206 replies to this topic

[razenWing]

In case you don't know the newest meta, it's PPC/Gauss. First explored during world, but finally popularized with the release of Night Gyr.

Personally, I am not fond of it. If you don't like hill and corner peaking before... prepare to have this... at 600m+ for a good 5 min portion of the game.

Now, not every game is like this, but it's insane to see how many people tweak their mech to try to do this.

See PGI? This is why you don't nerf weapons based on popularized meta. Cause life will always find a way.

[Tristan Winter]

You forgot the part where you tell them how they should balance the game, to prevent the meta from swinging back and forth between brawling and sniping.

PS: Still waiting for you to explain those Narc rewards to me, remember? The Narc damage rewards that aren't based on kills?

[El Bandito]

1. Pug matches (as well as most FP matches) are still very different from 600+ meter pokes. Unless it is on Polar or something. Currently I am not worried. And I do not see that many NiGyrs. Especially since Huntsman is about to be released.

2. PPFLD is pain to get hit to be sure, and doubly frustrating from poptarts, but it still doesn't dominate dakka/lasers/missiles on the battlefields I mentioned. There is an exception: KDK-3 with dual Gauss and dual CERPPCs truly makes me wish ED is here already.

3. Finally, the prevalence of PPFLD builds on Clan mechs such as HBK-IICs, Timbies, and Kodiaks in the tournament had doubly affirmed the urgency of needing to balance base tech between factions. Without base tech balance, PGI simply cannot go forward without adding layers on layers of quirk bandages. No-brainer.

Edited by El Bandito, 16 October 2016 - 05:40 AM.

[razenWing]

Tristan Winter, on 16 October 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

You forgot the part where you tell them how they should balance the game, to prevent the meta from swinging back and forth between brawling and sniping.

PS: Still waiting for you to explain those Narc rewards to me, remember? The Narc damage rewards that aren't based on kills?

Title: "what you think of" meaning, what is your opinion
Side Note: "PGI should just leave it alone"

Which I believe answers your question. Also, I have no freaking idea what the f you are talking about. Do I know you?

[Tristan Winter]

razenWing, on 16 October 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

Title: "what you think of" meaning, what is your opinion
Side Note: "PGI should just leave it alone"

Leaving things alone is what they did when poptarts reigned supreme for aeons and everyone turned every mech into PPC carriers. Even Ravens, Catapults and Centurions became PPC carriers for a while, when PGI decided to leave things alone and stop trying to fight the meta. The game became stagnant and boring. Most of the people I played with at the time disappeared from the game.

The argument that "life finds a way" and that a new meta will always appear, or that a new mech will always become the next OP mech even if you nerf the current OP mechs, is the most ignorant argument that keeps appearing on this forum. The fact that the meta will change back and forth as a result of balancing is not a good argument for why you shouldn't buff or nerf certain elements in the game.

razenWing, on 16 October 2016 - 05:33 AM, said:

Which I believe answers your question. Also, I have no freaking idea what the f you are talking about. Do I know you?

We had a discussion in another thread where you explained that players get NARC rewards based on damage, and I asked you for proof, but you never responded.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 16 October 2016 - 07:54 AM.

[Appogee]

El Bandito, on 16 October 2016 - 05:31 AM, said:

Pug matches (as well as most FP matches) are still very different from 600+ meter pokes. Unless it is on Polar or something. Currently I am not worried.

I'm seeing a couple of guys on my team doing this, every match, hanging back and poking. Often, good players, too.

They are usually the last to die. But I feel like they sometimes cause the team to lose because they leave the rest of the team who are brawling in an imbalanced frontline battle.

Ideally, we'd be playing a game where different playstyles, from sniping to brawling and in-between, are all viable. But while there are certain very powerful Mechs with high-mounted hardpoints able to deliver massive PPFLD while staying 90% behind cover, it's no wonder people are adopting the poking gameplay style.

Edited by Appogee, 16 October 2016 - 05:53 AM.

[razenWing]

Tristan Winter, on 16 October 2016 - 05:47 AM, said:

Leaving things alone is what they did when poptarts reigned supreme for aeons and everyone turned every mech into PPC carriers. Even Ravens, Catapults and Centurions became PPC carriers for a while, when PGI decided to leave things alone and stop trying to fight the meta. The game became stagnant and boring. Most of the people I played with at the time disappeared from the game.

