 months. It got unbearable for me at around my 3 year mark. If it weren't for my love of the franchise I wouldn't have stuck around so long. Different mechs play differently, but in the end, it's the same fight since beta. I was holding out for CW but that never materialized. Games out there pretty much suck right now. For PvP, Squad is my favorite. It's really the ultimate for teamwork and tactics, as far as a shooter is concerned. Sadly, that game doesn't like my computer and doesn't handle my current ping too well. Right now I'm digging Planetside 2. It sucks because no one in my timezone speaks English, same as MWO, but when I wake up early and and play with a bunch of Americans it's awesome. Both of those games have a lot of one hit kills, but the gameplay is solid, so it doesn't really matter. Everything else just sucks right now. AAA titles are watered down garbage and simplified for the rinse and repeat masses. I never tried Elite Dangerous but it looks like the completely moved away from PvP in their open world, which I think is sure to kill it. I like the concept of EVE but the combat never appealed to me. I think Star Citizen will be awesome, but yeah, waiting and waiting and waiting for that. If anything, people sticking with MWO is an indication of just how crappy the multiplayer industry is right now. If anyone has any other awesome games that aren't CoD kind of run and gun I'd love to hear about them, as everything I'm currently doing is just killing time till something better comes along.

#148 jjm1

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 08:42 PM

View Postadamts01, on 14 October 2016 - 07:47 PM, said:

PvP in MWO is awesome. It's lack of twitchyness lets tactics and positioning rule. It's awesome that you're having a great time after 15 months. It got unbearable for me at around my 3 year mark. If it weren't for my love of the franchise I wouldn't have stuck around so long. Different mechs play differently, but in the end, it's the same fight since beta. I was holding out for CW but that never materialized. Games out there pretty much suck right now. For PvP, Squad is my favorite. It's really the ultimate for teamwork and tactics, as far as a shooter is concerned. Sadly, that game doesn't like my computer and doesn't handle my current ping too well. Right now I'm digging Planetside 2. It sucks because no one in my timezone speaks English, same as MWO, but when I wake up early and and play with a bunch of Americans it's awesome. Both of those games have a lot of one hit kills, but the gameplay is solid, so it doesn't really matter. Everything else just sucks right now. AAA titles are watered down garbage and simplified for the rinse and repeat masses. I never tried Elite Dangerous but it looks like the completely moved away from PvP in their open world, which I think is sure to kill it. I like the concept of EVE but the combat never appealed to me. I think Star Citizen will be awesome, but yeah, waiting and waiting and waiting for that. If anything, people sticking with MWO is an indication of just how crappy the multiplayer industry is right now. If anyone has any other awesome games that aren't CoD kind of run and gun I'd love to hear about them, as everything I'm currently doing is just killing time till something better comes along.


I just picked up Fractured Space. It took a few games to get into it but seems more balanced. And not blindingly overpriced if you decide to buy stuff, unlike this other game I wont mention.

#149 adamts01

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 09:21 PM

Captain Stiffy, on 15 October 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:
Every slapnuts has an opinion on this.

If new mechs weren't good they wouldn't be purchased.

Never pre-order anything. If you do never *****.

This is candy crush with mechs. You decided to play F2P suck it up biznitch.

View PostMcgral18, on 14 October 2016 - 07:06 PM, said:

What a terrible opinion

He does have a point. PGI has been in this rut where their only income is mechpacks for so long that they're stuck there. The Kodiak sold and continues to sell like hot cakes $$$$$. While most that pre-ordered the Phoenix Hawk are raging that they'll never spend a penny on this game again. Crap balance and OP mechs are all that's keeping this sinking ship above water. I'm of the opinion that it's too late to turn things around, so it makes financial sense to go down the pay to win rout.

#150 Mystere

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:45 PM

View Postadamts01, on 14 October 2016 - 06:52 PM, said:

You're acting like everyone and their mom was't pop-tarting. It wasn't just the comp scene. And comp players aren't why we can't have jumpjets and other nice things, it's because PGI is stupid so many loud ******* whiners who play this game cried about JJs like newborn babies.


Just an alternative viewpoint.

#151 Battlemaster56

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Posted 14 October 2016 - 11:55 PM

View PostMystere, on 14 October 2016 - 11:45 PM, said:


Just an alternative viewpoint.

Pretty much this in my opinion

#152 adamts01

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 02:01 AM

View PostMystere, on 14 October 2016 - 11:45 PM, said:


Just an alternative viewpoint.

Who's more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?

#153 Mystere

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 02:26 AM

View Postadamts01, on 15 October 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

Who's more foolish, the fool, or the fool who follows him?


Financial pressures make most people do really foolish things.

Example: 5000 Wells Fargo employees who created 2 million fake accounts. Posted Image

Edited by Mystere, 15 October 2016 - 02:30 AM.


