206 replies to this topic

[Gas Guzzler]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

When was this?

Back when the IS had maybe 4 'mechs that were over quirked?

And EVEN THEN, all the Clanners had to do was focus one side torso on the 3 of them and GAME OVER.

No, the most intense clan bitching came when the IS was CLOSEST to equivalency, not surpassing.

Oh how you clanners cried and cried because 'easy mode' with longer reaching, harder hitting, lighter, smaller weapons, resulting in an ability to pack even larger alphas into your frames, was being matched by the FEW IS 'mechs that got quirks for range and heat that allowed their DPS to approach, NOT surpass, their clan equivalents.

Yeah, you're wrong. You won't see it because you're apparently so vociferously pro-clan, but you're wrong all the same.

Lol, I'm in a traditionally House Kurita unit, so I'm not a clanner. And no, "overquirked" were the intial quirk pass days. I'm talking about when the Black Knight was the best heavy, the Mauler was the best assault (Atlas for brawling), and the Blackjack was pretty much the best medium, and the pre-Cheetah when the Firestarter was the best light. More recently the Oxide took the crown but has since been nerfed.

But yeah, I'm not pro-Clan at all, I have no bias. Turn back the clocks and you will see me getting into it with Gyrok constantly for his whining about IS being OP, and you are the same way but with the opposite view. There was a significant amount of time where the best mechs were IS mechs. Do you not remember the IS vs Clan event? It had some flaws, but the IS absolutely decimated the Clan teams.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 October 2016 - 09:56 AM.

[Imperius]

LordKnightFandragon, on 17 October 2016 - 09:52 AM, said:

I fail to see how ED is going to stop PPC/Gauss Meta. The ED Recharges before the guns are even loaded. So, your Gauss Rifles spike 3 heat instead of 1 and your PPCs deal 20 instead of 15, no different then now. As for your target? Yeah, its missing w/e you hit.....

ED power recharges almost instantly, unless they seriously slowed it down, mine was back full before the shot registered...

It doesn't effect it. I've always beat people with the 30 point alpha limit in a gold dire wolf. Not only was I always a top target but I stuck out like a soar thumb and I've always played in group queue with a small group.

ED doesn't fix ttk or steam rolls. Bads will be bad and that is just that.

[Dimento Graven]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 09:54 AM, said:

Lol, I'm in a traditionally House Kurita unit, so I'm not a clanner. And no, "overquirked" were the intial quirk pass days. I'm talking about when the Black Knight was the best heavy, the Mauler was the best assault (Atlas for brawling), and the Blackjack was pretty much the best medium, and the pre-Cheetah when the Firestarter was the best light. More recently the Oxide took the crown but has since been nerfed.

But yeah, I'm not pro-Clan at all, I have no bias.

Yeah your incorrect opinions, (or maybe "incomplete" might be more accurate?) won't get anywhere with me. The BK was the best IS heavy for a time, but without quirks it was still out ranged and DPS'd by many Clan heavies. There might have been a time when the Mauler was the best IS assault, but again, it was easily out ranged, DPS'd, and PPFLD'd by most Clan assaults. The BJ, again, the only time it was "OP" as compared to "ALL" medium 'mechs (not just IS mediums) was when the quirks were so huge, otherwise, it was typically one alpha away from death.

God forbid you pilot any of those with an XL, but if you didn't, you were probably much slower than the clan equivalent, or packing a lot less of an alpha.

Your icon leads me to believe otherwise, mercenary for Jade Falcon, if I understand it correctly, which means you're currently running Clan 'mechs in FP (if you still play FP)...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 October 2016 - 10:02 AM.

[Galenit]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 09:16 AM, said:

The team mate apathy is mostly from the potatoes and other irrelevent players as they out number good players about 1000/1. Potatoes don't even care about other potatoes.

Time to break another dream:

The 1/1000 are irrelevant.
If any "potato" only pays 5 dollars, every good player has to pay 5000$ to have at least the same relevance as every potato.

Sorry, but you skill counts for nothing and is worth nothing, only what you pay has any relevance for this game.
Maybe do you want to buy a mechpack to increase your relevance?

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

The BK was the best IS heavy for a time, but without quirks it was still out ranged and DPS'd by many Clan heavies.

It being without quirks is irrelevant because that is how PGI decided to bridge the tech gap. This is you moving the goal posts.

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

There might have been a time when the Mauler was the best IS assault, but again, it was easily out ranged, DPS'd, and PPFLD'd by most Clan assaults.

