257 replies to this topic

[Chados]

A lot of people don't like ED because it is new and we are used to the old ways. From the most long-term players you see the same sentiments about the old jump jet nerfs.

It's going to force people who are very comfortable with how they do things and who instinctively exploit the old system into re-learning the game. But in the end the players will re-skill. Those who have high twitch skills will rule as always in the end, I think. The changes will favor PPCs and gauss rifles so that will be the thing even more going forward-more sniping. Missiles of all types will be less effective, particularly SRMs. And what the last PTS did to IS LL and LPL is, I agree, the wrong direction as those weapons in the past were the equalizer for less-effective IS mechs. I think that another quirk pass is going to be necessary for IS mechs dependent on energy weapons if PTS5 were ever to be implemented as tested.

I don't think PTS5 reins in the Kodiak-3. Oddly, I lately have seen several mixed build KDK-3s on the field and that raised my eyebrows a little. I wish they'd bring back the old Artemis bonuses for LRMs and not hit them so hard with heat penalties. It won't hurt my builds as I tend to rely on ALRM15s and I don't run more than 30-40 tubes. But anyone boating just about anything is going to feel the pinch with PTS5, and perhaps that is intended.

[Red Shrike]

When I tried ED on the PTS, I couldn't understand any of it.
So I'll wait until I've played 10 matches on the live server with ED before I decide whether or not it's the end of the world as we know it.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Chados, on 23 October 2016 - 04:00 AM, said:

A lot of people don't like ED because it is new and we are used to the old ways. From the most long-term players you see the same sentiments about the old jump jet nerfs.

It's going to force people who are very comfortable with how they do things and who instinctively exploit the old system into re-learning the game. But in the end the players will re-skill. Those who have high twitch skills will rule as always in the end, I think. The changes will favor PPCs and gauss rifles so that will be the thing even more going forward-more sniping. Missiles of all types will be less effective, particularly SRMs. And what the last PTS did to IS LL and LPL is, I agree, the wrong direction as those weapons in the past were the equalizer for less-effective IS mechs. I think that another quirk pass is going to be necessary for IS mechs dependent on energy weapons if PTS5 were ever to be implemented as tested.

I don't think PTS5 reins in the Kodiak-3. Oddly, I lately have seen several mixed build KDK-3s on the field and that raised my eyebrows a little. I wish they'd bring back the old Artemis bonuses for LRMs and not hit them so hard with heat penalties. It won't hurt my builds as I tend to rely on ALRM15s and I don't run more than 30-40 tubes. But anyone boating just about anything is going to feel the pinch with PTS5, and perhaps that is intended.

anything that Slows that rate of fire really is good in my book. Having big mechs with huge weapons is not a bad thing by any means. An assault should still feel that way. With that being said, we all know what the problem is whether some people want to admit it or not.

[Red Shrike]

Red Shrike, on 23 October 2016 - 04:01 AM, said:

When I tried ED on the PTS, I couldn't understand any of it.
So I'll wait until I've played 10 matches on the live server with ED before I decide whether or not it's the end of the world as we know it.

That being said, we should've had a heatscale with exponentially increasing penalties in the first place. And none of that increase in heat cap.

[martian]

Hunka Junk, on 23 October 2016 - 03:30 AM, said:

As an aside, will you be paying the $50 to join the HBS Beta?

Part of me wants to. The other part of me does not pay to be part of betas.

1) The game itself will cost about $40 when released the next year, but you are going to get a lot of stuff for your money.
2) Very nice Desktops of six factions.


3) Nice concept art.
4) Soundtrack. MechWarrior and MechCommander have always had good soundtracks, whether composed by Duane Decker or Jeehun Hwang.


5) BattleTech novel by Michael Stackpole.
6) Unique geometry and exclusive paint job for your Atlas.
7) And of course that Beta access.
8) Plus Beta access to Multiplayer.


But of course, it's your decision.

[Sjorpha]

As a person who supposedly cares about logic and facts, you should know that the burden of proof is on the positive claim or proponent of a specific change. In other words it is up to you/pgi/whoever to convince other people that energy draw is a good change, it isn't up to anyone else to prove it isn't.

Scepticism is the only logical default to any proposition, necessarily so because there is no such thing as negative proof. Accepting this principle is the only way to rationalize negative claims, such as "raindeers can't fly" or "my father isn't a grapefruit", which is why the negative default is universally accepted as foundational to both logic and science.

Your starting post seems to violates this basic principle, which would betray either ignorance or dishonesty.

Another problem is the equating of "plugging holes" with "being a good idea", which is a completely false equivalency. It's entirely possible for energy draw to plug those holes and still have more negative consequences than positive.

The "plugging holes" argument is problematic in another way too, those "holes" only exist as a consequence of another very controversial system, they are holes in the ghost heat system, not in the basic heat system itself.

Energy draw is a replacement to ghost heat, it is one convoluted penalty system replacing another.

