63 replies to this topic

[Deathlike]

Dakota1000, on 14 October 2016 - 08:25 PM, said:

Spider 5v also is a light mech with just 2 energy hardpoints that also happen to both be stuck in the CT.

At least Viper can load up arm mounted weaponry, do some fancy jumps, and actually shoot people mid air and continue on its way.

My point was specifically that having so many JJs isn't always a benefit, but in other cases a detriment.

Under very few instances is when you'll find 6 tons of JJ on a Summoner to be useful... so are the 8 tons of super Hoverjets™ on an Executioner.

[Sable]

My only complaint is that it's super fragile, it could really use some structure buffs on pretty much everything

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Deathlike, on 14 October 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

Under very few instances is when you'll find 6 5 tons of JJ on a Summoner to be useful... so are the 8 tons of super Hoverjets™ on an Executioner.

FTFY

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 14 October 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

My point was specifically that having so many JJs isn't always a benefit, but in other cases a detriment.

Under very few instances is when you'll find 6 tons of JJ on a Summoner to be useful... so are the 8 tons of super Hoverjets™ on an Executioner.

To be honest, I'd love to get a little more air time in my Summoner, or at least the Executioner. Having a few extra jump jets would mean I'd go up faster rather than hovering around and likely not use all of the fuel in one go so I'd be able to jump back up sooner rather than waiting twice the cooldown time of an ERPPC on a Summoner.

But really they don't need more weight spent on jump jets in those cases, the heavier jump jets just need to be as powerful as the light ones. Spider also has worse jump jets than the Viper just because its using the MK Vs instead of the MK IVs, which go up a bit slower. Take jumping to full height in an ACH vs full height in a Nova for comparison but double the height.

Viper only spends 4 tons on its jump jets anyway compared to the 8 tons on the Executioner but jumps 4 times as high. Could drop it down to 3 tons worth and be like the Shadow Cat.

I'm not really saying that having an excessive amount of weight put into jump jets is good, I'm just saying that the Viper (and loyalty Cicada) have the best jump jets in the game, but the Viper is finally a mech that can take full advantage of it, as the Cicada only had torso mounts and the Spider variant also only had torso mounts. The Viper could make pretty good poptart builds with 4 ERML (or 6 with Medusa pods) and some close range weapons in the torso. You'd have so much jet fuel that, unlike the Nova, you'd be able to jump back up into the air by the moment your lasers have recharged and have landed softly each time.

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 14 October 2016 - 08:30 PM, said:

Considering you have lasers, it is generally a bad idea to shoot in mid-air due to HSR being really weird. You use JJs to get into and out of places, that is really it, and you still don't need 8 JJs to do that.

The only real map that truly vindicates having 8 JJs is HPG and those walls which you can jump up on from any level on that map.

I found no issues with Hit Reg when playing my Shadow Cat or my Nova. I often load the Shadow Cat with 2 LPL and poptart or the Nova up with 8 ERML and poptart with it, at least when I'm not MASC peeking or corner peeking normally. Mentioned a few other reasons for the extra jump jets addressing the other quote in the post also in paragraph 1 and 4.

Edited by Dakota1000, 14 October 2016 - 09:54 PM.

[Gladius Vittoris]

I see some horrible piloting and loadout with the VIper.

Instead I'm sure it can have a niche.
Cannot wait it comes out for c-bills.

[Gladius Vittoris]

Deathlike, on 14 October 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

My point was specifically that having so many JJs isn't always a benefit, but in other cases a detriment.

Under very few instances is when you'll find 6 tons of JJ on a Summoner to be useful... so are the 8 tons of super Hoverjets™ on an Executioner.

Well, 2erppc summo is a blast to play with, and I'm ok with 6jj
Maybe now with 2 fresh E hardpoints in the torsi, all those JJ are far less useful, tho.

HOverjets killed so many mechs.

We need true JJ back. I want my Lander, back.....

[Mystere]

Deathlike, on 14 October 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

My point was specifically that having so many JJs isn't always a benefit, but in other cases a detriment.

Under very few instances is when you'll find 6 tons of JJ on a Summoner to be useful... so are the 8 tons of super Hoverjets™ on an Executioner.

Just bring back JJs to their former glory and things will be fine once again ... well until those loud ******** whiners cry like babies about those evil poptarts again.

There is a very good reason why we cannot have nice things in this game. <smh>

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dakota1000, on 14 October 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

The Viper could make pretty good poptart builds with 4 ERML (or 6 with Medusa pods) and some close range weapons in the torso.

Long range would go in the torso because they are high mounted and you don't need the articulation, short range is better in the arms since high mounts don't matter as much but articulation can does. Not to mention good poptarts all use PPFLD, lasers are wonky for most in midair, not to mention the burn duration isn't conducive to what makes poptarting actually strong. Lasers and poptarting have never mixed to a comp level for that reason alone.

Dakota1000, on 14 October 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

I found no issues with Hit Reg when playing my Shadow Cat or my Nova. I often load the Shadow Cat with 2 LPL and poptart or the Nova up with 8 ERML and poptart with it

You may not notice it as often, depends on high you are popping, if you are popping just enough to get a short burst on a mech, you notice it a hell of a lot more. There are some other shenanigans that happen midair with lasers though, TFun literally has a collection of gifs where laser reg midair is way off. I just don't do it if I can help it, if the target is standing still and large I'll go for it, but any sort of moving target is generally not going to reg.

Dakota1000, on 14 October 2016 - 09:53 PM, said:

but the Viper is finally a mech that can take full advantage of it, as the Cicada only had torso mounts and the Spider variant also only had torso mounts.

