32 replies to this topic

[Sparrow1250]

When we are reaching the end of another challenge (as it seems at the end of most challenges), all of sudden it's like I'm facing vastly better opponents. Here I am PUGing along in tier 5 win some lose some. Actually starting to win more then lose. Then the end of a challenge comes up and it seems like I'm playing against tier 3 (or high 4) players on every drop.

If I understand the tier system correctly as a tier 5 player I shouldn't be facing tier 3 players maybe high tier 4 at times, but to get just rolled over in every drop seems odd. I have seen mentions of high tier players starting a new account and playing the lower tiers. Am I facing groups that have 6 "low tier" players and 6 higher tier so they get pushed into tier 5 matches? So then the higher tier players can rack up kills and get the loot?

And I'm not just pissing and moaning, "Oh poor me! big bad players are being mean to me!! " I'm trying to understand the mechanics of this.

Edited by Sparrow1250, 31 October 2016 - 07:23 AM.

[The Basilisk]

No what you are facing is called "bad luck"
Sorry no intention to get ironic but it realy depends on time of day, players online and mechs beeing momentarily prefered.

In Addition there are certain time frams during the month (better after release of a mech or near to ending of a challange) where ppl get tired of piloting one of the many mediocre mechs and start to drive the good ones again.

HMN is leveled with most of the ppl and now they go back to their Cheaters, Lolcusts, Skillcrows, Hunchbooms, Timbis, Whammys and Marauders.

Edited by The Basilisk, 31 October 2016 - 06:18 AM.

[jper4]

from what I recall there should be a two tier range that the matchmaker uses. so in T5 you will probably see T3 (but not tier 1 or 2) pretty often. what probably happens is that more casual players are around for the events so you get a lot more T5 or T4 players for the matchmaker to pick from. then when the event is over they vanish and the matchmaker is forced to take more players from the high end of it's selection field and so you see more T3 people around in order to get matches out in a short period of time.

technically T3 is sort of the "hell level" since one match you are with T3-T5 people and you're expected to carry, then your next match could be with T1-T3 and you're the one being carried. T1 on the other hand never has to worry about seeing anyone below T3.

that is of course until your xp bar...er PSR in theory eventually puts everyone in T1 in the end just because they've played so many matches they can't help but end up there (time to get there will vary per player but in the end everyone should get there at some point given enough matches)

[BodakOfSseth]

If I may ask, How long have you been playing?

For my own part I've noticed that the matchups can sometimes be extremely one-sided. Sunday morning, my team got rolled over (losing 5-12 or worse) in something like 7 of 10 matches. In one match, my BJ(L) did max damage of the team at around 400. Most of the rest of my team did half that or less.

I don't know the actual matching system or how it calculates, and to be sure, there are times when it fills in slots with people of different tiers - but that works both ways.

Anecdotal evidence 1: I was death-spectating a match and a big bad fresh warhawk with a withering dakka build couldn't figure out how to lead a target. At all. It was incredibly frustrating to watch him shoot at, at miss, even really big, slow moving mechs for what seemed like minutes. I can only wonder how frustrated the poor player was, as he was slowly picked apart by a series of heavies that he just couldn't hit with more than 1/4 of his shots.

Anecdotal evidence 2: I was death-spectating on our team's last survivor, an Ebon Jaguar with a cored center. He was running from 2 assaults and a medium right at the end of a base-capture game in Canyon Network. We're all certain the game is over, just waiting for it to end. He is spotted, feigning his retreat toward our base, then when out of sight, reverses direction and lures the two assaults around a corner. He kills them both within seconds of each other (they were bunched up and had some serious CT damage). Then with less than a minute on the mission timer, the other team winning on base captures, he successfully tracks down the medium and cuts him apart as well for our win.

The thing that saves my sanity the most when I'm doing my best and on a losing streak, is to take a few minutes. Look at the other mechs in the stable. Check out the trials. Fiddle with load outs. Read Metamechs. Anything to give the system a chance to get you out of that cycle and then join a new game. It seems to work fairly well. I don't have numbers, but it seems after I do that, it tends to put me in a different player group.

