257 replies to this topic

[Cementi]

Ace Selin, on 23 October 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

Its pretty clear most players dont want ED, but still PGI persists, wasted time and energy

Actually it is pretty clear that many players feel massive alpha strikes are a problem. However the playerbase tends to disagree with how it should be dealt with. Some want ED, some want a proper heat scale, others want pin point convergance removed.

The problem is PGI decided to go with heat capacity being increased by heat sinks, then they elected to forgo all heat penalties until shut down. When they started having a problem with large alpha strikes instead of admitting they made a mistake they added in ghost heat. Now like management at any company they refuse to address the mistake and contiune trying to find ways to make to adjust the mistake into something that will work.

Bottom line is every TTK/boating issue MWO has goes all the way back to the decision to go high capacity and no heat penalties.

Now they are testing ED and I am for it. Not because I think it is the best solution but because I feel it is the only solution they will try and if tweaked correctly I can see it working. I personally would like to see it affect something other than heat which would sort of be like having a heat scale with penalties.

I also feel ED recharges far to fast to be meaningful. We have to accept that some players like alpha warrior and I have no problem with them being able to unleash a huge alpha.....I just think that there needs to be something in place so that they cannot immediately do it again. If they have a secondary weapon group I am fine with that so I think what we need is something other than more heat than normal. We need penalties other than more heat. Since they will not do a heat scale maybe we can get them to do ED with the penalty being longer cooldown instead of more heat.

That would would impact high and low heat weapons equally and would more readily allow bracket fire builds to function while still allowing a large alpha strike for those that like that.

[Gaden Phoenix]

Ace Selin, on 23 October 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

Its pretty clear most players dont want ED, but still PGI persists, wasted time and energy

To explain that the most vocal players on a forum, especially on specific topic does not constitute a majority will take too long.

It just proves the vocal minority does not want ED. While ED is another bandage ghost heat system, I feel the current Ghost Heat system cannot be worst.

Purpose of Ghost heat was to stop boating and thus huge alphas, which people found away around via different weapons. ED will be a more fair anti-alpha mechanics.

Personally, I want better heal scaling like Col Jaime Wolf suggests. But will take ED as the lesser of 2 evils.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 23 October 2016 - 10:51 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gaden Phoenix, on 23 October 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

To explain that the most vocal players on a forum, especially on specific topic does not constitute a majority will take too long.

It just proves the vocal minority does not want ED. While ED is another bandage ghost heat system, I feel the current Ghost Heat system cannot be worst.

Purpose of Ghost heat was to stop boating and thus huge alphas, which people found away around via different weapons. ED will be a more fair anti-alpha mechanics.

What is fair about it? Or rather what is unfair about ghost heat? There is nothing unfair about trading long range DPS for short range alpha power by stacking medium lasers on top of larges. That is a tradeoff, and lately that tradeoff has not really been worth it... those mid range alpha builds have fallen by the wayside due to more recent balance adjustments. Its almost like balancing weapons and mechs can help to alleviate the large alphas being thrown around... Also, ED encourages boating, as it takes away the reason for doing things like mixing lasers with auto cannons.

Over 400 people have voted now, that's more than just a vocal minority.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 October 2016 - 10:54 PM.

[RestosIII]

Gaden Phoenix, on 23 October 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

To explain that the most vocal players on a forum, especially on specific topic does not constitute a majority will take too long.

It just proves the vocal minority does not want ED. While ED is another bandage ghost heat system, I feel the current Ghost Heat system cannot be worst.

Purpose of Ghost heat was to stop boating and thus huge alphas, which people found away around via different weapons. ED will be a more fair anti-alpha mechanics.

Personally, I want better heal scaling like Col Jaime Wolf suggests. But will take ED as the lesser of 2 evils.

Problem with the "vocal minority" argument. This is a very niche game, with a dwindling playerbase. The "vocal minority" you're talking about are the few people still playing and/or giving PGI money. The "silent majority" at this point are people that notice the game on steam, play for a week, then quit. If PGI goes with something that kills off what good will it has left with the people that care enough to post on the forums... well, let's just say PGI would be committing financial suicide. And I know a good deal of people that WILL finally give up on the game if ED is released.

[Gaden Phoenix]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 October 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

What is fair about it? Or rather what is unfair about ghost heat? There is nothing unfair about trading long range DPS for short range alpha power by stacking medium lasers on top of larges. That is a tradeoff, and lately that tradeoff has not really been worth it... those mid range alpha builds have fallen by the wayside due to more recent balance adjustments. Its almost like balancing weapons and mechs can help to alleviate the large alphas being thrown around... Also, ED encourages boating, as it takes away the reason for doing things like mixing lasers with auto cannons.

Over 400 people have voted now, that's more than just a vocal minority.

