44 replies to this topic

[MischiefSC]

Okay. Not playing lately so I've tried to avoid topics like this but I see it and have seen it a million times so I'm going to go ahead and put this down.

Yes, the chokepoint maps are mostly in need of an overhaul. To a degree you want 'chokepoints', you want defensible positions around the gun/gens or you won't have any real way to defend the guns/gens. You also want a map design that enables and supports ways to close in or every single match will be a snipefest. At the risk of a blasphemy here I'll say that while the maps are not amazing, they're not bad.

People however need to quit blaming their losses in FW on 'bad maps' or even 'bad balance'. Sure, balance is off right now but not by as much as it's been in the past.

You're getting crushed in FW because A) you're trying to play it like it's pug queue and B ) you're taking bad mechs.

You're never losing because 'bad maps'. Ever. Every single team that's crushed you, every single one of them, has won while playing your exact same side of the map that you just lost on. They've probably done it hundreds of times.

You lose because you're not willing/able to do the teamwork thing. I get it - not everyone is a drop caller. In fact most the people who are, probably shouldn't. However if someone does, play with it/too it. Talk to your teammates and make a collaborative effort. Practice playing as a team, try to drop consistently with the same group of people if you can.

Building teams/groups makes finding matches in FW easier for everyone. You want to play solo play the BF1 campaign. It's pretty cool. Play Dying Light. Play something meant for that. Quit ******* trying to play solo in FW, that's literally what's driving your losses.

Also leave your 'lore' builds and 'it scores well in QP' builds in QP. FW plays differently and requires its own builds to do well in, learn them and play them. If you can't put your ego aside in FW and play what helps your team/faction win in FW then you deserve to lose and your team is absolutely 100% in the right to mock you for being a failure and dragging them down. FW is different from QP because there is a massive, massive premium on teamwork. 12 mediocre players with moderate amounts of teamwork can face-roll 80%+ of their matches and give good teams a solid match. It takes more work to get into a FW match than QP; there is no excuse, at all, for going solo rambo into FW. You're effectively trolling 23 other people who are looking for a good match and as such they are, absolutely, in the right if they mock you and farm you.

You get farmed because you're making bad choices. Full stop. There is nowhere else, at all, the blame for that goes. Yes, FW needs a crap ton of changes. They'll never happen. Ever. In fact FW, as it is right now, is likely better than it will be after the next big 'update' PGI is planning.

If you don't want farmed quit acting like a potato. It's not hard. Everyone wants to help you. Quit stopping yourself from getting better and making the game more fun for everyone, including you.

[Phil Moro Omaha]

I've probably fallen victim to a point or two listed above, or broken the "rules" such as Mischief lays out. But, all around, very solid points and pieces of advice that need to be taken.

Don't wanna be in charge? Listen to the guy that's making the calls. Even if they're bad calls, or even wrong calls, they're better than NO calls.

[BuckshotSchell]

Yes to OP. I've never thought the maps were that bad, but I get flamed everyone I point out they make perfect sense from a defensive point. They could be better, but I wouldn't want maps ala Call of Dookie with Windows and door ways and six different ways into one room. Those are balanced maps that give no advantage to either side. They are also nit realistic nor promote good tactics. I would love some more maps, with some different terrain, and some new game modes would be awesome. Myself and several others have made some suggestions as to this, he'll I wouldn't mind if they incorporate the QP maps in if they had a good game mode to go with them.

Edited by BuckshotSchell, 28 October 2016 - 12:59 PM.

[Bud Crue]

Maps? People blame the maps?

I mean I've been farmed...plenty. But I, and those I know, who have fallen to this ignoble fate, get farmed because we are:
timid and don't push together,
fail to call targets...or fail to shoot together at the target called,
tried something "clever",
brought "fun" builds,
or are just plain bad.
Never has it ever entered my mind, nor has anyone I know, ever thought to blame the map.
But I like it! And shall use it in the future as my excuse.
Learn something new everyday. The Map's Fault. TMF!

[Positive Mental Attitude]

Ive dropped in pug groups whove farmed 12mans while on IS side attacking and defending. Maps need quality of life improvements and maybe IS could use proper streaks but you nailed it. Bringing proper loadouts and working together is 75% of the fight won.

[B0oN]

Thanks, Mischief, for setting things STRAIGHTER .



<3

[Void Angel]

I haven't seen people blaming the maps much, but I agree that the biggest problem in Faction Play is that people assume their favorite builds will always work there - and that they can play the same "hide behind your teammates" non-tactics that many of them are using in PuG play. Balance is at a pretty good place between factions overall - although that's always a moving target - and while the game mode still needs a lot of work, it's player behaviors that drive most losses, not the mechanics of the game.

PS: While some changes have been a step backwards in the past (hack,cough,LONGTOM,cough,) PGI has been lerarning and getting better making and redesigning maps, at the very least. The rework passes have improved every map they've been done for, and the new releases have been much better about rewarding different types of gameplay (so of course everyone votes Canyon Network so they don't have to worry and can just camp. But I'm not bitter...) The Heat Scale penalty likewise made the game better despite being imperfect - so it's fallacious to say that "needed" changes are "never going to happen," or that the planned revamp of game modes will invariably be worse.

Edited by Void Angel, 28 October 2016 - 01:53 PM.

[Cox Devalis]

Can I get an exclusive "2nd like button" for that post?

[Commander A9]

Topic "Enough Whining" still relevant.

Seriously...

Edited by Commander A9, 28 October 2016 - 03:16 PM.

[ccrider]

So what your saying is I need to lrm boat all my atlas'?

[Javin]

Sounds legit.

