338 replies to this topic

[Dee Eight]

I have to laugh at an Tier 2 labeling a Tier 1 an average player, when the 2 has merely average results also. As to the whole "single" data points... go look at Bandito's ARC-5W scores. He created a thread to brag about the mech last month.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5412770

[MedivalJ]

Mcgral18, on 26 October 2016 - 06:50 PM, said:

That Ghost Heat Mk3 would be any better than its predecessors?

Did I say I liked ghost heat?

[Llymrel]

The kodiak is a completely broken mech and flat ruining the game. Walk around a corner and you have 2 seconds before you're likely out of commission. You might live, but armor stripped and torso gone....and that's if you immediately retreat.

I'm so tired of seeing 2-3 Kodiaks per match. Despite playing since beta almost continuous, I think this may be what forces me out of the game. PGI seems totally unresponsive despite near continuous ongoing kdk 3 is broken threads. Its obvious they know...

[xWiredx]

A 700dmg match in a KDK3 does not mean it is OP. Neither do your overall stats. That's an 812dmg average, which is higher than I usually see other people. I mean, I just witnessed a full-meta KDK3 do less than 200 in a match tonight.

I've been taking the KDK3 out as my first mech in FW for the past few weeks, and I consider it a waste if I don't break 1k each time (which, out of probably 30 matches has happened maybe 3 or 4 times). My highest, though, is just short of 1500 I think. If you want to make a case for it being OP, start busting out the real numbers.

[Zergling]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

I have to laugh at an Tier 2 labeling a Tier 1 an average player, when the 2 has merely average results also.

By thinking Tier has anything to do with skill, you confirmed your potato status.

Aside from that, my own skill level has nothing to do with determining the skill level of another player based on that statistical performance.
I wasn't judging performance compared to my own, but versus known averages, shown here.

Or if you can't open that file, here is a screenshot of the relevant section:


Here is UnofficialOperator's leaderboard stats for this month again:
Overall = 1.18 W/L, 1.56 K/D, 270 average MS
Lights = 1.27 W/L, 1.10 K/D, 185 average MS
Mediums = 0.68 W/L, 0.74 K/D, 168 average MS
Heavies = 1.00 W/L, 1.43 K/D, 248 average MS
Assaults = 1.54 W/L, 2.28 K/D, 369 average MS

His performance in lights is between top 25% and 50%.
His performance in mediums is below the bottom 25%.
His performance in heavies is just above the top 25%.
His performance in assaults is between top 1% and top 5%.

So it is quite fair to say that he between below average to above average, based on his performance in lights/mediums/heavies, and that his performance in assaults is the result of the KDK-3 boosting his performance well above his actual skill level.


For MOBAjobg, his leaderboard stats for this month again:
Leaderboard stats of this KDK-3 player:

Overall = 1.16 W/L, 1.32 K/D, 255 average MS
Lights = 1.11 W/L, 1.01 K/D, 184 average MS
Mediums = 1.06 W/L, 0.83 K/D, 214 average MS
Heavies = 1.40 W/L, 1.09 K/D, 239 average MS
Assaults = 1.15 W/L, 1.72 K/D, 310 average MS

His performance in lights is between top 25% and 50%.
His performance in mediums is just above the top 50%.
His performance in heavies is just below the top 25%.
His performance in assaults is between top 5% and top 10%.

So again, this is an average to above average player based on performance in lights/mediums/heavies. Only in assaults is this player doing far above average, which is entirely because of the KDK-3.


But since you bought up my performance, my leaderboard stats for this month are as follows:
Overall = 1.27 W/L, 1.76 K/D, 260 average MS
Lights = 1.02 W/L, 1.37 K/D, 231 average MS
Mediums = 1.35 W/L, 2.22 K/D, 258 average MS
Heavies = 1.48 W/L, 1.96 K/D, 278 average MS
Assaults = 1.22 W/L, 1.64 K/D, 261 average MS

My performance in lights is just below the top 10%.
My performance in mediums is mid-way between top 25% and top 10%
My performance in heavies is slightly above the top 10%
My performance in assaults is exactly on the top 25% mark.

