206 replies to this topic

[Aresye]

Yeonne Greene, on 16 October 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

The other difference being you can't spread those 40-50 points that just smacked you.

Eh...it's not like you could spread a Black Knight's 58pt alpha in 0.7 seconds anyway.

[Ghogiel]

Aresye, on 17 October 2016 - 03:34 AM, said:

Eh...it's not like you could spread a Black Knight's 58pt alpha in 0.7 seconds anyway.

yeah you can't even be reactive to that as HSR and ping differences will often be about half that time, not even including the delay in dmg indication and paperdoll updating... But the shooter certainly can spread that dmg all over the shop.

[Dee Eight]

Ya know one of the reasons for the new "meta" is they gave the Night Gyr's the only blanket energy range quirks yet for clan mechs (a couple viper's got laser range quirks). Why wouldn't you then run ER-PPC's in the gyr variants with the 5% or 10% energy range boost ? Its an extra 40 or 81 meters of optimal range.

[Snowbluff]

Dee Eight, on 17 October 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

Ya know one of the reasons for the new "meta" is they gave the Night Gyr's the only blanket energy range quirks yet for clan mechs (a couple viper's got laser range quirks). Why wouldn't you then run ER-PPC's in the gyr variants with the 5% or 10% energy range boost ? Its an extra 40 or 81 meters of optimal range.

Well, if you try and fit in enough heat sinks you'll find that you'll have leftover tonnage. ERPPCs have enough range anyway. Most fighting doesn't happen out that far. I'm not sure why they have quirks anyway. :l

[0bsidion]

razenWing, on 16 October 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

In case you don't know the newest meta, it's PPC/Gauss. First explored during world, but finally popularized with the release of Night Gyr.

Personally, I am not fond of it. If you don't like hill and corner peaking before... prepare to have this... at 600m+ for a good 5 min portion of the game.

Now, not every game is like this, but it's insane to see how many people tweak their mech to try to do this.

See PGI? This is why you don't nerf weapons based on popularized meta. Cause life will always find a way.

Funny thing is, the PPC/Gauss combo as meta isn't new. That was actually a meta from several years ago. It got nerfed and fell out of favor. Then laser vomit became the meta, and now I guess we've come full circle back to PPC/Gauss again?

I don't know, I don't keep track. I don't find out until I see a certain build keep cropping up in the game and forums, so I'm often one of the last to know when a meta is emerging.

[Dimento Graven]

BattleBunny, on 16 October 2016 - 07:35 AM, said:

Using the PPC/Gauss combo requires some skill imho.

No, actually just requires the ability to install macro software.

The skilled players don't need to, and don't play this particular meta, that I've seen anyway.

Quote

And there is plenty of other viable stuff on the field at this time.

SRM brawling is great in group queue, Dakka works on most maps

Yeah, viable being a relative term, but pretty much if you're not boating daka, or missiles, or lasers, 'balanced' builds do seem to be a bit of a rarity on the field. Does that say something about their 'viability'...

Maybe.

Quote

and laser vomit is still good as well but no longer OP.

This game would be very well balanced if it wasnt for the Kodiak.

No, the OP crown has been firmly ensconced on the Clan bullet vomit builds. Back when the only chassis that could reasonably boat CUACs was the DWF, it was AT LEAST balanced by the DWF's lack of speed and maneuverability.

Unfortunately with some of the more recent Clan builds, PGI double downed on their cranium-ensconced-in-******, cash-cow-milking, design management and gave the Clans faster more maneuverable versions of CUAC builds, and we've got the extremely predictable scenario of whichever side MM graces with the most CUAC is 90% weighted to win.

Spray-n-pray for the win, baby.

Ultimately though, this game will never be balanced because MOST Clan 'mechs enjoy the Speed+Fire power+Survivability trifecta that most IS 'mechs will never be able to attain under the current game setup.

