52 replies to this topic

[Tristan Winter]

Looking at maps from 2012 to 2016, do you think there's a positive trend in the quality of maps in MWO?

Note: I am not talking about the aesthetics and cosmetics. Textures, time of day, weather effects, that's not what this thread is about. Obviously, they're getting better at that.

Some questions to consider:

• Do you enjoy the newer maps more than the old maps?
  
• Are the new maps better balanced?
  
• Do the new maps offer more variation in terms of gameplay vs always fighting on the same location?

Spoiler

Trying to put these in order from when they were last modified (going from memory, so I may be completely off here):

Canyon Network (2013)
Alpine Peaks (2013)
Tourmaline Desert (2013)
HPG Manifold (2014)
Mining Collective (2014)
River City (originally 2012, last modified 2014)
Forest Colony (originally 2012, last modified 2015)
Polar Highlands (2015)
Grim Plexus (2015)
Caustic Valley (originally 2012, last modified 2015)
Frozen City (originally 2012, last modified 2016)
Viridian Bog (originally 2014, last modified 2016)
Crimson Strait (originally 2014, last modified 2016)
Terra Therma (originally 2013, last modified 2016)

Note: Even if these numbers were accurate (and they're probably not), keep in mind that many of the recent updates are almost purely cosmetic. Obviously, PGI is not going to update the best maps first, so this means the oldest unmodified maps will generally be the most popular ones. But it's still worth comparing those with the newest maps.

[ice trey]

Well, Forest Colony used to be everyone's favourite, and now it's one of the least picked maps second only to Terra Therma - though therma has recently been changed - and as far as players' griping as soon as a match starts goes, it really doesn't sound like it's a huge improvement.

I think the issue is that PGI is always trying to make maps "Bigger bigger bigger", when players don't really want to be trudging their 48kph assault mechs for five minutes before making it to the front lines. Often, the maps where only a very small area of the map gets played on end up being the most popular. Mining, Crimson, and HPG being the sickeningly overplayed examples.

[627]

wel they derped with forest imo, but new mordor is awesome, at least what I have seen so far. Gameplay there really changed and to something good I'd say.

Polar is a nice map, wide and open but with more cover people like to admit. Still, getting narced is a death sentence but fighting in the ice desert is unique for our maps, even when you look at alpine.

So overall I'd say it is getting better, or at least PGI moved away from the dota/3 lanes concept which is good.

[El Bandito]

ice trey, on 22 October 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

Well, Forest Colony used to be everyone's favourite, and now it's one of the least picked maps second only to Terra Therma - though therma has recently been changed - and as far as players' griping as soon as a match starts goes, it really doesn't sound like it's a huge improvement.

I think the issue is that PGI is always trying to make maps "Bigger bigger bigger", when players don't really want to be trudging their 48kph assault mechs for five minutes before making it to the front lines. Often, the maps where only a very small area of the map gets played on end up being the most popular. Mining, Crimson, and HPG being the sickeningly overplayed examples.

I hated the old Forest Colony. Very limited pathways, asymmetrical layout in a bad way, and worst ******* implementation of fog. Completely non-viable map for 12 v 12.

[RestosIII]

Honestly, I prefer the newer maps over older maps to an extent just because they have more room to them, so light/medium mechs get more space for maneuvers, and I have plenty of options for where to perform a right of zellbrigen. But on the other hand, they are making certain maps pale shadows of their former selves. I miss old Forest Colony with the cave. Thoughts of old Frozen City (night), despite its huge pick rate, make me nostalgic. But the biggest downside of the newer maps is the fact that they have no clue what optimization is, and keep adding more and more particle effects. Every time a map is updated, the game chugs a little more. Old Crimson Strait, max graphics? Consistent 60 fps. Now it can occasionally hit 25. Frozen City? Have fun seeing through the blizzard if you don't crank your settings down. Forest Colony? Hahahaha.

If we are talking solely design for combat in regards to cover and firing lanes? Probably a yes.

[LORD ORION]

No, one side of new terra therma is absolutely a terrible design.

You can stand in lava, or you can stand in enemy focus fire.
If you push the enemy, they have large defilade to fall back to, with 3 lanes of focus fire from the enemy when you reach the slope.

[Hunka Junk]

No.

It's interesting to note that, early on in the dev process, they said that having player-designed maps wouldn't save time overall.

With every map rework, that seems to have been a greater miscalculation.

The root of it all? Whoever is making and reworking these maps is doing it because it's their job and not because they enjoy playing MWO.