The argument that "life finds a way" and that a new meta will always appear, or that a new mech will always become the next OP mech even if you nerf the current OP mechs, is the most ignorant argument that keeps appearing on this forum. The fact that the meta will change back and forth as a result of balancing is not a good argument for why you should buff or nerf certain elements in the game.


We had a discussion in another thread where you explained that players get NARC rewards based on damage, and I asked you for proof, but you never responded.

You are not seriously comparing poptarting to laser boating, ac boating, srm boating, and ppc/gauss boating right? You just compared a mechanics fix to play style. So, I have no idea how to respond to your response to my apparent "ignorance." But sure, whatever.

As for NARC, again, you brought up something that you think it's important, but to me... it's a random Tuesday. So going without context, I am going to say that:

http://mwo.gamepedia.com/NARC_Beacon

Though I am fairly sure that damages beyond just killing blow counts as point reward, because I use NARC every other blue moon, I can't say for sure. So you maybe right, happy? (And this is assuming that I said narc dmg from tracking gives bonus beyond the killing blow, right?)

Edited by razenWing, 16 October 2016 - 06:04 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Whatever. I play lore builds when I can, or just do whatever needs to be done to fill hard points. Meta is for meta players. For the rest of us it is something merely to aspire to, or ignore, since many simply lack the skills to play to the full potential anyway.

[Appogee]

The most fun I have in MWO these days is being a flanking Light.

High risk, lower reward than simply taking a Kodiak.

But fun.

[Snowbluff]

Gauss + Peepers has been meta as long as I've been playing. All of the complaints and nerfs requests lately will probably be fixed with stuff they've already announced.

And Bandito, clans literally only have 2 weapons that can PPFLD. Leave 'em alone.

[Appogee]

Come to think of it, the game really is a train wreck of balance issues at the moment, isn't it.

You play on Canyon, and Gauss/PPC Kodiaks will line up below the lip of the canyon, 90% in cover, just high enough to fire all their PPFLD weapons at 700m or more at anyone not fully in cover.

Meantime, there will be a 6xSRM6 Jenner IIc and an Arctic Cheetahs approaching from behind, delivering one shot kills into the backs of any Assaults too slow to keep up with the NAScar.

Add to all that the LRM gazillion guys who are standing behind the hill 800m from battle, farming remote locks.

Personally, I think I need to just stop buying and leveling Mechs.

[Ghogiel]

Appogee, on 16 October 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

[/font]I'm seeing a couple of guys on my team doing this, every match, hanging back and poking. Often, good players, too.

They are usually the last to die. But I feel like they sometimes cause the team to lose because they leave the rest of the team who are brawling in an imbalanced frontline battle.

Bad players choosing to force a fight alone on an imbalanced front line. They just choose not to use the assets on the field and want to tard ridge a 2nd time right after peeking over the ridge 5 secs ago and losing 30% of thier armor. No way the overwatch can respond to that. Leroy never fights where the guy in the back is able to contribute.

[Tristan Winter]

razenWing, on 16 October 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

You are not seriously comparing poptarting to laser boating, ac boating, srm boating, and ppc/gauss boating right? You just compared a mechanics fix to play style. So, I have no idea how to respond to your response to my apparent "ignorance." But sure, whatever.

It wasn't only about poptarting. Like I said, people were even sticking PPCs on Centurions, and the gauss+ppc combo and the AC10+ppc combo wasn't restricted to poptarts. People stuck PPCs on everything in 2013 / 2014.

It's just that the meta is going to switch back and forth between sniping and brawling over time, as long as PGI tries to balance the game. And in periods when sniping is more popular, the go-to weapons are usually PPC and gauss, because ghost heat makes it difficult to boat either ppcs or large lasers.

The only way to prevent this cycle is to stop balancing the game. Which is obviously absurd.

razenWing, on 16 October 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

Though I am fairly sure that damages beyond just killing blow counts as point reward, because I use NARC every other blue moon, I can't say for sure. So you maybe right, happy? (And this is assuming that I said narc dmg from tracking gives bonus beyond the killing blow, right?)

Yep, that's what I figured.

[Felbombling]

Dude, they have zero chance of balance when they have a Mech Lab that allows players to shoehorn engines in to the half-ton, or strip one arm entirely of armour to stuff an extra weapon, heat sink or ton of ammo. Just embrace the horror, because no amount of weapon tweaking will change that.