This is false, the Mauler actually had the PPFLD advantage against Clan assaults because of the IS dakka it mounted, which is why it was the better DPS mech than the Dakka Whale, not to mention the range and velocity quirks which made it much better at range than Clan dakka. The Mauler was also not the only IS assault that were chosen over Clan assaults before the Kodiak.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 October 2016 - 10:14 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

Yeah your incorrect opinions, (or maybe "incomplete" might be more accurate?) won't get anywhere with me. The BK was the best IS heavy for a time, but without quirks it was still out ranged and DPS'd by many Clan heavies. There might have been a time when the Mauler was the best IS assault, but again, it was easily out ranged, DPS'd, and PPFLD'd by most Clan assaults. The BJ, again, the only time it was "OP" as compared to "ALL" medium 'mechs (not just IS mediums) was when the quirks were so huge, otherwise, it was typically one alpha away from death.

God forbid you pilot any of those with an XL, but if you didn't, you were probably much slower than the clan equivalent, or packing a lot less of an alpha.

Your icon leads me to believe otherwise, mercenary for Jade Falcon, if I understand it correctly, which means you're currently running Clan 'mechs in FP (if you still play FP)...

I don't play FP, you might as well ignore my tag. The person who picks what faction we are with is one of a handful in Night's Scorn that actually play faction play, and its typically based on how easy it will be to get matches in FP.

I don't see what relevance a Black Knight without quirks has. It had quirks, which made it the best heavy in the game. Period.

The Mauler was the best assault until the Kodiak was released (and then the Mauler got nerfed LMAO... god, PGI sometimes). "Most Clan assaults" could not hold a candle to the Mauler (and frankly still can't, with the exception of the Kodiak-3 of course).

[Aleksandr Sergeyevich Kerensky]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 10:01 AM, said:

The BJ, again, the only time it was "OP" as compared to "ALL" medium 'mechs (not just IS mediums) was when the quirks were so huge, otherwise, it was typically one alpha away from death.

God forbid you pilot any of those with an XL, but if you didn't, you were probably much slower than the clan equivalent, or packing a lot less of an alpha.

There was a time when the BJ had the internal structure of an heavy/assault mech. (I enjoyed those days greatly... People always thought I was "One-Touch" from death... But in reality, I was bearly hurting... Opponents would dive in past enemy lines for a gready kill only to find out they jumped into the lions maw! LOL!

[Dimento Graven]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 10:13 AM, said:

I don't play FP, you might as well ignore my tag. The person who picks what faction we are with is one of a handful in Night's Scorn that actually play faction play, and its typically based on how easy it will be to get matches in FP.

I don't see what relevance a Black Knight without quirks has. It had quirks, which made it the best heavy in the game. Period.

The Mauler was the best assault until the Kodiak was released (and then the Mauler got nerfed LMAO... god, PGI sometimes). "Most Clan assaults" could not hold a candle to the Mauler (and frankly still can't, with the exception of the Kodiak-3 of course).

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 October 2016 - 10:08 AM, said:

It being without quirks is irrelevant because that is how PGI decided to bridge the tech gap. This is you moving the goal posts.


This is false, the Mauler actually had the PPFLD advantage against Clan assaults because of the IS dakka it mounted, which is why it was the better DPS mech than the Dakka Whale, not to mention the range and velocity quirks which made it much better at range than Clan dakka. The Mauler was also not the only IS assault that were chosen over Clan assaults before the Kodiak.

Again, opinions vary, and yours happens to be wrong.

The whole point of quirking these 'mechs was to bridge the gap. No goal posts are being moved on my part. Quirks are pretty much THE ONLY option to try and make the IS equivalent to the Clans when you can't eliminate 12v12, and refuse to increase the tech of the IS to equal the Clans.

Quirks probably AREN'T the best option, BUT, as far as I can tell, they've pretty much been the only option because of the previously mentioned points.

So, what happened?

As I've stated ad-nausea, a very FEW IS 'mechs approached equivalency and all the Clan centric people went ape doo-doo and now quirks are pretty much a non-factor.

A FEW 'mechs had quirks where ONE, and pretty much ONLY ONE, weapon system that could exceed the range (BUT, not the damage) of the Clanner equivalent, and again, the Clanners went absolutely ballistic. Even so far as to ***** in extreme manner as to the Locust, a 20 ton fusion powered beer can, having laser ranges, I think a total of 80meters longer than Clanners' ranges.

A laughable situation, and this was WELL BEFORE PGI added structure/armor quirks to increase survivability, such that the Locust with the exceptional range was still a very few laser blasts from death.

But hey whatever, you guys keep complaining about 'mechs that, even in your own words, NO LONGER hold their preeminent game breaking position as completely dominating every Clan chassis ever, but where are we now?