[MrMadguy]

It's simple. In the past I wanted "Ban 3 maps" feature in order to ban 2-3 worst maps in this game - Alpine, Therma and some other, Crimson Most likely. I didn't even care about other maps - all of them were good. And now this "ban 3 maps" situation turned into completely opposite - "ban everything, but 3 maps", lol.

Edited by MrMadguy, 23 October 2016 - 02:01 AM.

[Deathlike]

The answer is "lol not really".

If map making is akin to balance, then the Dartboard of Balance is working full time over time.

For instance, despite old Forest Colony being limited in space, new Forest Colony created mountains of fail, creating a funnel for no good reason and tactically bad for anyone that understands what they cause.

Polar Highlands is fine... I guess it's a plus considering it's about understanding where the cover is and what isn't (it's more lurm friendly, but not as lurm friendly people think it is).

Grim Plexus is boring. It still runs on the old system of high platforms ruling the day.

River City redux is better, but it didn't really change much of the fundamental play (Citadel is mostly king/key).

New Terra Therma has less funnels than old TT.. except for F7. The death trap awaits for ye who enter.

So... "not really" is the correct response IMO.

[jss78]

I really like new TT, enjoyed every game there so far. It looks epic, and the removal of the cauldron/pugzapper removed the only issue I had with the map anyway.

I like all the map revamps so far EXCEPT for Forest Colony. It looks wonderful, but has too many barriers for movement. My favourite part about Polar Highlands is how open-ended and mobile the games get there, due to lack of barriers.

Sometimes I wonder how much PGI can do to prevent derpy gameplay. There are weird group psychology things going on, with players developing a habit of doing a specific thing. With Alpine Peaks, back when I started the game Feb 2015, people didn't really do the rush to Candy Mountain (aka. Mount Tryhard, R*tard Ridge). Then a few months later that's ALL they did. And nowadays the gameplay is again more varied -- though the mountain is still there! Maybe there's a thesis subject in this for some student in sociology or psychology.

Also, despite the huge size of Forest Colony, most games are in that tiny region near the rock arch. Again, I'm not sure how much PGI can do to prevent this, apart from game modes which explicitly force the battle focus elsewhere.

Edited by jss78, 23 October 2016 - 02:21 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The designs are getting alot better but the frequency is not. Like everyone else has been saying, the mech packs are nice but what we need is a new map being dropped once per month. I have to admit, I am starting to get a bit bored of the same maps over and over. What we need is about 10 more added to the game ASAP. Then they need drop the silly map voting that would eliminate 9 of them from rotation because they happen to find the map too challenging because they can't see well through the trees and mist (Forest Colony).

[Hunka Junk]

Viktor Drake, on 23 October 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

What we need is about 10 more added to the game ASAP.

That, according to our overlords, would cost $2.5 million. And I'm not talking drachmas.

[Deathlike]

Hunka Junk, on 23 October 2016 - 06:19 AM, said:

That, according to our overlords, would cost $2.5 million. And I'm not talking drachmas.

The funny thing is... I don't know if they are done making more resources for maps.. it's not clear if that was the case.

Moreover, it SHOULD be easier to put out more maps if the resource making is mostly done... but that's not the case either.

It's a chicken or the egg deal where you'd rather have a "chicken crossed the road" joke.

[Y E O N N E]

River City is an improvement simply because the teams spawn much farther apart and there is a little more cover when crossing the bay. It's a small victory, because otherwise the map seems to play identically. Ironically, Citadel is still the central point despite Space Port having vastly superior sight-lines. You can deny Citadel from Space Port.

Forest Colony, again, better only because the teams can't shoot at each other right out of spawn. It has a little more room to maneuver, but not much. Only fast 'Mechs can really take advantage of the new space, and even then usually it's just costing your team armor and firepower for a prolonged period.

Viridian Bog is an improvement. I actually liked it better with the fog, but overall it has improved since they added a ramp to the back side of D4. I do wonder why one team has access to both hills while the other only gets one, though.

Frozen City, I don't care much for. I have a zillion maps already where taking ERLL/ER PPC/Gauss is always a good choice, and I miss the dedicated brawl of Old Frozen. This map just devolves into static firing lines shooting across the river and it's a snore.

Caustic Valley, it's an improvement. Stronger cover around the crater creates more restrictions on sight-lines and maneuvering, and Caustic games typically turn into fairly enjoyable skirmishes as both teams jockey around a small area to gain favorable angles.