[Willard Phule]

MischiefSC, on 28 October 2016 - 10:22 AM, said:

Okay. Not playing lately so I've tried to avoid topics like this but I see it and have seen it a million times so I'm going to go ahead and put this down.

Yes, the chokepoint maps are mostly in need of an overhaul. To a degree you want 'chokepoints', you want defensible positions around the gun/gens or you won't have any real way to defend the guns/gens. You also want a map design that enables and supports ways to close in or every single match will be a snipefest. At the risk of a blasphemy here I'll say that while the maps are not amazing, they're not bad.

People however need to quit blaming their losses in FW on 'bad maps' or even 'bad balance'. Sure, balance is off right now but not by as much as it's been in the past.

You're getting crushed in FW because A) you're trying to play it like it's pug queue and B ) you're taking bad mechs.

You're never losing because 'bad maps'. Ever. Every single team that's crushed you, every single one of them, has won while playing your exact same side of the map that you just lost on. They've probably done it hundreds of times.

You lose because you're not willing/able to do the teamwork thing. I get it - not everyone is a drop caller. In fact most the people who are, probably shouldn't. However if someone does, play with it/too it. Talk to your teammates and make a collaborative effort. Practice playing as a team, try to drop consistently with the same group of people if you can.

Building teams/groups makes finding matches in FW easier for everyone. You want to play solo play the BF1 campaign. It's pretty cool. Play Dying Light. Play something meant for that. Quit ******* trying to play solo in FW, that's literally what's driving your losses.

Also leave your 'lore' builds and 'it scores well in QP' builds in QP. FW plays differently and requires its own builds to do well in, learn them and play them. If you can't put your ego aside in FW and play what helps your team/faction win in FW then you deserve to lose and your team is absolutely 100% in the right to mock you for being a failure and dragging them down. FW is different from QP because there is a massive, massive premium on teamwork. 12 mediocre players with moderate amounts of teamwork can face-roll 80%+ of their matches and give good teams a solid match. It takes more work to get into a FW match than QP; there is no excuse, at all, for going solo rambo into FW. You're effectively trolling 23 other people who are looking for a good match and as such they are, absolutely, in the right if they mock you and farm you.

You get farmed because you're making bad choices. Full stop. There is nowhere else, at all, the blame for that goes. Yes, FW needs a crap ton of changes. They'll never happen. Ever. In fact FW, as it is right now, is likely better than it will be after the next big 'update' PGI is planning.

If you don't want farmed quit acting like a potato. It's not hard. Everyone wants to help you. Quit stopping yourself from getting better and making the game more fun for everyone, including you.

You now have my vote for President. Don't screw it up.

[Crockdaddy]

The maps are bad. That cannot be denied. Two equal skilled teams ... the attacking team should lose each and every time if both teams are equal skilled and neither makes a mistake. The defending team has some rather dramatic advantages with the choke point management against the attacking team. That in an of itself makes the map / game mode bad. One way to off set it was to allow for a reasonable chance to win the "objective" by pushing hard on the objectives ... but now that is pretty hard to do. Much like the uber dequirkening of IS mechs while the Night Gyr and KDK-3 exist unfettered and all powerful.

[Mi Ro Ki]

This sounds like a Davion problem Mchief haha <3

[Kin3ticX]

Crockdaddy, on 28 October 2016 - 09:54 PM, said:

The maps are bad. That cannot be denied. Two equal skilled teams ... the attacking team should lose each and every time if both teams are equal skilled and neither makes a mistake. The defending team has some rather dramatic advantages with the choke point management against the attacking team. That in an of itself makes the map / game mode bad. One way to off set it was to allow for a reasonable chance to win the "objective" by pushing hard on the objectives ... but now that is pretty hard to do. Much like the uber dequirkening of IS mechs while the Night Gyr and KDK-3 exist unfettered and all powerful.

I havent played much any CW since the KDK and not even a round since the NGT

I think the direction PGI took with maps was concern over knowing the map and having open maps, so the fix was gates and chokepoints galore

I wonder how the quickplay maps will work with dropdecks, seems like it could be a mess

[BearFlag]

Kin3ticX, on 29 October 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

I wonder how the quickplay maps will work with dropdecks, seems like it could be a mess

This is actually easy to predict. Of the long list of FW problems, only one is removed by including QP modes in FW with respawn. Choke points. All the other Invasion/CA mode problems are brought over. Spawn camping, double death rate, no matchmaker, 12 man v. pugs. Some 90% refuse to play Invasion. Bringing Invasion to a different map will not yield a different result. Invasion saw a mass exodus when launched. Invasion/QP will see the same.

[meteorol]

Yeah, i'm not losing because of bad maps.

To be more precisely, they even prevent me from losing. Because they are so horrifically bad they are preventing me playing CW, at all.

[Kanil]

Do people actually blame the maps for their losses?

Personally, I complain about the maps not because I think they make me lose, but because they're just unenjoyable to play on.

[Commander A9]

Kanil, on 29 October 2016 - 12:32 PM, said:

Do people actually blame the maps for their losses?

Personally, I complain about the maps not because I think they make me lose, but because they're just unenjoyable to play on.

Some people tend to blame everything but their own abilities for losses. It's human nature.

Edited by Commander A9, 29 October 2016 - 12:45 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I would say the design that funnels solos into skittles teams are a big reason, at least my experience is that the only thing able to beat my unit is another unit that is either better or in a larger group at the time.

I get where you're coming from but I think it's a little unfair to imply that solos would start winning against good units if they only brought the right mechanism and played the right way and so on, I don't think that is true.

It's definitely true that maps aren't the reason though, but I've never actually heard anyone claim that, only that they don't like the map design, which is a completely different claim.