Back to where the game has been for the majority of its life cycle post Clans, damn near ALL clan 'mechs being able to sport bigger alphas, longer reaching alphas, harder hitting alphas on faster chassis that are typically more durable than their IS equivalent.

You guys keep pointing at the Atlas as some sort of brawling 'god', yet when you have Clan 'mechs pumping out easily two to three times the alpha at ranges BEYOND brawling, what good is it? How "great" is being a brawling god, when you're being pummeled down in two or three alphas by Clanner 'mechs?

Have everyone agree not to fire at each other until you're within spitting distance? What kind of 'equivalency' is that.

That's right, it's NOT equivalent, and you can't have 'balance' if there is no equivalence.

And without quirks, you can't make the current IS tech equivalent to the Clan tech, it's just not possible.

What's left? Nerfing. You gotta nerf the Clan tech.

But everyone hates nerfs, especially the Clanners.

So NOW what's left?

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 October 2016 - 10:45 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

The whole point of quirking these 'mechs was to bridge the gap. No goal posts are being moved on my part.

You are moving the goal post, because you are saying that without those quirks to bridge the gap, these mechs are not equal terms, which no one is even questioning.

The point of contention is that whether these were mechs were ever equivalent or better than the best of the Clans regardless of amount of quirks which very much did happen. Right after the rebalance, IS tech had quite the advantage, it wasn't until the IICs were available to everyone that this gap was bridged and equalized things a bit. It wasn't until the Kodiak dropped that things started to become topsy-turvy and only further exacerbated with the rescale and subsequent nerfs of the old meta. Currently the best IS stuff is a below the Clan stuff but not by much except in regards to the Kodiak, if it weren't for that things might be about equal.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 October 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Deathlike]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Again, opinions vary, and yours happens to be wrong.

The whole point of quirking these 'mechs was to bridge the gap. No goal posts are being moved on my part. Quirks are pretty much THE ONLY option to try and make the IS equivalent to the Clans when you can't eliminate 12v12, and refuse to increase the tech of the IS to equal the Clans.

Quirks probably AREN'T the best option, BUT, as far as I can tell, they've pretty much been the only option because of the previously mentioned points.

So, what happened?

As I've stated ad-nausea, a very FEW IS 'mechs approached equivalency and all the Clan centric people went ape doo-doo and now quirks are pretty much a non-factor.

A FEW 'mechs had quirks where ONE, and pretty much ONLY ONE, weapon system that could exceed the range (BUT, not the damage) of the Clanner equivalent, and again, the Clanners went absolutely ballistic. Even so far as to ***** in extreme manner as to the Locust, a 20 ton fusion powered beer can, having laser ranges, I think a total of 80meters longer than Clanners' ranges.

A laughable situation, and this was WELL BEFORE PGI added structure/armor quirks to increase survivability, such that the Locust with the exceptional range was still a very few laser blasts from death.

But hey whatever, you guys keep complaining about 'mechs that, even in your own words, NO LONGER hold their preeminent game breaking position as completely dominating every Clan chassis ever, but where are we now?

Back to where the game has been for the majority of its life cycle post Clans, damn near ALL clan 'mechs being able to sport bigger alphas, longer reaching alphas, harder hitting alphas on faster chassis that are typically more durable than their IS equivalent.

You guys keep pointing at the Atlas as some sort of brawling 'god', yet when you have Clan 'mechs pumping out easily two to three times the alpha at ranges BEYOND brawling, what good is it? How "great" is being a brawling god, when you're being pummeled down in two or three alphas by Clanner 'mechs?

Have everyone agree not to fire at each other until you're within spitting distance? What kind of 'equivalency' is that.

That's right, it's NOT equivalent, and you can't have 'balance' if there is no equivalence.

And without quirks, you can't make the current IS tech equivalent to the Clan tech, it's just not possible.

What's left? Nerfing. You gotta nerf the Clan tech.

But everyone hates nerfs, especially the Clanners.

So NOW what's left?

Dude, your posts are always about others being wrong when you won't admit to being wrong.

It doesn't move the debate along as it's more about your stance being unmovable even when legitimately countered by logic.

Clans still have plenty of garbage to work with (Mist Lynx being the top mention), but you can't really always rely on quirks to balance the game in its entirely. Even if that was the case, there is no consistency at the top to ensure that it happens (that's why we talk about our balance overlord the way we do).

Even the terrible Mist Lynx and Vindicators (and Phoenix Hawks) have quirks but they are far worse than their peers relatively speaking despite them.

