301 replies to this topic

[Quicksilver Aberration]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

1) You should probably look up objective.

Considering there is no bias or feelings there, pretty sure I was perfectly objective. Ignoring various factors and attributing loss of players to one factor losing the potential to be change is not objective, especially if there is no evidence as to WHY those players are leaving. Your bias is that it is related to core gameplay when there are more factors that could easily be playing as big if not bigger part in the exodus.

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 12:08 PM, said:

2) Yes, existing problems in the game that are not being changed caused the loss of players... that's the point. Nice job following along.

Which ones though is what matters (because they are plenty, and you are attributing the exodus to only a portion of those factors), or I could just be a complete tool like you and ignore them I suppose.

[topgun505]

Shrugs.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.

I used to run 6 SPL on my ACH. I purposely dropped it to 5, not because of heat efficiency, but to practice using it in a post-ED environment (where I was assuming 30 damage would be the cap).

Really shouldn't be THAT difficult to adapt. Yeah, I have (exactly) 100 mechs, as I'm sure a lot of hardcore players have. But how many of yours are ACTUALLY used? I probably have 10 that don't have dust collecting on them.

[Kin3ticX]

They are working on a 3rd bar called the safespace bar because ED wasnt going to work if anyone still had hurt feelings

The new bar will go up and down depending on

*Incoming Player Reports
*Outgoing player reports
*additional heat for inflicting damage (LRMS exempt)
*More rear armor means more safespace pool
*the more different kinds of weapons you have the faster the recharge of safespace
*typing flagged words into chat drops safespace and damaging internal structure (ex: ggclose, ggrekt, gg)

ETA Q1 2017

Edited by Kin3ticX, 27 October 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

topgun505, on 27 October 2016 - 12:42 PM, said:

Shrugs.

Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.

I used to run 6 SPL on my ACH. I purposely dropped it to 5, not because of heat efficiency, but to practice using it in a post-ED environment (where I was assuming 30 damage would be the cap).

Really shouldn't be THAT difficult to adapt. Yeah, I have (exactly) 100 mechs, as I'm sure a lot of hardcore players have. But how many of yours are ACTUALLY used? I probably have 10 that don't have dust collecting on them.

Nobody is worried about adapting. For ****'s sake read the arguments against ED. Adapting is not a problem, nerfing mediocre alpha builds while leaving other builds mostly unharmed is going to make balance worse than it is.

I have like 200 mechs and I tend to go on little sprees of using a mech more often and then switching to another mech. For the casual solo dropping, pretty much every chassis can be configured to do something useful (there are a couple exceptions of course).

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Bud Crue, on 27 October 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

I dis. Leader board stats. Look em up.

Best case scenario this could tell you the total number of players to play at least one match in a given month, for the last 3 months.

3 whole data points.... You're right, that's great to draw a conclusion from.

Mcgral18, on 27 October 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

As if your argument is any better

Ah yes, can't supply counter evidence so argument is "bad".

Mcgral18, on 27 October 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

The decline is due to the game itself, nothing else

One sentence ago the argument was bad, and now you agree.... strange.

Mcgral18, on 27 October 2016 - 12:25 PM, said:

Steam dropouts from the poorly received launch, and bad NPE

Objective evidence that these are the only causes? Or do you only require evidence for every claim made when it's someone else?

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

So essentially you know nothing about Energy Draw

1) I didn't say I know nothing about it.

Next non-point?

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 12:27 PM, said:

we know because we tested it)

1) In a 4v4 environment, which doesn't represent live gameplay in any way and is therefore useless.

2) With a multitude of variables that changed from test to test.

Either one of these completely negates any extrapolation you might want to project onto live gameplay, let alone both at the same time.

Non-tests are not tests.

Edited by Ex Atlas Overlord, 27 October 2016 - 01:07 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

The decline is due to the game itself, nothing else

And largely PGI's refusal to do Super Simple Stuff™

Such as not create Ghost Heat Mk2, and instead exchange one number for another

[Gas Guzzler]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

1) I didn't say I know nothing about it.