Firstly I have nothing against boating. If you do not like boating, just use different weapons. I have issue with boating 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPC or 6ML and 2 PLL to bypass ghost heat. Which is not affected by ghost heat now, while 7ML and, 1PLL is.

Secondly even if you take the concurrent users on steam at peak of 1848. 400 people who voted is only 20+%. That is still not a majority.

I have no issue with people not wanting ED. But statements like majority wants this or that are very misleading. Unless you have concrete proof, best you can say is a alot of the old guard on the forums that keep this game alive, do not want ED.

Edited by Gaden Phoenix, 23 October 2016 - 11:04 PM.

[Karl Streiger]

Gaden Phoenix, on 23 October 2016 - 10:50 PM, said:

To explain that the most vocal players on a forum, especially on specific topic does not constitute a majority will take too long.

It just proves the vocal minority does not want ED. While ED is another bandage ghost heat system, I feel the current Ghost Heat system cannot be worst.

Purpose of Ghost heat was to stop boating and thus huge alphas, which people found away around via different weapons. ED will be a more fair anti-alpha mechanics.

Personally, I want better heal scaling like Col Jaime Wolf suggests. But will take ED as the lesser of 2 evils.

When I read how they wanted to develop ED with PTS 1 i thought well at least this make some sense.
It is a better system compared to GH because it was simpler to understand - 4 categories - 4 values to calculate the outcome plus a visual representation ingame.
I said was because with PTS 2 they started again to create single values for single weapon systems.
This is not helpful it will cause inconsistency - maybe not as worse as ghost heat but they remain.

The system doesn't take into account that damage/range has already a ingame parameter called tonnage/heat

And again ED is completely ignorant to the fact that the damage of 4 AC2s that hit the same region is as bad for the used game design as the damage dealt by a 4 AC10s to a single region

The problem is - that I don't think that 99% of those that read the last sentence understand what I said.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 24 October 2016 - 12:48 AM.

[RestosIII]

Guys, I just thought of something horrible. What if PGI's MechCon announcement is SOLELY that they are adding ED as-is? With their track record, this is disturbingly possible.

[Battlemaster56]

RestosIII, on 23 October 2016 - 10:27 PM, said:

'sticking waiting for LBX/SRM ammo switching and ATMs'

They know they can hire some guys to fix the problem but they refuse to letting pride and ego blind rather than admitting that thy need people help fix the problems in the game.

And worse they to stubborn to even check their game fourms to see any nice ideas or read any criticism since their 1.5 cm epeen can't handle what people say.

[lazytopaz]

well if only PGI made any steps toward giving players incentive to do anything else above dealing a lot of dmg and racking a lot of kill secures.

Where's my AMS/support bonus cbills for covering bigger guys. Why scouting is so under rewarded? Why securing objectives gives so little. The list goes on.

Only thing that is rewarded in this game is dealing damage and killing. So ppl will always boat and try to min max their alpha (and number of times they can alpha) before overheating.

Don't get me started on ******** ideas on UAC jam duration increase bcs thats another nerf to mechs that do not boat these weapons yet until ED are enjoying the use. 10 s on uac20 is freaking hilarously bad design/idea.

[Bishop Steiner]

Cementi, on 23 October 2016 - 09:46 PM, said:

Does not make it ok though. People directly attacking anyone should be moderated so we can get back to a constructive discussion.

and usually they do. What they don't do, is get banned for a single or even small handful of occurrence, spread out. Mind you, I'll be the last to say that all the Mods are unbiased and consistent, but I will also say that often it's a judgement call and not a black and white thing. He was complaining about this ban (also a violation, technically), and I was simply explaining the difference in moderation.

BLOOD WOLF, on 23 October 2016 - 07:19 AM, said:

well some people are gonna start getting reported around here. Disagreeing is one thing, but I haven't been on the forums this long to be used to stuff like this. It's ridiculous

besides the month of September my list of offenses is pretty good for the last few years. These petty grudges have been going on for too long, and it needs to stop.

I honestly don't know how arguing the merits of ED, or discussing something about the game leads to grudges and pettiness and all this other stuff. Its beyond me.

I don't have a history neither. I got 5 reports, they only got me because I talked about someone that was banned. PGI don't like that.

you do know talking about your moderation...is against the CoC, etc, and thus grounds for more moderation? (vicious little circle that)

[Bishop Steiner]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 October 2016 - 10:53 PM, said:

What is fair about it? Or rather what is unfair about ghost heat? There is nothing unfair about trading long range DPS for short range alpha power by stacking medium lasers on top of larges. That is a tradeoff, and lately that tradeoff has not really been worth it... those mid range alpha builds have fallen by the wayside due to more recent balance adjustments. Its almost like balancing weapons and mechs can help to alleviate the large alphas being thrown around... Also, ED encourages boating, as it takes away the reason for doing things like mixing lasers with auto cannons.

Over 400 people have voted now, that's more than just a vocal minority.