But why do we need a special system penalizing alphas in the first place? It seems to me that the Need for these systems stem from a far too forgiving heat system, if the heat was less forgiving, for example if the heat capacity was cut in half and had incrementally worse consequences for being hot, then we wouldn't need a separate system to penalize alphas at all.

Edited by Sjorpha, 23 October 2016 - 04:39 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sjorpha, on 23 October 2016 - 04:17 AM, said:

As a person who supposedly cares about logic and facts, you should know that the burden of proof is on the positive claim or proponent of a specific change. In other words it is up to you/pgi/whoever to convince other people that energy draw is a good change, it isn't up to anyone else to prove it isn't.

Scepticism is the only logical default to any proposition, necessarily so because there is no such thing as negative proof. Accepting this principle is the only way to rationalize negative claims, such as "raindeers can't fly" or "my father isn't a grapefruit", which is why the negative default is universally accepted as foundational to both logic and science.

Your starting post seems to violates this basic principle, which would betray either ignorance or dishonesty.

Another problem is the equating of "plugging holes" with "being a good idea", which is a completely false equivalency. It's entirely possible for energy draw to plug those holes and still have more negative consequences than positive.

sure give me a qoute and address what I said that was intellectual dishonest.

First off. "plugging holes" just means that it does what the first system missed. Its just a fact that using an AC/20 and 4 meds on the live server give no penalty, but on the PTS it does. So that is empirically demonstrable.

you talking to someone who is adept at formal logic, so you need to be more specific about which error in logic did I demonstrate.

you are also talking about proving negatives, which I dont see why that is relevant. I did not make any appeals to prove negative claims. No matter how many times deathlike likes the post doesn't mean it's even remotely accurate.

making appeals to skepticism means I don't accept anything until the evidence comes. So I do not believe X claim until it has met it's burden of proof. That is pretty much what I said in my opening post.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 04:42 AM.

[Lykaon]

BLOOD WOLF, on 22 October 2016 - 06:10 PM, said:

what are the real problems? can you demonstrate why it doesn't?

Unless it's actually about the flaws in GH and the loopholes it allowed, then you are not actually addressing ED

Neither ghost heat or Energy Draw actually address the underlaying issues with MWo's heat mechanics.

Essentially battlemechs are spamming away at 100% damage output while retaining 100% accuracy and 100% mobility until you overheat.

Then you get 100% shut off. There are no degrees of overheating it's every thing's fine and mech OFF!

There is zero incentive to not build a mech for alpha spamming,zero incentive to use mixed loadouts and every reason to boat the same guns.

In order to make heat managment meaningfull heat build up must have meaningfull effects on mech performance.

Looking back on the source materiel (Battletech) mechs that exceeded their cooling abilities began to experience degraded performance.

In MWo heat is only meaningful when it shuts you down or blows you up from overrides excess heat does NOTHING but that and has zero impact until it has ALL the IMPACT.

Energy Draw is just another bandaid covering a shallow heat mechanic just like ghost heat was.

[Appogee]

[BLOOD WOLF]

Lykaon, on 23 October 2016 - 04:40 AM, said:

Neither ghost heat or Energy Draw actually address the underlaying issues with MWo's heat mechanics.

Essentially battlemechs are spamming away at 100% damage output while retaining 100% accuracy and 100% mobility until you overheat.

Then you get 100% shut off. There are no degrees of overheating it's every thing's fine and mech OFF!

There is zero incentive to not build a mech for alpha spamming,zero incentive to use mixed loadouts and every reason to boat the same guns.

In order to make heat managment meaningfull heat build up must have meaningfull effects on mech performance.

Looking back on the source materiel (Battletech) mechs that exceeded their cooling abilities began to experience degraded performance.

In MWo heat is only meaningful when it shuts you down or blows you up from overrides excess heat does NOTHING but that and has zero impact until it has ALL the IMPACT.

Energy Draw is just another bandaid covering a shallow heat mechanic just like ghost heat was.

I agree they need to add features such as specific penalties for exceeding certain threshold. I wont agree that ED is a band-aid, because you can not have no penalty system. Even with a low heat cap, I do not think it's possible. Then again that is what the PTS is for.

Appogee, on 23 October 2016 - 04:43 AM, said:

who said that?

[Sjorpha]

You opened the the thread by demanding evidence that ED doesn't plug all the holes in ghost heat, that is specifically demanding other people to prove a negative, which is of course impossible.

Your claim that you are "adept at formal logic" isn't very impressive, you're not living up to it by any measure.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sjorpha, on 23 October 2016 - 04:46 AM, said:

You opened the the thread by demanding evidence that ED doesn't plug all the holes in ghost heat, that is specifically demanding other people to prove a negative, which is of course impossible.

Your claim that you are "adept at formal logic" isn't very impressive, you're not living up to it by any measure.