[The Basilisk]

No not everyone is going to be T1 onetime since Tiers are essentially comparitve structures.
Sure you accumulate PSR but others do that too....get it ?
I noticed this during introduction of the PSR system.
While my rise through T3 was pretty fast at the beginning I tuned down my frequency of gaming MWO for a time and only playing now and then.
Now I regularely get some kills and a green arrow up and stuff but the speed of my ascendence has slowed down significantly.
Reason is T3 has become a pretty big pool now and it will take some time to get through.

[The Basilisk]

No not everyone is going to be T1 onetime since Tiers are essentially comparitve structures.
Sure you accumulate PSR but others do that too....get it ?

ScottAleric, on 31 October 2016 - 06:33 AM, said:

If I may ask, How long have you been playing?

For my own part I've noticed that the matchups can sometimes be extremely one-sided. Sunday morning, my team got rolled over (losing 5-12 or worse) in something like 7 of 10 matches. In one match, my BJ(L) did max damage of the team at around 400. Most of the rest of my team did half that or less.

I don't know the actual matching system or how it calculates, and to be sure, there are times when it fills in slots with people of different tiers - but that works both ways.

Anecdotal evidence 1: I was death-spectating a match and a big bad fresh warhawk with a withering dakka build couldn't figure out how to lead a target. At all. It was incredibly frustrating to watch him shoot at, at miss, even really big, slow moving mechs for what seemed like minutes. I can only wonder how frustrated the poor player was, as he was slowly picked apart by a series of heavies that he just couldn't hit with more than 1/4 of his shots.

Anecdotal evidence 2: I was death-spectating on our team's last survivor, an Ebon Jaguar with a cored center. He was running from 2 assaults and a medium right at the end of a base-capture game in Canyon Network. We're all certain the game is over, just waiting for it to end. He is spotted, feigning his retreat toward our base, then when out of sight, reverses direction and lures the two assaults around a corner. He kills them both within seconds of each other (they were bunched up and had some serious CT damage). Then with less than a minute on the mission timer, the other team winning on base captures, he successfully tracks down the medium and cuts him apart as well for our win.

The thing that saves my sanity the most when I'm doing my best and on a losing streak, is to take a few minutes. Look at the other mechs in the stable. Check out the trials. Fiddle with load outs. Read Metamechs. Anything to give the system a chance to get you out of that cycle and then join a new game. It seems to work fairly well. I don't have numbers, but it seems after I do that, it tends to put me in a different player group.

The onesidedness is due to many factors.
The most important may be the MM just trying to match Players.
You are T4. So you will matched with max T2 and T5 but mostly T3 and T4/5.
If you got 3x T5 driving Highlanders because they where so cool in MW4 and one T2 driving his new Firestarter trollbuild with 4 Flamers and MGs and the rest is T3 and T4 players who decided they wouldld like to play "longrange builds" today while the enemy has 3 T3 driving KDK3, their T2 is driving his mastered Timberwolf and the rest decided to play meta loadouts and remotelygot an idea how to pilot them ......
Well you're screwed so bad there are no words to tell how bad.

PS: Oh yea....and dont give TOOO MUCH on metamechs.
There are some easy to understand pointers how to build mechs on the forums.
The bottom line is always keep it direct and simple.
There are some wpns out there beeing simply not good at all...but that does not mean they do not work at all ( IS - SSRM2 f.e.)

PPS: think the meta mechs guy got a LLaser fetish...not sure

PPPS: Playing since closed beta

Edited by The Basilisk, 31 October 2016 - 06:57 AM.

[Sparrow1250]

I have been playing since June of this year (2016).

[aGentleWarrior]

this tiers are annoying, i really fail in this game but like that game and play it a lot -> now i am already in tier 3 and fail more then before...

[The Basilisk]

if you got K/D around 1 (+/- 0.2) and W/L around 1 you are where you belong. The hell of inbetween.

[Tarl Cabot]

Most have covered it.