I find that suspect in itself, considering the way we seem to be bleeding players... that that many would be on the forums. I wonder how many alt accounts some IP traces would find?

[Scout Derek]

Kin3ticX, on 23 October 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

Well I just built a new computer Im sure I can find something. I can also work on my raspberry pi3 or just do other projects on my spare time. I still need to buy the Btech game but I want to see previews of actual gameplay (not prototype alpha stuff).

that's true. I still need to buy it myself. I'm hoping to get it for free from one of my friends or relatives

and built a new computer huh? just how many do you have? :3

Bishop Steiner, on 24 October 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

I find that suspect in itself, considering the way we seem to be bleeding players... that that many would be on the forums. I wonder how many alt accounts some IP traces would find?

probably at least a eigth of all the accounts ever made are alt accounts, as well as dud accounts back then (aka spam bots). the count has gone down now in how many were made each day, Gotta thank Alexander again for helping me quell them back when I was still green.

[Gas Guzzler]

Bishop Steiner, on 24 October 2016 - 05:50 AM, said:

I find that suspect in itself, considering the way we seem to be bleeding players... that that many would be on the forums. I wonder how many alt accounts some IP traces would find?

Haven't used mine. I doubt a large percentage of the voters are alt accounts... and that goes both ways, so either side could be doing that. Unless you have proof we can't go around saying that.

It's more likely that people.just went and spread the word, I know I put it on OutreachHPG, because many of those guys don't bother with these forums anymore.

[Scout Derek]

Gas Guzzler, on 24 October 2016 - 07:20 AM, said:

Haven't used mine. I doubt a large percentage of the voters are alt accounts... and that goes both ways, so either side could be doing that. Unless you have proof we can't go around saying that.

It's more likely that people.just went and spread the word, I know I put it on OutreachHPG, because many of those guys don't bother with these forums anymore.

again, not all of these accounts are actual players. for years some were bots. now, I don't know if PGI actually perma deleted the accounts or not, but many were made in a day sometimes, sometimes as many as 5-10 in one day.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gaden Phoenix, on 23 October 2016 - 11:03 PM, said:

Firstly I have nothing against boating. If you do not like boating, just use different weapons. I have issue with boating 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPC or 6ML and 2 PLL to bypass ghost heat. Which is not affected by ghost heat now, while 7ML and, 1PLL is.

Secondly even if you take the concurrent users on steam at peak of 1848. 400 people who voted is only 20+%. That is still not a majority.

I have no issue with people not wanting ED. But statements like majority wants this or that are very misleading. Unless you have concrete proof, best you can say is a alot of the old guard on the forums that keep this game alive, do not want ED.

Well, of the sample size we have, which is over 400 people, the majority doesn't like it.

Boating 2 LPL and 6ML is a pretty high risk high reward build. It's extremely hot, and isn't even favored in the meta right now..most people aren't running that kind of build anymore, and if they are, it's likely in the slot queue where it is easy to poke and hide because everyone is so indecisive.
2 ERPPCs and 2Gauss rifles are different weapon systems that have to be aimed differently at non-close ranges, or against non-huge targets. Running around in a Kodiak 3 last night, most of the time I was firing ERPPCS and Gauss separately because targets were too for away to get a precise alpha off.. unlike 4 PPCS which would hit the same component if alpha'd at virtually any range.

[Bishop Steiner]

Kin3ticX, on 23 October 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

Well I just built a new computer Im sure I can find something. I can also work on my raspberry pi3 or just do other projects on my spare time. I still need to buy the Btech game but I want to see previews of actual gameplay (not prototype alpha stuff).

I normally agree... but well, the prototype alpha was already (IMO) better than a lot of "finished" games I have seen. And HBS has a pretty solid track record. But if for some reason it falls...won't be the first (or worst) 50$ I've wasted in my life.

Cementi, on 23 October 2016 - 09:32 PM, said:

This is actually a good point. While I do not always agree with you BW and frankly at times you can come off as a troll (honestly we all can) the amount of pointless posts attacking you and reattacking you with the same stuff does clutter alot of threads and yet nothing seems to happen to those doing the attacking.

does go both ways a bit.... in part because even when demonstrably wrong, he can cling doggedly to an argument. But yes, I would agree that he also gets trolled a lot... or counter-trolled? *shrugs*

[Catalina Steiner]

[mod]We received a lot of reports for this thread. So we are closing this thread until we worked on them. Later this thread might be opened again.
Thank you for your understanding.[/mod]

Edited by Catalina Steiner, 24 October 2016 - 08:04 AM.

[Catalina Steiner]

[mod]This thread stays locked because of various violations of our CoC (especially of OP). If you want to discuss ED, please use the off-topic section of our forums.
If you want to discuss MWO, there are various other threads to do this.

This thread will be moved to "Jettisoned communication" now.[/mod]