I didn't ask people to prove a negative, I do not think you know what that means, withought scrambling around the internet.
A negative claim is a colloquialism for an affirmative claim that asserts the non-existence or exclusion of something

so this isn't about my topic, or thread. Its really about me.

I am not asking people to demonstrate negatives, I am asking for a valid source of demonstrable evidence. I know its too much to ask on a game forum, but some people around here can do that, so its worth asking.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 04:59 AM.

[Eirik Eriksson]

I´m normally not afraid of changes. But after the cw update this year, which basically through myself and quite a big share of the population there, out of the game - I will admit that I am a bit afraid. Or maybe more of a shiver running down my spine thinking about this. I don´t play very often anymore but I still enjoy the times I do. I just hope any major changes that is done to the game mechanics will be acceptable to the community and that any flaws are quickly acted upon by the game developers.

Edited by Slow Speed, 23 October 2016 - 05:00 AM.

[FupDup]

This thread's OP is losing the war.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Slow Speed, on 23 October 2016 - 04:57 AM, said:

I´m normally not afraid of changes. But after the cw update this year, which basically through myself and quite a big share of the population there, out of the game - I will admit that I am a bit afraid. Or maybe more of a shiver running down my spine thinking about this. I don´t play very often anymore but I still enjoy the times I do. I just hope any major changes that is done to the game mechanics will be acceptable to the community and that any flaws are quickly acted upon by the game developers.

I probably should ignore the other post from deathlike and his lollipop squad and just reply to these post. I believe that the players who tested the system and the input gained from the test was analyzed and changes where made to perfect the flaws. Although I know there can never be a perfect system. I also believe that when it goes live, most people will just keep on playing and adapt. I wonder about the number of people who actually care.

I suggest you also take a look at the conversations about ED from other players. as my threads tend to get trolled and derailed pretty fast, by the merry band of 10

[Tordin]

ED might go the way of the dodos. Because l33t players afraid of their comfort zone in mass alphas and having their favorable weapons umbrellad under all the other "filthy" weapons they dont use. Prejudice and mass mobbing against a system that arent even "live" yet and might aswell solve the whole ordeal is just pathetic.

No bring on the ED. Im gonna be open about it at least.
Though I do agree on the past feature of information warfares "laser-lockon" to bit of a stretch, lore breaking too?? And it sure made the laser vomit mobs angry and scared PGI to just drop the whole idea. Good job! Hope you are satisfied scared kittens

We humans that are so supposed to adapt to anything, are afraid of change in natue in a little game called MWO with a new feature.....

Yeonne Greene, on 22 October 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

ED is winning because it is PGI's project and they have decided that they don't want to waste the effort just yet. Nothing more, nothing less.

You actually made it all stated so much clearer than I did. You are one of the few, if not the only one that actually made the most sense here, kudos!

Edited by Tordin, 23 October 2016 - 05:12 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Tordin, on 23 October 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

ED might go the way of the dodos. Because l33t players afraid of their comfort zone in mass alphas and having their favorable weapons umbrellad under all the other "filthy" weapons they dont use. Prejudice and mass mobbing against a system that arent even "live" yet and might aswell solve the whole ordeal is just pathetic.

No bring on the ED. Im gonna be open about it at least.
Though I do agree on the past feature of information warfares "laser-lockon" to bit of a stretch, lore breaking too?? And it sure made the laser vomit mobs angry and scared PGI to just drop the whole idea. Good job! Hope you are satisfied scared kittens

We humans that are so supposed to adapt to anything, are afraid of change in natue in a little game called MWO with a new feature.....

For the record I wasn't against laser lock, would have been interesting, leave it to some people and the game would never change.

FupDup, on 23 October 2016 - 05:05 AM, said:

This thread's OP is losing the war.

yea, threads that ask for evidence don't go far on these forums. Everyone seems to want to stay in conjecture land.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 23 October 2016 - 05:30 AM.

[Deathlike]

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 05:06 AM, said:

I probably should ignore the other post from deathlike and his lollipop squad and just reply to these post. I believe that the players who tested the system and the input gained from the test was analyzed and changes where made to perfect the flaws. Although I know there can never be a perfect system. I also believe that when it goes live, most people will just keep on playing and adapt. I wonder about the number of people who actually care.

I suggest you also take a look at the conversations about ED from other players. as my threads tend to get trolled and derailed pretty fast, by the merry band of 10

Yes, please ignore me. It would do everyone a favor.... except you won't or can't.

I'm not the one creating popup threads when I disagree with people. I'm not the one creating the mass litany of threads involving the MM, FW, the minimap, Steam, balance, etc.... I'm just here to say a few things here and there.

Ignorance is bliss. If only some people would take their own words to heart...

[Imperius]

I'd tell you to go PrtScn some proof but we all know how that went...

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3650151

[Deathlike]

Imperius, on 23 October 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

I'd tell you to go PrtScn some proof but we all know how that went...

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__3650151

Sad days.