The arm mounts are far from being the selling point of the Viper, if anything they are the weakness of the Viper because much like the Pixie, they are often the first to be destroyed. You rely a lot more on the high mounted torso lasers than you do the arms.



The irony of this mech is like the TT version, it is better at harassing with mid range than it is at short range backstabbing, granted for slightly different reasons. The MWO version is for the most part too squishy and large to be caught that close without getting blasted so your best option is to play the mid range poke game. Given that, it would gladly trade 4 JJs (since they are the best, you don't need 8 of them to still out jump most mechs in the game) for 2 DHS on builds especially given how JJs disrupt any heat dissipation (only part of the overnerf on JJs).

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 14 October 2016 - 11:58 PM.

[DrSaphron]

I find that the people that despise the Phoenix Hawk absolutely love the Viper and the reverse also holds true. I, personally, found the Viper to be unplayable, but can easily crank out 800ish damage and 5 to 6 kills in my Phoenix Hawks per match even in tier 1 drops.

[9thDeathscream]

Nah its not useless


Better example





Will admit these are better matches but 300+ damage and 2 kills is about the minimum for this mech for me, unless its a bad stomp!

Just now on a build with zero skills and no basics unlocked!

Edited by Kharonn, 15 October 2016 - 09:30 AM.

[dervishx5]

Paul would rather see the world burn than make JJ jump again.

Edited by dervishx5, 15 October 2016 - 09:21 AM.

[Rock Roller]

I vote for a structure buff on the lines of a Spider 5D. +5 on everything.

Not crazy but helpful.

[Gas Guzzler]

6 cSPLs isn't horrible, its just not as good as the Jenner IIC or ACH at the same role

[Imperius]

HMMM DOA just like I said it would be.

[Gas Guzzler]

Imperius, on 15 October 2016 - 12:04 PM, said:

HMMM DOA just like I said it would be.

If DOA means there is another mech that can do something better, then most mechs are DOA

[Angel of Annihilation]

Deathlike, on 14 October 2016 - 08:33 PM, said:

My point was specifically that having so many JJs isn't always a benefit, but in other cases a detriment. Under very few instances is when you'll find 6 tons of JJ on a Summoner to be useful... so are the 8 tons of super Hoverjets™ on an Executioner.

I fully agree with you here. Russ screwed it all up and JJs are pretty much a total waste on anything above 50 tons which I think is why I love the jump capability of the Viper so much. Honestly it has about twice as much jumping ability as most mechs which actually makes JJs on it a useful thing to have. To be honest the JJ nerfs are probably the thing that has pissed me off more than anything else in this game. I mentioned earlier either in their tread or another thread that I had bought both the Dragon Slayer and the Heavy Metal based on their jump capabilities at release and due to the fact that JJ has been functioning the say for month and month and months, I had through JJs were pretty safe from any changes to the system then, Russ comes along and craps all over them for no go reason, making JJs useless on Assault mechs. I mean what the hell, if I invest 10 fricken tons into JJs, roughly 20% of the weight capacity of the mech, I should be able to at least jump to the top of the canyon walls on Canyon Network, but instead about the best I can do is clear something knee height to my mech. Total Fracking Doghockey.

On the Viper though, you have 105m of jump capability to play with which is a huge advantage. I mean I won't deny that it does somewhat limit your tonnage but the JJs on the Viper only weigh 0.5 tons each so 8 of them is only a 4 Ton investment.

Lastly, I also am not saying that the Viper is good where it is right now because it is not. Even though I really love my Vipers it isn't performing very well for me with stats barely at or below my average compared to other mechs. This does lead me to conclude it is under-performing and subpar. I mean just because something is fun, doesn't make them good. Overall I will bluntly say it need some additional quirks. Its two major flaws are one, its arms are too easy to destroy and two, it tends to run just a bit on the hot side. That being the case, it needs structure quirks for the arms and about a -10% to energy heat generation to bring it to competitive levels.

Also, to be honest, the last thing it needs is an ECM pod option but I don't see that happening or at least any time soon. I do know there is at least one variant of the Viper that mounts ECM though it is a really obscure variant, however this means maybe, just maybe we will get a ECM capable variant as a Loyalty Reward or some such down the road. One can hope anyway.

[Carlieth]

I find my Viper to be quite a strange little stinger. 8Smlpulse in two sets of four although hot can be devastating to stationary sniper lights. it has the speed and with radar dep the hiding to be sneaky and rear end em.

I have found though that with its speed the more cluttered the level the better I am surviving and scoring more kills / damage dealt as she can dodge and weave faster than anything else in the game. I used to run with a large pulse laser or erppc and 5xsml laser for sniping but the took away my fav sniper spot in the new frozen city. Only reachable by other vipers or the phoenix hawk.

although the viper has the armour of a wet paper bag I am finding more and more to have fun with her.

Serial Nine Nine may she run forever.

[Levi Porphyrogenitus]

I've been reasonably impressed by Vipers I've seen in the wild. They're fast, low-profile mediums in the same vein as the Cicada and Crab, though admittedly the latter is slower and more armored, and since it's clan it has more survivability (if you are a competent mechwarrior who spreads incoming damage) and more firepower at longer range than IS alternatives.

[Imperius]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 October 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

If DOA means there is another mech that can do something better, then most mechs are DOA

Omg I didn't know that! You mean when I was talking about hardpoint location matters and mech saturation I was right?

Edited by Imperius, 15 October 2016 - 03:12 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Imperius, on 15 October 2016 - 03:11 PM, said:

Omg I didn't know that! You mean when I was talking about hardpoint location matters and mech saturation I was right?

So basically, the only assault we need is the Stone Rhino 2 because that is the only mech that has potential to compete with the Kodiak? Every other assault is going to be DoA.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 15 October 2016 - 03:58 PM.