MOST Clan heavies can move faster and carry more fire power and absolutely have more survivability than MOST IS Assaults. This is fact due to the smaller XL engines that don't die to torso loss, plus free CASE in every slot, PLUS smaller endo and FF, PLUS, smaller lighter weapons that typically do more damage and have longer range than the IS equivalent.

[Queue Clan nay sayers who believe that because they've planted their virtual butt in a Clan 'mech they've been, granted by god himself, more skill than everyone else NOT in a Clan 'mech, arguing stupidly about this...]

[Mystere]

DaZur, on 16 October 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

"meta" this...

Damn! You just induced some nightmares!

meteorol, on 17 October 2016 - 02:54 AM, said:

It's not about time for "competitive scene", any anyone else for that matter, to catch up to you. In fact, they simply lapped you and are now again where you stayed the whole time.

Nah! That's an ADHD person's response.

Edited by Mystere, 17 October 2016 - 07:35 AM.

[Mystere]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

No, actually just requires the ability to install macro software.

A joystick with a dual-stage trigger is better.

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 17 October 2016 - 07:33 AM, said:

A joystick with a dual-stage trigger is better.

Holy crap, never thought of that. I bet it would be!

[Gas Guzzler]

Dee Eight, on 17 October 2016 - 04:41 AM, said:

Ya know one of the reasons for the new "meta" is they gave the Night Gyr's the only blanket energy range quirks yet for clan mechs (a couple viper's got laser range quirks). Why wouldn't you then run ER-PPC's in the gyr variants with the 5% or 10% energy range boost ? Its an extra 40 or 81 meters of optimal range.

Nobody in the comp scene would ever sacrifice hardpoint placement to get 5-10% range added to their ER PPCs... especially because the PPFLD Night Gyr that means something only has one ER PPC.

[Clownwarlord]

razenWing, on 16 October 2016 - 05:17 AM, said:

In case you don't know the newest meta, it's PPC/Gauss. First explored during world, but finally popularized with the release of Night Gyr.

Personally, I am not fond of it. If you don't like hill and corner peaking before... prepare to have this... at 600m+ for a good 5 min portion of the game.

Now, not every game is like this, but it's insane to see how many people tweak their mech to try to do this.

See PGI? This is why you don't nerf weapons based on popularized meta. Cause life will always find a way.

New? This isn't new this is old meta, back from when pop tart was about.

[Gas Guzzler]

I'd say the meta was new as of the April patch (new meaning it wasn't quite top tier before, but was after). It has just taken some time and many laser vomit whine threads (which fell out of dominance December of LAST year) before the masses have finally figured it out.

http://mwomercs.com/...d=1525#gameplay

[Clownwarlord]

Gauss and Erps would be better if the gauss charge up was removed ... which was put it to break up this meta a long time ago. Then Gauss was nerfed by having a longer recycle rate, and the erps were slowed down to be soft balls being lobbed over the plate.

But hey if you want to call it a new meta go ahead, but it really has been around for years.

[Y E O N N E]

Aresye, on 17 October 2016 - 03:34 AM, said:

Eh...it's not like you could spread a Black Knight's 58pt alpha in 0.7 seconds anyway.

Not against good players, sure. In QP, where most players have trouble holding any sort of duration, there is a notable difference when PPFLD is the "in" thing and every bumpkin is doing it.

If you ask me, I find the skill floor for PPFLD to be too low.

[Mawai]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2016 - 07:46 AM, said:

1. Not when those two weapons are on top of everything else in the PPFLD game. In addition to Clan tech being superior to IS tech. That has already been proven in the MWO Championship matches.

2. Balancing base tech doesn't necessarily mean PGI has to nerf Clan weapon/equipment BTW. I'd rather have them buff IS equipment and weapons instead.

Personally, I'd prefer if everyone dropped the entire personal attachment involved in balance decisions. "Aww ... they nerfed my <insert name here>. I'm not playing anymore." The point of buffing/nerfing (increasing/decreasing) effectiveness of specific systems is to make the game more balanced and MORE fun in the long term.