It's dreadfully clear PGI's preference is to quirk everything that they screw up with (in scaling or modeling sections of the mech like large arms), but it becomes much more difficult over time to figure out what the baseline of quirks/non-quirks should be. Even the better Clan mechs in use these days still have minimal to no quirks (Hellbringer, Hunchback IIC, etc.).

You can't just unilaterally blame it on quirks for these things.

Edited by Deathlike, 17 October 2016 - 10:53 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

mindless prattling

We aren't complaining about anything. You came on here saying "woe is the IS, all of our mechs are garbage, Night Gyrs and Kodiaks stole my lunch money" and we said that the IS has good heavy options but admitted that the KDK-3 is too strong, and you went on to say how we are wrong because those IS heavies aren't nearly as good as the Clan mechs.

End of story, you are wrong, have never actually sat down and figured out what the best possible loadout for a specific situation is, and have never seen how magically certain mechs are better in certain maps, in conjunction with certain team composition, and that the "best" mechs change from situation to situation. Trying to discuss balance with you is essentially like trying to explain to a bus driver what the differences between ion propulsion and bi-propellant propulsion are and in what situations each would be more effective, so I won't bother.

Peace, and enjoy victimizing yourself over your perpetually underpowered IS mechs that will never hold a candle to Clan mechs because of some arbitrary balance criteria that you have fabricated.

[meteorol]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 10:44 AM, said:

Stuff

Dude, you are unbearably ignorant and narrow-minded.

You chose to ignore things you don't want to hear because they don't fit your agenda. You claim to care about balance and still go into full "us vs. them" mode, which absolutely kills any meaningful debate. Others here have made some valid points you chose to ignore instead of adressing them. Repeating "your opinion is wrong" like a mantra doesn't make things better.

/ignorelist

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 October 2016 - 10:53 AM, said:

You are moving the goal post, because you are saying that without those quirks to bridge the gap, these mechs are not equal terms, which no one is even questioning.

So explain how agreeing with everyone is 'moving the goal posts'.

Quote

The point of contention is that whether these were mechs were ever equivalent or better than the best of the Clans regardless of amount of quirks which very much did happen. Right after the rebalance, IS tech had quite the advantage, it wasn't until the IICs were available to everyone that this gap was bridged and equalized things a bit. It wasn't until the Kodiak dropped that things started to become topsy-turvy and only further exacerbated with the rescale and subsequent nerfs of the old meta. Currently the best IS stuff is a below the Clan stuff but not by much except in regards to the Kodiak, if it weren't for that things might be about equal.

The evidence, as shown by BOTH turkayyid events proves otherwise.

Clans were delivering LESS damage per KILL than IS, but still getting more kills than IS.

That points out that even in spite of the few supposed uber nigh unbeatable quirked IS chassis, the Clans STILL had an overall tech advantage that was NOT sufficiently bridging the gap.

One or two chassis, slightly exceeding clan performance on ONE specific weapon, while a few other IS chassis coming close to BUT NOT quite, matching clan performance on ONE specific weapon didn't lead to bridging the gap.

What was it? As I recall there was a 20% gap in performance difference from the numbers from the Turkayyid events. When one side is, in general, piloting chassis that:

Survive XL torso loss
Have free CASE
Have smaller Endo
Have smaller FerroFibrous
Have smaller weapons
Have lighter weapons
Have longer reaching weapons
Have harder hitting weapons
All resulting in 'mechs that will typically:
Hit harder
Hit at farther distances
Move faster
Last longer

Than the enemy, it's not balanced.

And continuously harping on the other side's outliers, especially when most of them no longer perform at levels being referred to even be moot to the conversation is just silly.

And how anyone can seriously claim that resizing an IS 'mech suddenly makes an XL engine more 'survivable' is just beyond silly.

No, I don't factor in resizing into the discussions, I think we all agree than, IN GENERAL FOR BOTH IS AND CLANS, the scaling was bad. It's better, but still VERY FAR from where it should be.

The stuff they've done with arms/weapon mounts is beyond non-sensical, I agree. In my opinion and from what I've observed in game, it's actually resulted in the OPPOSITE of the intent, resulting in 'mechs that are far easier to disable/kill, lowering TTK, and adding huge disparity with a few specific chassis.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

Peace, and enjoy victimizing yourself over your perpetually underpowered IS mechs that will never hold a candle to Clan mechs because of some arbitrary balance criteria that you have fabricated.

Sounds familiar doesn't it? Like say, an IS version of Cryrok?

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

So explain how agreeing with everyone is 'moving the goal posts'.