Mechs I've been using this month:
Lights = mostly Arctic Cheetah, some Locust -1V
Mediums = mostly Shadow Cat, some Griffin Sparky
Heavies = Ebon Jaguar, Summoner, Timber Wolf, Hellbringer, Orion Protector, Jagermech Firebrand
Assaults = mostly Executioner, some Atlas and Warhawk.

So without abusing the KDK-3, I have pulled off some good results in all weight classes; my performance would be considered 'above average' to 'good'.

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 06:51 PM, said:

As to the whole "single" data points... go look at Bandito's ARC-5W scores. He created a thread to brag about the mech last month.

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__5412770

And that is relevant how?

Edited by Zergling, 26 October 2016 - 08:08 PM.

[Lightfoot]

BCAW, on 26 October 2016 - 02:40 PM, said:

Do tell, what kind of build involving LPLs is capable of out-DPSing a dakkabear? I am genuinely interested. And it sounds like the bear pilot you faced didn't know the meaning of torso twisting or arm shielding, and it sounds like his UACs may have jammed, which, while is a real concern in any clan dakka build, isn't enough to justify how OP it is.

Good on you for liking challenges and slaying bears. Still doesn't change the fact that the KDK-3 need to be brought in line. That wouldn't be a "mindless" nerf. Plenty of people here have explained why.

Not telling. No one seems to have noticed it or built it maybe. It's not that great on raw damage, just very good vs the Kodiak.

Power Creep. Well the Huntsman certainly isn't power creep, but it can do quite a few things. They actually should fix the Huntsman since the giant hitboxes it has are overdone. The Kodiak has the same giant hitboxes to counter the loadouts it can carry.

Just a final word of advice before you all send Paul to open Pandora's Box again. Any nerf applied to the Kodiak will affect every other mech since it already has the giant CT hitbox. The only thing they can do is to create negative quirks, which at the moment, no mech has.

[Zergling]

Lightfoot, on 26 October 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

Just a final word of advice before you all send Paul to open Pandora's Box again. Any nerf applied to the Kodiak will affect every other mech since it already has the giant CT hitbox. The only thing they can do is to create negative quirks, which at the moment, no mech has.

They can give the KDK-3 more restricted torso yaw than the other versions of the Kodiak, much as the BLR-1G and BLR-3M are restricted to 60 degrees versus 80 of the other Battlemasters.

[El Bandito]

Lightfoot, on 26 October 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

Not telling. No one seems to have noticed it or built it maybe. It's not that great on raw damage, just very good vs the Kodiak.

Power Creep. Well the Huntsman certainly isn't power creep, but it can do quite a few things. They actually should fix the Huntsman since the giant hitboxes it has are overdone. The Kodiak has the same giant hitboxes to counter the loadouts it can carry.

Just a final word of advice before you all send Paul to open Pandora's Box again. Any nerf applied to the Kodiak will affect every other mech since it already has the giant CT hitbox. The only thing they can do is to create negative quirks, which at the moment, no mech has.

1. For the bolded part: No one is asking to nerf the Kodiaks in general, only the Kodiak-3.

2. For the underlined part: Timbie-A LT disagrees with you. Also see Dire Whale-W 's head omnipod with its -2 armor quirk.

[Dee Eight]

Zergling, on 26 October 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

By thinking Tier has anything to do with skill, you confirmed your potato status.

Rather be a potato than what you are.

[BCAW]

Lightfoot, on 26 October 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

Not telling. No one seems to have noticed it or built it maybe. It's not that great on raw damage, just very good vs the Kodiak.

Power Creep. Well the Huntsman certainly isn't power creep, but it can do quite a few things. They actually should fix the Huntsman since the giant hitboxes it has are overdone. The Kodiak has the same giant hitboxes to counter the loadouts it can carry.