There are two reasons for changes ...
1) Improve game balance
2) Make small changes to shift the balance to avoid boredom of always seeing the same builds.

In an ideal world, most loadouts would be useful.

However, here is the conundrum.

Balance can be achieved by either increasing the effectiveness of underperforming systems or by decreasing the effectiveness of over-performing ones. Psychologically people like things to get better rather than worse. This means that buffs make people happier than nerfs.

However, if you buff weapons you reduce the time to kill ... meaning the game gets closer to an instant death FPS which I believe the general population of this game does not like.

So, if you want to buff weapons you need to also buff hit points of the targets so that everything gets buffed. Underperforming weapons are made relatively more effective while the increase in target hit points retains or even increases the time to kill. Nothing is directly nerfed and balance is served (Of course the over-performing weapons are now a bit less effective but at least they weren't nerfed).

Anyway, if PGI actually had anyone working on this game anymore then they would have at least one person spending a week every month (or one day a week) actually tweaking balance and testing it so that things could be updated every month. Given than most balance tweaks are simply XML edits ... it really makes no sense for PGI not to do this unless they either don't care or simply have no one working on the game.

[Mystere]

Mawai, on 17 October 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

Personally, I'd prefer if everyone dropped the entire personal attachment involved in balance decisions. "Aww ... they nerfed my <insert name here>. I'm not playing anymore." The point of buffing/nerfing (increasing/decreasing) effectiveness of specific systems is to make the game more balanced and MORE fun in the long term.

There are two reasons for changes ...
1) Improve game balance
2) Make small changes to shift the balance to avoid boredom of always seeing the same builds.

I'd rather have a game focused on game modes that make balance discussions moot.

Of course if all you've got is a "Theme Park" arena shooter ...

Edited by Mystere, 17 October 2016 - 08:24 AM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 October 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

there is a notable difference when PPFLD is the "in" thing and every bumpkin is doing it.

Depends on the build, if they are doing Gauss/ERPPC then there is a good chance they will be spreading damage between the Gauss and ERPPCs, even I spread damage with Gauss/ERPPC shots thanks to the difference in velocity.

[Gas Guzzler]

Yeonne Greene, on 17 October 2016 - 08:09 AM, said:

Not against good players, sure. In QP, where most players have trouble holding any sort of duration, there is a notable difference when PPFLD is the "in" thing and every bumpkin is doing it.

If you ask me, I find the skill floor for PPFLD to be too low.

But... people miss. Or they hit the wrong component. It doesn't bother me though... I think the skill floor is higher than lasers. I think the Kodiak makes it a bit too easy with those beautiful shoulder hardpoints and its relative maneuverability for a 100 tonner (XL390 works out nicely IIRC).

[Dimento Graven]

Mystere, on 17 October 2016 - 08:19 AM, said:

I'd rather have a game focused on game modes that make balance discussions moot.

I'm not sure I can agree with this stance.

I can't see how ANY particular 'game mode' is going to be able to 'fix' the situation where one half of the available 'mechs get to enjoy the speed-fire power-survivability trifecta, and the other half has to, AT BEST, compromise ONE of the trifecta to be able to have two out of the three.

Balance is horked.

Power draw is probably going to be DOA (the real solution being HEAT AFFECTS, whole other thread on that one).

So one side will remain having its, in general, significant edge over the other.

It's not coincidental that the already dwindling FP population is now practically extinct since the inception of the last few Clan 'mechs which have double down on the afore mentioned trifecta of speed-fire power-survivability...

Edited by Dimento Graven, 17 October 2016 - 08:27 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dimento Graven, on 17 October 2016 - 08:25 AM, said:

It's not coincidental that the already dwindling FP population is now practically extinct since the inception of the last few Clan 'mechs which have double down on the aforementioned trifecta of speed-fire power-survivability...

Oh I assure you it is coincidental. And the Night Gyr doesn't really have speed. Its slower than most IS heavies. Hell, its slower than the Dakkahammer, and its CT is pretty easy to hit, not really that survivable.