[Juodas Varnas]

To be honest? I couldn't care less about the meta.

I never chased meta builds myself and never will...
Most of my mechs are MOSTLY stock builds, with minor changes (added endo+DHS, extra tonnage used for more armor and bigger engine, changing out LRMs for SRMs, etc).

[Appogee]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 06:15 AM, said:

Bad players choosing to force a fight alone on an imbalanced front line. They just choose not to use the assets on the field and want to tard ridge a 2nd time right after peeking over the ridge 5 secs ago and losing 30% of thier armor. No way the overwatch can respond to that. Leroy never fights where the guy in the back is able to contribute.

Everytime I mention "people hiding", someone - in this case, you - will immediately assume that "if they're not hiding, they must be Leeroying".

But no. Believe it or not, there is a third way! A smart, intelligent, effective way to win matches! It happens when people on a team are sensibly aggressive, use cover, move together, keep the pressure on the enemy, flank, reposition.

These are not "bad players choosing to fight alone", they are "good players trying to carry the various varieties of under-contributing potatoes (Leeroy, Snipa, "LRM support here please hold locks") the matchmaker stuck them with.

In a PUG match, those good intelligent balanced players are much more likely to create a win than someone sitting behind the same rock all match with 80t of unused armor making occasional sniping shots as the rest of the team gets overwhelmed by the enemy team... who then complains that the battle didn't happen in their range or line of sight.

Edited by Appogee, 16 October 2016 - 07:18 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Appogee, on 16 October 2016 - 07:09 AM, said:

Everytime I mention "people hiding", someone - in this case, you - will immediately assume that "if you're not hiding, you must be Leeroying".

But no, believe it or not, there is a third way. What I am advocating is that people be sensibly aggressive, use cover, keep the pressure on the enemy, flank and reposition.

These are not "bad players choosing to fight alone", they are "good players trying to carry the various varieties of under-contributing potatoes (Leeroy, Snipa, "LRM support here please hold locks") they got stuck with.

In a PUG match, those good players are much more likely to create a win than someone sitting behind the same rock all match with 80t of unused armor making occasional sniping shots as the rest of the team gets overwhelmed by the enemy team.

You said often good players are in the back. If this is pugs there are rarely ever more than one good players on a side, so that leaves the potatoes dieing fast
.

[Appogee]

Ghogiel, on 16 October 2016 - 07:17 AM, said:

You said often good players are in the back. If this is pugs there are rarely ever more than one good players on a side, so that leaves the potatoes dieing fast.

By 'good players' i meant 'players who I know who have good personal skills'.

I think they're doing the Gauss/PPC thing at the back because Group Play rewards that style of play (see the regional championship finals). Or maybe they are just practicing their aim or farming CBills, and don't care whether the PUG team wins or loses.

I can't tell.

Thinking about it some more ... maybe they are the smart ones. They've worked out that PUG matches will never be more than a random clusterfudge, there are so many potatoes that you can't carry them all, so you may as well hang back with a high alpha, pick off a couple of easy kills, and call it a day.

Maybe 'good matches' just aren't possible in the PUG queue now, because every match is essentially all tiers mixed in together and very few people even trying to win, let alone capable of it.

Edited by Appogee, 16 October 2016 - 07:24 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Appogee, on 16 October 2016 - 07:22 AM, said:

By 'good players' i meant 'players who I know who have good personal skills'.

I think they're doing the Gauss/PPC thing at the back because Group Play rewards that style of play (see the regional championship finals). Or maybe they are just practicing their aim or farming CBills, and don't care whether the PUG team wins or loses.

I can't tell.

Thinking about it some more ... maybe they are the smart ones. They've worked out that PUG matches will never be more than a random clusterfudge, there are so many potatoes that you can't carry them all, so you may as well hang back with a high alpha, pick off a couple of easy kills, and call it a day.

I think you will find that good players aren't just picking off a target here and there. They are doing significant dmg and have a high W/L and that is what makes them good.

[BattleBunny]

Using the PPC/Gauss combo requires some skill imho. And there is plenty of other viable stuff on the field at this time. SRM brawling is great in group queue, Dakka works on most maps and laser vomit is still good as well but no longer OP.

This game would be very well balanced if it wasnt for the Kodiak.