#154 Bud Crue

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:01 AM

View Postadamts01, on 14 October 2016 - 09:21 PM, said:

Captain Stiffy, on 15 October 2016 - 10:59 AM, said:
Every slapnuts has an opinion on this.

If new mechs weren't good they wouldn't be purchased.

Never pre-order anything. If you do never *****.

This is candy crush with mechs. You decided to play F2P suck it up biznitch.


He does have a point. PGI has been in this rut where their only income is mechpacks for so long that they're stuck there. The Kodiak sold and continues to sell like hot cakes $$$$$. While most that pre-ordered the Phoenix Hawk are raging that they'll never spend a penny on this game again. Crap balance and OP mechs are all that's keeping this sinking ship above water. I'm of the opinion that it's too late to turn things around, so it makes financial sense to go down the pay to win rout.


Disagree, to an extent. Most I know who bought the Phoenix Hawk bought it near exclusively out of nostalgia. Many of us knew very well that it would suck. We bought it anyway. Rifleman was obviously to be another glass cannon, yet people bought it. How many bought the Viper thinking it was going to be a dominant force? Not many, most of the threads I recall were merely agog over its jump potential.

Point is, is that folks buy for a lot of reasons (I just bought Victors BECAUSE they are considered by most to be one of the worst mechs and I wanted to see just how bad it is. FYI: its bad, but I digress), be it for nostalgia, novelty or whatever. Yes the Kodiak (3) feels like ptw to many, but this is PGI we are talking about; and that's where the real issue, at least to me, comes in, and you get to it in your final comment: "crap balance". I mean c'mon, how many fully expected the Kodiak 3 to get nerfed when it became available for MC or cbills? A lot. Ya know why? Because that is often how PGI has "balanced" in the past. That would not have surprised anyone. The fact that they haven't done it yet is the only thing that is unusual here. And the only reason that they haven't done it, is due to their short sighted, ham fisted, player enraging PR stunt of holding off any changes until mechcon.

So don't worry, they will address the "balance" in due time -likely right after mechcon. So enjoy the Kodiak 3 for the next couple of months because, again, this is PGI we are dealing with, and they may very well decide to Victorize it; and won't that just make the community happy?

#155 Y E O N N E

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:12 AM

The other reason they haven't done anything to the KDK-3 is because it isn't strong for reasons that can be quickly remedied. They can't just remove some quirks and be done, no, they have to actually mess with equipment, agility stats, and/or hard-point location at least somewhere else in the game if not on the Kodiak directly. This makes PGI not interested, because that would take work.

#156 Bud Crue

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:19 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 15 October 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

The other reason they haven't done anything to the KDK-3 is because it isn't strong for reasons that can be quickly remedied. They can't just remove some quirks and be done, no, they have to actually mess with equipment, agility stats, and/or hard-point location at least somewhere else in the game if not on the Kodiak directly. This makes PGI not interested, because that would take work.


There is no way that they will do that work. If they do anything (and I think they will) it will be quirk based in the by nerfing the KDK-3, and/or buffing other mechs. Or worse introduce a new OP IS mech to "balance" in the usual half-assed understanding of the word. In any case, I simply cannot fathom them actually changing the model, by hit box or hard point modification. I'll bet a mech pack on that.

#157 Y E O N N E

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:22 AM

View PostBud Crue, on 15 October 2016 - 05:19 AM, said:


There is no way that they will do that work. If they do anything (and I think they will) it will be quirk based in the by nerfing the KDK-3, and/or buffing other mechs. Or worse introduce a new OP IS mech to "balance" in the usual half-assed understanding of the word. In any case, I simply cannot fathom them actually changing the model, by hit box or hard point modification. I'll bet a mech pack on that.


They somewhat recently stated they will not do negative quirks again, and there is nothing they can really do to bring other 'Mechs up, quirk-wise, without basically destroying the game...because the quirk requirements are ridiculous.

#158 Bud Crue

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:23 AM

View PostYeonne Greene, on 15 October 2016 - 05:22 AM, said:


They somewhat recently stated they will not do negative quirks again, and there is nothing they can really do to bring other 'Mechs up, quirk-wise, without basically destroying the game...because the quirk requirements are ridiculous.


Yep. I stand by my expectation stated above.

#159 Hanky Spam

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:27 AM

The main reason why the KDK-3 is so good is, that it is a 100 ton non-omnipod clan mech with four torso ballistic hardpoints and the KDK-3 is fine as it is - imho.

I don't know if Innersphere (lore wise, but not yet implemented) does have a compareable assault mech with four torso ballistic hardpoints, but if they should have one I would suggest to release this mech as soon as possible so that this crying will hopefully stop.

#160 ice trey

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Posted 15 October 2016 - 05:35 AM

Is everyone using it?
Nerf it.
Is nobody using it?
Buff it.

When everything has more or less equal distribution, then that's proof there's nothing to ***** about. If some things are taken significantly more frequently than others, then we have a problem.





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