206 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

Oh I assure you it is coincidental. And the Night Gyr doesn't really have speed. Its slower than most IS heavies. Hell, its slower than the Dakkahammer, and its CT is pretty easy to hit, not really that survivable.

Not to mention the Night Gyr isn't really power creep since it isn't necessarily better than the Timby, granted we won't see it in comp until probably MRBC season 9 so that won't be fully tested.

[Dimento Graven]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 08:27 AM, said:

Oh I assure you it is coincidental. And the Night Gyr doesn't really have speed. Its slower than most IS heavies. Hell, its slower than the Dakkahammer, and its CT is pretty easy to hit, not really that survivable.

We'll disagree on that one.

I own the Night Gyr, and it's a 'mech that's as fast as any IS assault AND can pack firepower comparable to an IS assault, making it a Clan HEAVY that outclasses MANY IS assaults.

My favorite IS assault build, the KGC with 2 gauss, 2 ERLL, can't match the fire power, speed, or survivability of the Night Gyr with 2 gauss, 2C-ERML, 1C-ERLL. Hell, the Night Gyr even gets a close to 30meter jump capacity that the KGC will NEVER get.

So on that I feel you're very wrong.

The Night Gyr and Kodiak basically ensure the death FP, when there's so few IS options to match them (if ANY realistic options).

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 October 2016 - 08:32 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

We'll disagree on that one.

I own the Night Gyr, and it's a 'mech that's as fast as any IS assault AND can pack firepower comparable to an IS assault, making it a Clan HEAVY that outclasses MANY IS assaults.

My favorite IS assault build, the KGC with 2 gauss, 2 ERLL, can't match the fire power, speed, or survivability of the Night Gyr with 2 gauss, 2C-ERML, 1C-ERLL. Hell, the Night Gyr even gets a close to 30meter jump capacity that the KGC will NEVER get.

So on that I feel you're very wrong.

The Night Gyr and Kodiak basically ensure the death FP, when there's so few IS options to match them (if ANY realistic options).

Well, the King Crab sucks so you are referring to the status quo.

For IS heavies I would look no further than the Warhammer (dakka, or PPC/UAC5), and maybe the Grasshopper (either mid range vomit or ERLL spam) depending on the map. I'm not stoked on the BK any more.

For assaults... I might just run more heavies, but the Mauler is probably still a great pick for hot maps. I won't argue that the KDK-3 is the primary balance outlier in the game currently.. that is pretty indisputable IMO.

Admittedly, I don't play Faction Play anymore, I'm just going off of memory and what I experience in quick play gameplay.

What we need is an IS 100 tonner with good hardpoints for something other than brawling (Atlas).

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 17 October 2016 - 08:37 AM.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

I'm not sure I can agree with this stance.

I can't see how ANY particular 'game mode' is going to be able to 'fix' the situation where one half of the available 'mechs get to enjoy the speed-fire power-survivability trifecta, and the other half has to, AT BEST, compromise ONE of the trifecta to be able to have two out of the three.

Balance is horked.

Power draw is probably going to be DOA (the real solution being HEAT AFFECTS, whole other thread on that one).

So one side will remain having its, in general, significant edge over the other.

It's not coincidental that the already dwindling FP population is now practically extinct since the inception of the last few Clan 'mechs which have double down on the afore mentioned trifecta of speed-fire power-survivability...

There is a reason why I used "game modes" (i.e. plural).

Imagine a CW-centric MWO with a real campaign system, good selection of scenarios (i.e. game modes), with an extensive variety of maps. In addition, what if the difficulty levels faced by both attackers and defenders were dynamically determined via (for example) distance to capital and other major planets and reflected in-game via numbers, drop weight, and/or quality/availability of defensive structures (i.e. logistics)?

The so-called "meta" becomes practically meaningless in the sense that you're probably going to need many of them.

[Stormbringer13]

Appogee, on 16 October 2016 - 06:14 AM, said:

Add to all that the LRM gazillion guys who are standing behind the hill 800m from battle, farming remote locks.

I prefer the ~300-500m range. Gives less time to avoid my LRMs, and lets me get my own locks.