Just a final word of advice before you all send Paul to open Pandora's Box again. Any nerf applied to the Kodiak will affect every other mech since it already has the giant CT hitbox. The only thing they can do is to create negative quirks, which at the moment, no mech has.

You know, you had my respect when you said you enjoy challenges, but you've just lost it with this "not telling" and "just very good vs Kodiak" BS. I was sincerely, genuinely looking forward to the build you said you used. You expect me to believe that whatever build you claim to have used have a magical "+50% damage vs Kodiak" quirk? Sorry, until you can show me a LPL build that has a decent chance vs the dakkabear at 300 meters, I cannot and will not believe you.

And the hitbox argument again. Torso twist, arm shield. Know when you can stare and when you need to back off. Nuff said.

The final word of advice... what? How would a KDK-3 nerf affect other mechs? And what has the hitbox has to do with it? Mind elaborating?

Edited by BCAW, 26 October 2016 - 08:10 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 08:04 PM, said:

Rather be a potato than what you are.

Damned Critical thinkers


They bring numbers and data into emotional arguments
Statisticians are the worst

[Dee Eight]

I have seen KDK-3s with 4 LPL... maybe that's what he's using.

[Mcgral18]

xWiredx, on 26 October 2016 - 07:21 PM, said:

A 700dmg match in a KDK3 does not mean it is OP. Neither do your overall stats. That's an 812dmg average, which is higher than I usually see other people. I mean, I just witnessed a full-meta KDK3 do less than 200 in a match tonight.

I've been taking the KDK3 out as my first mech in FW for the past few weeks, and I consider it a waste if I don't break 1k each time (which, out of probably 30 matches has happened maybe 3 or 4 times). My highest, though, is just short of 1500 I think. If you want to make a case for it being OP, start busting out the real numbers.

I find under 1000 damage in any mech a waste in CW
I've gotten 2600 damage with a Crow, ERPPCs spamming across Boreal

But CW is not the PUG LIFE. I'm disappointed when I get under 2000 damage there, with 48 mechs, while there are very few mechs who have managed 2000 damage in the PUG LIFE. Kodiak is among them (and the only Dakka boat)
Where 1000 damage is not a regular score (ignoring the fact my Pre-UAC10 GH my KDK3 had 1000 average damage), and generally takes some effort



It takes considerably less effort in the Bear
Dakka or Poke variants, both dish damage with good mobility.

[Lightfoot]

Sorry this place is too nerf-a-holic. MW4 devs would listen, but rarely nerf unless it was truely a balance problem. You could discuss builds in MW4. Most of my good MWO mechs eventually get nerfed and then just sit in their hangers like the Victor and Dragon Slayer, a lot of others dead to nerfs. I will say Lasers have the hidden stat of accuracy which MWO doesn't bother to track in the scoring. PSR and scoring is based on raw damage.

[BCAW]

Dee Eight, on 26 October 2016 - 08:13 PM, said:

I have seen KDK-3s with 4 LPL... maybe that's what he's using.

A 4 LPL KDK-3. Ok.
I'm bored out of my mind right now, so I decided to do something of a thought experiment, and went over to Smurfy's and made this monstrosity: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...2fbb5c541e4263c
I debated with myself a bit over whether I should've removed the T-Comp 7 and added more heatsink instead. In the end, I opted for the T-Comp 7 because 1, the crit boost should give it an edge in damage vs open components, and b, the idea of 4 LPL KDK-3 is as ridiculous as the idea of using T-Comp 7.

So, lets for simplicity's sake ignore ghost heat and UAC jamming, and assume all combatants were fresh, and facing each other at 300 meters. The PulseBear would be able to pump out 52 damage every 3.25 seconds, while the DakkaBear can deliver 20 damage every 1.66 seconds and 40 damage every 2.5 seconds. Again, for simplicity's sake, lets assume that both are standing still and blasting each other's CT, which have the same amount of armor.