Next non-point?



1) In a 4v4 environment, which doesn't represent live gameplay in any way and is therefore useless.

2) With a multitude of variables that changed from test to test.

Either one of these completely negates any extrapolation you might want to project onto live gameplay, let alone both at the same time.

Non-tests are not tests.

The decline is due to the game itself, nothing else

I'm making assumptions on your knowledge of it based on what you say about it. The conclusion I drew was that you were completely ignorant to how it works, and what its side effects are.

You are right 4v4 doesn't represent actually gameplay, which is why reports of experiencing "Higher TTK" and "more tactical fights" hold no water, because focus fire in a 12v12 completely invalidates a TTK argument, and with 12 per team, enemies can shoot you from more angles meaning you are more limited on positioning.

It was clear to see that any loadout involving burst DPS would require double or triple face time, the other tweaks don't change that outcome. So, your options are to pick the easiest way to maximize your burst DPS with two firing groups, or you just being a build that can put out a sustained DPS of 20.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 October 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[Novakaine]

Twenty five new players introduced by myself since closed beta.
Only two remain active at all.
Main reasons for leaving high learning curve and tissue paper mechs.
Oh by the way the two remaining people are clan players exclusively.
And I think we know why.

[Deathlike]

Novakaine, on 27 October 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Twenty five new players introduced by myself since closed beta.
Only two remain active at all.
Main reasons for leaving high learning curve and tissue paper mechs.
Oh by the way the two remaining people are clan players exclusively.
And I think we know why.

I'm pretty sure that's science for the NPE.. not so much on balance.

[Novakaine]

Nope no science involved simple fact.

[Gas Guzzler]

Novakaine, on 27 October 2016 - 01:09 PM, said:

Twenty five new players introduced by myself since closed beta.
Only two remain active at all.
Main reasons for leaving high learning curve and tissue paper mechs.
Oh by the way the two remaining people are clan players exclusively.
And I think we know why.

Were they "LRMIN' LIKE BOSSES"? Because yeah, great way to experience "tissue paper mechs". Using a loadout that doesn't require so much staring might work out better, but if you gave them the advice "use lurms" then, well, you probably sealed their fate.

The people I have tried to get in the game didn't like the grind, so I guess that means THAT is the reason for bad new player retention, based on your logic there.

[Kmieciu]

xe N on, on 26 October 2016 - 08:17 PM, said:

So, we have Episode 2: Return of the Alpha Warrior Online ...

ED was not well done but a step into the right direction. Ghost heat just plain failed in archiving anything it originally intended.

8 ML = 40 damage = ghost heat
6 ML + 3LPL = 63 damage = no ghost heat

Can you find the logic?

FTFY

[Jackal Noble]

Mcgral18, on 27 October 2016 - 12:16 PM, said:

Now I've got to ask you:

Why not do Super Simple Stuff™, like changing a 0.8 to a 1.0, or something that doesn't involve designing a completely new system?



The Cryhards are a strange bunch

XML Draw must not have the same ring as Energy Draw.

Further , what's not say that ED isn't the mutant step child of super simple stuff, albeit...mutated

Edited by JackalBeast, 27 October 2016 - 01:50 PM.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

I'm making assumptions on your knowledge of it based on what you say about it. The conclusion I drew was that you were completely ignorant to how it works, and what its side effects are.

I made no claims about how ED would affect anything. My only claim so far has been that making no changes has led to a continual decline in players.

This is like non-point #7 or something.... do you ever stop?

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 01:08 PM, said:

You are right 4v4 doesn't represent actually gameplay, which is why reports of experiencing "Higher TTK" and "more tactical fights" hold no water, because focus fire in a 12v12 completely invalidates a TTK argument, and with 12 per team, enemies can shoot you from more angles meaning you are more limited on positioning.

Exactly. No actual tests were done to see how it would affect real gameplay....

Ergo: You dismissing it as a bad system for actual gameplay based on tests that don't reflect actual gameplay holds no water.

And finally after talking in circles, dodging constant non-points, and avoiding attempts at changing the topic we've arrive at why your arguments to claim ED is bad are baseless....