[Aresye]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 08:31 AM, said:

I own the Night Gyr, and it's a 'mech that's as fast as any IS assault AND can pack firepower comparable to an IS assault, making it a Clan HEAVY that outclasses MANY IS assaults.

Pretty sure a Wubshee or Wubmaster would make insanely quick work of a Night Gyr.

Also, King Crabs are practically never taken for comp play, even before the Kodiak was released. Most teams preferred the Banshee and Battlemaster, with maybe an Atlas-S if it was going to be a brawl. The only time I ever saw a KGC in comp play was against AS during a planetary assault in NBT, and I'm pretty sure they would have rather taken something else had it been available on that planet.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Mystere, on 17 October 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

The so-called "meta" becomes practically meaningless in the sense that you're probably going to need many of them.

Not really, even in planetary leagues from past games (like NBT), the meta is pretty consistent. While it may be a bit more diverse since different tonnages play different (average range of a fight drops with tonnage) it isn't that impressive at diversifying the meta. Using the economy to reign in the meta by making meta mechs more expensive either makes good teams that much stronger, or just makes it pointless to even bother with them if the price is stupid outrageous.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 October 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 08:36 AM, said:

...

For IS heavies I would look no further than the Warhammer (dakka, or PPC/UAC5), and maybe the Grasshopper (either mid range vomit or ERLL spam) depending on the map. I'm not stoked on the BK any more.

Yes, but those are STILL outclassed by many Clan heavies AND some Clan mediums, specifically because of the fact that most of the Clan chassis enjoy that trifecta:

Speed-Fire power-Survivability

There is absolutely NOT 'equivalency' between Clan and IS chassis because of all the 'features' of Clan tech that the IS can simply not 'match.

The IS side invariably has to sacrifice ONE portion of the trifecta to approach 'equivalency' to a Clan counterpart, granting the advantage, by default, to the Clan 'mech.

Quote

For assaults... I might just run more heavies, but the Mauler is probably still a great pick for hot maps. I won't argue that the KDK-3 is the primary balance outlier in the game currently.. that is pretty indisputable IMO.

Admittedly, I don't play Faction Play anymore, I'm just going off of memory and what I experience in quick play gameplay.

It's ok, but has a speed disadvantage, and STILL can't match the DPS of most Clan 'mechs.

It's not balanced, and really doesn't approach ton-for-ton equivalency so necessary for balance.

Quote

...

Well, the King Crab sucks so you are referring to the status quo.

What we need is an IS 100 tonner with good hardpoints for something other than brawling (Atlas).

Yeah, but that is kind of the whole point. The KGC is supposed to be a bad *** 'mech, even compared to Clan 'mechs, specifically because it's supposedly "Star League" era tech, but in MWO the 'mech is simply outclassed because it so painfully under performs.

You don't dare put an XL in it for any serious competition or FP gaming, so you compromise speed, you're certainly NOT going to get it at any speed beyond 60kph, with a standard engine and STILL have enough tonnage left over for a Clan equivalent alpha.

What's worse, there's something screwy about the movement of the 'mech. I call my KGC's the "US Robotics" of MWO because I have their speed locked in at 56.6kph. Yet, the DWF with its supposedly slower speed, is able to keep up, even pass my 'mech by at times, even though I'm NOT slowing down (at least the speed-o-bar doesn't go down indicating any slowing).

The KGC is a broke 'mech, absolutely, even if the hit boxes and movement were fixed though, it'd still be far weaker than the DWF, KDK, and even the Atlas.

But even with the Atlas being superior to the KDK, the Atlas won't be able to match the ranged DPS of the DWF and KDK with all the cumulative advantages of Clan tech.

And before all the hard core clanners get all histrionic on me, absolutely I agree that the lack of Clan vs. IS equivalency does NOT mean that Clan pilots will win every time against IS 'mechs. There's some factor of skill, and luck, that can over come the deep hole the IS is in when it comes to balance, BUT, you shouldn't have to rely on luck, and if your clan opponent has near/equal skill to you, well, again, the advantage goes to them.

It's a sad situation, really...

[Gas Guzzler]

The King Crabs shouldn't be considered. Mauler, Banshee, and Battlemaster are where its at right now, Atlas if you want to brawl.