I still can't see how the PulseBear would win aside from perhaps an extremely lucky series of crits. And if you are relying on RNG things like crits and jam chances to win fights... well, I fail to see how that's remotely skill-related, or why should the act of gambling with numbers determine overall balance of a game.

Then again, this was all just a silly theorycrafted scenario.

[Mcgral18]

Lightfoot, on 26 October 2016 - 08:38 PM, said:

Sorry this place is too nerf-a-holic. MW4 devs would listen, but rarely nerf unless it was truely a balance problem.

Bruh

[BCAW]

Lightfoot, on 26 October 2016 - 08:38 PM, said:

Sorry this place is too nerf-a-holic. MW4 devs would listen, but rarely nerf unless it was truely a balance problem. You could discuss builds in MW4. Most of my good MWO mechs eventually get nerfed and then just sit in their hangers like the Victor and Dragon Slayer, a lot of others dead to nerfs. I will say Lasers have the hidden stat of accuracy which MWO doesn't bother to track in the scoring. PSR and scoring is based on raw damage.

Lasers have the hidden stat of accuracy? This game has near-instant pinpoint convergence you know, which many thinks is impeding balance. I am among those people. If you can properly lead your target, ballistics are just as accurate as lasers unless the space between weapons are really wide. The KDK-3's ballistic points are clustered nicely, convergence isn't much of an issue even at range vs moving targets.

You really don't want to start talking about things like accuracy and convergence. Those are part of the reason why the KDK-3 is as powerful as it is right now. Not gonna help your case in claiming the KDK-3 is balanced.

Edited by BCAW, 26 October 2016 - 08:47 PM.

[RestosIII]

BCAW, on 26 October 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

Lasers have the hidden stat of accuracy? This game has pinpoint convergence you know, which many thinks is impeding balance. I am among those people. If you can properly lead your target, ballistics are just as accurate as lasers unless the space between weapons are really wide. The KDK-3's ballistic points are clustered nicely, convergence isn't much of an issue even at range vs moving targets.

You really don't want to start talking about things like accuracy and convergence. Those are part of the reason why the KDK-3 is as powerful as it is right now. Not gonna help your case in claiming the KDK-3 is balanced.

'gets reminded that Pinpoint is a skill that is still in the game that has never been removed, despite how easy it would be to remove it'

[Mystere]

Llymrel, on 26 October 2016 - 07:17 PM, said:

The kodiak is a completely broken mech and flat ruining the game.

Exaggerations do not help your arguments.

[MOBAjobg]

Zergling, on 26 October 2016 - 07:25 PM, said:

For MOBAjobg, his leaderboard stats for this month again:
Leaderboard stats of this KDK-3 player:

Overall = 1.16 W/L, 1.32 K/D, 255 average MS
Lights = 1.11 W/L, 1.01 K/D, 184 average MS
Mediums = 1.06 W/L, 0.83 K/D, 214 average MS
Heavies = 1.40 W/L, 1.09 K/D, 239 average MS
Assaults = 1.15 W/L, 1.72 K/D, 310 average MS

His performance in lights is between top 25% and 50%.
His performance in mediums is just above the top 50%.
His performance in heavies is just below the top 25%.
His performance in assaults is between top 5% and top 10%.

So again, this is an average to above average player based on performance in lights/mediums/heavies. Only in assaults is this player doing far above average, which is entirely because of the KDK-3.

I'd played 4517 matches in a KDK-3 so obviously, I'm doing much better for "Assault" than the other weight classes however I expect that my performance for the "Heavy" weight class since I've just mastered a SMN-M(L) should be in between top 5% and top 10% as well. I can't wait for next season to commence.

I'm also confident that I can pilot both Light and Medium mechs to perform at similar standards eventually.

Edited by MOBAjobg, 27 October 2016 - 12:08 AM.