Q.E.D.

Edit: Now I'm off to eat and spend time with my son. Enjoy your echo chamber, I'll poke holes in your points no longer.

Edited by Ex Atlas Overlord, 27 October 2016 - 01:55 PM.

[Mcgral18]

JackalBeast, on 27 October 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

XML Draw must not have the same ring as Energy Draw.

Further , what's not say that ED isn't the mutant step child of super simple stuff, albeit...mutated

Iterative balance has a nice ring to it, I find
Ghost Heat Mk2 does not have the Super Simple ring to it


You don't need Ghost Heat Mk2 to change weapon attributes, but you do need some decisions to be made. Preferably with data

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Exactly. No actual tests were done to see how it would affect real gameplay....

It's not like there were any 12 VS 12 ED tests
I certainly wasn't a part of those (including some IS VS Clam, Clams being OP AF with gimped quirks+LL nerfs)

[Gas Guzzler]

Rampage, on 26 October 2016 - 11:09 PM, said:

No, take the over performing Mechs and tap them down a bit. Power creep is a thing. TTK is short enough already.

I mean, you do both so you balance around what is middle of the road now:

MLX, PHX, VND go up
KDK-3 comes down

[Gas Guzzler]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

I made no claims about how ED would affect anything. My only claim so far has been that making no changes has led to a continual decline in players.

This is like non-point #7 or something.... do you ever stop?



Exactly. No actual tests were done to see how it would affect real gameplay....

Ergo: You dismissing it as a bad system for actual gameplay based on tests that don't reflect actual gameplay holds no water.

And finally after talking in circles, dodging constant non-points, and avoiding attempts at changing the topic we've arrive at why your arguments to claim ED is bad are baseless....

Q.E.D.

Edit: Now I'm off to eat and spend time with my son. Enjoy your echo chamber, I'll poke holes in your points no longer.

ITT, Ordellus makes a stink about ("I didn't make a stink, that's a non-point" yeah, right, I get it) energy draw being abandoned because he thinks it might bring more players in, we tell him why we think its bad, he says essentially "I never said it was good". I guess the best defense is to not actually stand by anything you say?

Non-points must be arbitrarily defined as points that you don't agree with. Whatever helps you sleep it night, in my eyes, I'm right and your wrong. GGrekt, don't let the light back core you on the way out, I know how overpowered they can be when compared to assault mechs!

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 27 October 2016 - 02:15 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Gas Guzzler, on 27 October 2016 - 02:14 PM, said:

mechs!

You're supposed to say Gundams when you use satire

[RestosIII]

Mcgral18, on 27 October 2016 - 02:17 PM, said:

You're supposed to say Gundams when you use satire

[Bud Crue]

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

Best case scenario this could tell you the total number of players to play at least one match in a given month, for the last 3 months.

3 whole data points.... You're right, that's great to draw a conclusion from.

Well, that is the only real data we have, so yes. Those data points reflect everyone playing during those event periods. Contrast that relatively complete accounting of the active player population over those time periods to your coveted Steam numbers, which are not reflect of the entire population. Three data points reflecting everyone playing is by definition more representative of everyone playing over those time periods than Steam numbers which only reflect those people playing via Steam.

Ex Atlas Overlord, on 27 October 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

1) In a 4v4 environment, which doesn't represent live gameplay in any way and is therefore useless.

2) With a multitude of variables that changed from test to test.

Either one of these completely negates any extrapolation you might want to project onto live gameplay, let alone both at the same time.

Non-tests are not tests.

Ah, so this whole disagreement and round of mental mastur...ion has been about definitions? Fine. Does this work:
In the 4x4 testing environment provided by PGI, wherein ED is being tested with countless other variables that may or may not be part of ED, but which PGI introduced into that same testing environment, the effect that ED has on mech and weapon performance overall sucks, in that environment. When that performance criteria, is in general compared to the effect of ghost heat in the current 12x12 live game environment, ED also sucks on a build to build comparison. "Sucks" of course being an entirely subjective term.