And those heavy mechs I outlined are actually top mechs in the mid range bracket and are NOT outclassed by Clan mediums. In my opinion, the Dakkahammer and PPFLDhammer are just a bit under the Timber Wolf/Night Gyr (maybe?) but no other.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 17 October 2016 - 08:43 AM, said:

There is a reason why I used "game modes" (i.e. plural).

Imagine a CW-centric MWO with a real campaign system, good selection of scenarios (i.e. game modes), with an extensive variety of maps. In addition, what if the difficulty levels faced by both attackers and defenders were dynamically determined via (for example) distance to capital and other major planets and reflected in-game via numbers, drop weight, and/or quality/availability of defensive structures (i.e. logistics)?

The so-called "meta" becomes practically meaningless in the sense that you're probably going to need many of them.

Yeah, I knew where you were going on this and I don't care what you do to a game mode, unless a game mode is some how enforcing equivalency between the chassis and skill, it won't do one flying phallus's difference.

There is no "one side has better tech and equal numbers to the other side's weaker tech" balance.

Yeah I long advocated a "get rid of all nerfs and quirks and setup FP to be 10v12, for Clan vs. IS play", and PGI responded with "Programming is hard <sniffle, with tear drop rolling down cheek>" and the majority of Clanners responded with "OH MY GOD END OF WORLD, HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST WE CAN'T USE OUR SUPERIOR WEAPONRY AGAINST AN EQUAL NUMBER OF INFERIOR TECH OPPONENTS" shrill screaming.

So, at this point, F game modes for fixing any damn thing in this game. Stick with PGI stumbling along at current tech levels, tweaking bit by bit while apparently focusing all their efforts at short term 'cash cow milking' of adding new even more powerful Clan chassis, and the same ol' same ol' for IS chassis.

Weee!

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 09:19 AM, said:

The King Crabs shouldn't be considered. Mauler, Banshee, and Battlemaster are where its at right now, Atlas if you want to brawl.

As the only other 100 tonner for IS, it SHOULDN'T be considered?

How sad.

Quote

And those heavy mechs I outlined are actually top mechs in the mid range bracket and are NOT outclassed by Clan mediums. In my opinion, the Dakkahammer and PPFLDhammer are just a bit under the Timber Wolf/Night Gyr (maybe?) but no other.

Well, that's an interesting opinion.

Wrong.

But interesting.

[meteorol]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

It's not coincidental that the already dwindling FP population is now practically extinct since the inception of the last few Clan 'mechs which have double down on the afore mentioned trifecta of speed-fire power-survivability...

FP population is extinct because FP is bad. During the "end" of any FP season thus far the population was almost gone entirely. That was the case for season 1 and 2 aswell, before the "last few clan mechs" were even on the horizon.

Edited by meteorol, 17 October 2016 - 09:24 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeah the King Crab has bad geometry and bad hardpoint placement for its ballistics. That's just the way it is unfortunately.

And what experience backs up your opinion that it is wrong? Pretty sure it is more likely that you are wrong since you have NEVER admitted when balance favored IS even when it CLEARLY did.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 09:15 AM, said:

There is absolutely NOT 'equivalency' between Clan and IS chassis because of all the 'features' of Clan tech that the IS can simply not 'match.

Currently this is mainly because of the lack of a good IS assault that can compete with the Kodiak, and that is about it (maybe a good light that competes with the Cheetah). In the lower tiers the tech balance is still rough, but on the meta side of things there is less discrepancies. Trying to say you can't run a King Crab is suffering against a Night Gyr and blaming it just on Clan tech is a bit silly. Comparing it the Gargoyle, Warhawk, and Executioner would be more apt since none of those are top tier, but even then it does suffer, the King Crab has numerous issues that plague it and has no quirks that try to correct them.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 October 2016 - 09:28 AM.

[Dimento Graven]

meteorol, on 17 October 2016 - 09:23 AM, said:

FP population is extinct because FP is bad. During the &quot;end&quot; of any FP season thus far the population was almost gone entirely. That was the case for season 1 and 2 aswell, before the &quot;last few clan mechs&quot; were even on the horizon.

Except that since the inception of the last few Clan 'mechs even the 'hard core' IS FP teams have basically given the game mode the finger, and have either moved on to other games or, LOL-trolling team play in the public queues.

There's not even a question of cause and effect there.