You aren't agreeing with them, because they never said anything about it, you brought it up like it has some relevance to this discussion and it doesn't.

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 11:10 AM, said:

The evidence, as shown by BOTH turkayyid events proves otherwise.

During the time that both Tukayyid events occurred Clans were in fact overpowered, the rebalance changed balance around and occurred after both Tukayyid events.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 October 2016 - 11:15 AM.

[GrimRiver]

The only meta I want back is brawling, that was the most fun and engaging.

I miss the days before the KDK-3 where I could take my atlas and blast up the assault/heavy lances without having to fear 2 KDK-3's poking over a hill to dakka me to death in 2.5 seconds.

[FupDup]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 October 2016 - 11:12 AM, said:

Sounds familiar doesn't it? Like say, an IS version of Cryrok?

I think that Graven is considerably worse than Gyrok because Gyrok at least doesn't use insults very often or accuse his opponents of having an agenda.

Graven is also unpleasant in-game, like when he complained about his Gauss Crab getting killed by a Locust or when he died early in a match and yelled at his team...and his team actually ended up winning later.

Edited by FupDup, 17 October 2016 - 11:18 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

FupDup, on 17 October 2016 - 11:16 AM, said:

Graven is also unpleasant in-game, like when he complained about his Gauss Crab not killing a Locust or when he died early in a match and yelled at his team...and his team actually ended up winning later.

Lol, I believe he has made some hackusations while yelling at his team before as well.

[Dimento Graven]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 10:55 AM, said:

We aren't complaining about anything.

Perhaps you should go reread some of your posts.

Quote

You came on here saying "woe is the IS, all of our mechs are garbage, Night Gyrs and Kodiaks stole my lunch money"

I've never said that. Not even close.

Quote

and we said that the IS has good heavy options but admitted that the KDK-3 is too strong, and you went on to say how we are wrong because those IS heavies aren't nearly as good as the Clan mechs.

The IS has options, BUT, it DOES NOT have "EQUIVALENT" options. They ARE NOT balanced, when the same weight Clan 'mech can bring more alpha, AND more speed, AND more survivability.

Quote

End of story, you are wrong, have never actually sat down and figured out what the best possible loadout for a specific situation is, and have never seen how magically certain mechs are better in certain maps, in conjunction with certain team composition, and that the "best" mechs change from situation to situation. Trying to discuss balance with you is essentially like trying to explain to a bus driver what the differences between ion propulsion and bi-propellant propulsion are and in what situations each would be more effective, so I won't bother.

And here we see where your argument hits the shits. IS pilots need to figure out "best possible loadouts for specific situations" for specific maps, with specific team composition... Apparently I guess, you're admitting that the Clans don't have to do this, or at least, it's not as much of a factor when they're in the 'mech lab?

Your insults, hysteria, hyperbole all indicate how very insecure your argument actually is.

But generally, this is how all balance discussions with Clans end up.

Quote

Peace, and enjoy victimizing yourself over your perpetually underpowered IS mechs that will never hold a candle to Clan mechs because of some arbitrary balance criteria that you have fabricated.

There's not been one thing I've stated as incorrect.

Explain to me please how when one side has:

Survive XL torso loss
Have free CASE
Have smaller Endo
Have smaller FerroFibrous
Have smaller weapons
Have lighter weapons
Have longer reaching weapons
Have harder hitting weapons

All resulting in 'mechs that will typically:
Hit harder
Hit at farther distances
Move faster
Last longer

And the other side doesn't that there's balance.

Again, all I've stated is that when there were IS 'mechs that came close to, or had ONE SPECIFIC WEAPON that exceeded Clan performance, you guys went into a 'world is ending, might as well pull the plug on the server, fill it full of concrete and drop it in the ocean' posting tirade.

To have balance you need equivalency.

Where's the equivalency?

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 October 2016 - 11:18 AM, said:

Lol, I believe he has made some hackusations while yelling at his team before as well.

Yeah, and that particular person has been permabanned since then, if I'm remembering the situation correctly.

The only other time I've "yelled" a hackusation in recent memory, I think it was pretty obvious a joke as I wasn't the person that initiated it, I was simply joining in on the fun.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 11:24 AM, said:

Yeah, and that particular person has been permabanned since then, if I'm remembering the situation correctly.

You've done that more than once, I don't have any screenshots, but I'm pretty sure you've even accused my unit of hacking before in a fit of rage.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 October 2016 - 11:27 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 17 October 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

You've done that more than once, I don't have any screenshots, but I'm pretty sure you've even accused my unit of hacking before in a fit of rage.

Really? When was this?