Polar Highlands; long range is king, except maybe on domination. I'm ambivalent toward this map. I don't hate it, really, but I hate that most players have no idea how to play it.

Grim Plexus, is not terribly interesting, but it plays alright in QP. It's another trading map. The cap points for CQ are pretty much indefensible.

Crimson...is Crimson. I don't think it plays much differently, except now the map's built-in gamma settings blow my retinas out.

Terra Therma; loads better. F7 is a grinder, but nothing about the map compels you to go through F7 the way you were basically compelled through the caldera on the old one. Even better, the travel time to get a back-door angle if the match does devolve into an F7 slug-fest is much shorter, making the option more tenable.

So my verdict is that they are getting better, but marginally so. I think Terra Therma is the only map redesign so far with a strong positive improvement, the rest are more like accidents.

[Kanil]

lolno.

Bog got slightly better, Therma I'm still undecided about but leaning towards good. Polar, Plexus, and Frozen City are all... mediocre, at best. In general, I don't think the map pool has gotten better lately.

[Ghogiel]

I think the answer is yes..marginally

It's about as good as it's gong to get tho. iterative design is KING, which they do not do. Excelent map designs for this type of game is a combo of skill, luck and interation. It is difficult to predict how players will utilise areas in any given meta and what play/player trends develop when a map goes live. But since PGI doesn't iterate after launch except in rare cases/totally broken things, their process is missing a key ingredient.

So the maps aren't actually terrible considering. The bigger concern for me is game mode design, which imo PGI is very rudementary to downright aweful. Domination I think is garbage and that's the newest mode lol

[Pariah Devalis]

I've felt every single remake has been an improvement on the old.

Every. Single. One.

Old Forest Colony was way too small, even for 8v8. It was more of a 4v4 map, honestly. I find the new Colony a lot prettier to be on, and actually feels like a forest in the one area of the map that the design doesn't actually push fights towards. :\

Old Frozen City was OK, but tactically one dimensional, whereas the new version gives multiple paths of cover, high ground, low ground, and flanking options. Old one was also good for 8v8 but a little too small for 12v12. RIP Dropship Hill and Crows Nest hump.

Old and new Caustic Valley are essentially the same, in my eyes. Both are based too much on a central feature that pushes people to NASCAR around it. Neither made good use of the surrounding terrain, like the lake area or refinery.

River City is a shame, because if they just replaced the Citadel with more dense urban structures the remake could have been far more interesting. Instead, it plays out exactly like old River City because of it. So while technically it is improved, effectively it is the same map. Like Caustic, the interesting surrounding areas just don't get utilized outside of Scouting Mode, and even that is rare.

Bog was an improvement, but that isn't to say it is where it needs to be. The map is still too narrow, effectively. Chokes out a lot of game space. Having said that, knowing this community? More game space would just result in NASCAR, again.

I really, really like Polar Highlands and Grim Plexus. A lot. The fights are still a bit predictable, but the terrain is more equal for both sides, and you see flanking actions a lot more often on both. Fights feel a bit more mobile.

As for new Terra Therma, I know it is an improvement. I like the nooks and crannies and approach angles it gives. I just feel like it isn't used well by the playerbase. Which, frankly, is an issue on most of the maps. So much good map that just gets ignored.

[TLBFestus]

There has been an improvement in size but I still see issues with respect to making a design that encourages variety of play.

It's better than it was, with the HUGE exception of CW/FW maps, but there's still room for improvement.

[cazidin]

They're getting more experienced, at least. Most of the map changes, I think, were for the better.

[Simbacca]

Viktor Drake, on 23 October 2016 - 06:06 AM, said:

The designs are getting alot better but the frequency is not. Like everyone else has been saying, the mech packs are nice but what we need is a new map being dropped once per month. I have to admit, I am starting to get a bit bored of the same maps over and over. What we need is about 10 more added to the game ASAP. Then they need drop the silly map voting that would eliminate 9 of them from rotation because they happen to find the map too challenging because they can't see well through the trees and mist (Forest Colony).

I would argue that every map needs a dynamic configuration of: spawn points, cap points, and base location (was somewhat like this on the old Forest Colony map - where the resource points had 2 different configurations). This would force players to use parts of the map that are generally ignored. Thus this would make maximum use of existing map assets, but also keep game play interesting.

So if the large maps had 5 different location configurations, and the small maps 2 - it would most definitely help to prevent fighting in the same spots over and over again.