Deny it all you want.

[Dimento Graven]

Gas Guzzler, on 17 October 2016 - 09:25 AM, said:

Yeah the King Crab has bad geometry and bad hardpoint placement for its ballistics. That's just the way it is unfortunately.

And what experience backs up your opinion that it is wrong? Pretty sure it is more likely that you are wrong since you have NEVER admitted when balance favored IS even when it CLEARLY did.

When was this?

Back when the IS had maybe 4 'mechs that were over quirked?

And EVEN THEN, all the Clanners had to do was focus one side torso on the 3 of them and GAME OVER.

No, the most intense clan bitching came when the IS was CLOSEST to equivalency, not surpassing.

Oh how you clanners cried and cried because 'easy mode' with longer reaching, harder hitting, lighter, smaller weapons, resulting in an ability to pack even larger alphas into your frames, was being matched by the FEW IS 'mechs that got quirks for range and heat that allowed their DPS to approach, NOT surpass, their clan equivalents.

Yeah, you're wrong. You won't see it because you're apparently so vociferously pro-clan, but you're wrong all the same.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 October 2016 - 09:34 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

Back when the IS had maybe 4 'mechs that were over quirked?

Moving the goal post are you? Disagreeing with how PGI is achieving tech balance is an entirely different discussion (and one most agree with being stupid).

As for when this was the case, prior to the release of the Kodiak, things were about even with the IS having a bit of an advantage post rebalance and before the IICs were released/available for c-bills.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 17 October 2016 - 09:36 AM.

[meteorol]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 09:31 AM, said:

Yeah, you're wrong. You won't see it because you're apparently so vociferously pro-clan, but you're wrong all the same.

Ever thought of the possibility that being "apparently vociferously pro-IS" (because that's how you sound) maybe affects your opinion aswell?

[Ryllen Kriel]

Since PGI nerfed jumpjets, then put a charge timer on gauss rifles to prevent poptarting it's funny to see meta monkeys still boating these weapon systems. Poptarts without the popping...can we all just agree to call them "Tarts" now?

[Dimento Graven]

meteorol, on 17 October 2016 - 09:39 AM, said:

Ever thought of the possibility that being &quot;apparently vociferously pro-IS&quot; (because that's how you sound) maybe affects your opinion aswell?

I'm vociferously pro Balance.

And when ONE side gets to enjoy the speed-fire power-survivability in most of its chassis, where the other side has to compromise ONE those to achieve some level of the other two, it's not balanced.

When one side is either giving up speed for a standard engine just so that they can pack a larger alpha, and not die when losing a side torso, OR, give up surviving side torso loss to load an XL just so they can have some speed with some fire power, ALL THE WHILE having to try and match those alphas and DPS monsters on the other side with LARGER and HEAVIER weapons and equipment, I can't see how ANY 'reasonable' person could possibly claim 'balance'

Yeah quirks wasn't the way to go, but honestly what other ways were there when you're stuck with a 12v12 match structure, and you're unwilling to shrink/grow one side's tech?

[LordKnightFandragon]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2016 - 05:31 AM, said:

1. Pug matches (as well as most FP matches) are still very different from 600+ meter pokes. Unless it is on Polar or something. Currently I am not worried. And I do not see that many NiGyrs. Especially since Huntsman is about to be released.

2. PPFLD is pain to get hit to be sure, and doubly frustrating from poptarts, but it still doesn't dominate dakka/lasers/missiles on the battlefields I mentioned. There is an exception: KDK-3 with dual Gauss and dual CERPPCs truly makes me wish ED is here already.

3. Finally, the prevalence of PPFLD builds on Clan mechs such as HBK-IICs, Timbies, and Kodiaks in the tournament had doubly affirmed the urgency of needing to balance base tech between factions. Without base tech balance, PGI simply cannot go forward without adding layers on layers of quirk bandages. No-brainer.

I fail to see how ED is going to stop PPC/Gauss Meta. The ED Recharges before the guns are even loaded. So, your Gauss Rifles spike 3 heat instead of 1 and your PPCs deal 20 instead of 15, no different then now. As for your target? Yeah, its missing w/e you hit.....

ED power recharges almost instantly, unless they seriously slowed it down, mine was back full before the shot registered...