1. Population based on the day and time of day.
2. Communication and working as a unit team.
3. Mech and its load out
4. Passive (hiding/peeking) vs being aggressive as a team, pushing in instead of hanging back.
5. Positioning or lack there of (squirrel hunting)
6. Current set of Trial mechs - current IS vs Clan set (shudders)

What the end stats do not show is whether the winning team was a few shoots from being scrap or simply had their paint scratched up. Many do consider a 10/11-12 a close game, but that SCORE difference is only a close game where pieces are not being moved off the board. A 11-12 game in military terms is considered a Pyrrhic victory. If you look at the gameplay with that outlook, then you start identifying the mistakes made on each side, the opportunities missed.

Sparrow1250, on 31 October 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

I have been playing since June of this year (2016).

There are many who have been playing since 2013/14 who are still in Tier 4. PSR is like an experience bar, in that starting off new/new account one can move up quickly through the tiers but a player with lots of games under their belt, the PSR can move very slowly, lot of that is dependent on how often they play and HOW they are playing. When PSR was changed from from the ELO, it took data from Jan 2015 to Aug 2015.

Also, many tend to remember their losing streaks vs their winning streaks. If you see yourself dropping with the same people on either side, chill for 5-10 minutes before dropping again. In the end though, moving up in tiers generally means also changing how you play and the type of mechs brought and how they are equipped.

As for farming, it can be an ego thing for when a high tier player creates an alt account to wreck havoc, especially if they purchase/gift themselves a preferred mech, or if there is an effective TRIAL mech available to choose from. Think of it as going into GOD mode, but that player will quickly go from Tier 5 to Tier 4 in a few games then it is not long before they are in Tier 3. Other players will have alt accounts for different reasons, separating Clan from IS, blow off steam, challenge themselves or simply to check out Tier 5.

To put some things in perceptive, I am over a half century old (ROFL-laughing at myself), have played the boardgames, MW1-4 and the three iterations of MPBT from 1991 to 2001. But I am not a CoD type player. I play the game to have fun, win when I can, try to take down at least another with me if it is not looking well and try to learn from the mishaps (ya can teach an old dog new tricks )

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 31 October 2016 - 07:53 AM.

[BodakOfSseth]

The Basilisk, on 31 October 2016 - 06:43 AM, said:

PS: Oh yea....and dont give TOOO MUCH on metamechs.
There are some easy to understand pointers how to build mechs on the forums.

The bottom line is always keep it direct and simple.
There are some wpns out there being simply not good at all...but that does not mean they do not work at all ( IS - SSRM2 f.e.)

PPS: think the meta mechs guy got a LLaser fetish...not sure

So I started around the same time as the OP, and after 83 hours of play (if I'm reading the bar right), I'm not far from breaking into T3. I'm using it as a point of reference to check where I am in the Dunning-Kruger Effect. (That, and I would LOVE to break into analyzing the player usage data to better understand performance and so forth).

Anyway, Yes, Metamechs has a deep love for lasers, but it makes a bit of sense- After LRMs, they're the next easiest to play weapons, pinpoint damage with no leading necessary. You don't have to adjust for weapon velocity + quirks. LLasers make even more sense. They have the best combination of range, DPHeat and DPTon of the direct fire energy weapons. the only ones that beat out the various LLas are the various SmLas.

Metamechs is a good starting place, IMO. It's not gospel, but it's given me a few ideas and advice on how to run some of the chassis.

(for the life of me, I've never figured out the point of things like SSRM2 - so much weight consumed to put out so little damage; the ONLY thing I can see it's good for is heat management.)

[Koniving]

Sparrow1250, on 31 October 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

When we are reaching the end of another challenge (as it seems at the end of most challenges), all of sudden it's like I'm facing vastly better opponents. Here I am PUGing along in tier 5 win some lose some. Actually starting to win more then lose. Then the end of a challenge comes up and it seems like I'm playing against tier 3 (or high 4) players on every drop.

If I understand the tier system correctly as a tier 5 player I shouldn't be facing tier 3 players maybe high tier 4 at times, but to get just rolled over in every drop seems odd. I have seen mentions of high tier players starting a new account and playing the lower tiers. Am I facing groups that have 6 "low tier" players and 6 higher tier so they get pushed into tier 5 matches? So then the higher tier players can rack up kills and get the loot?

And I'm not just pissing and moaning, "Oh poor me! big bad players are being mean to me!! " I'm trying to understand the mechanics of this.

Farming is an exceptionally valuable way to agriculturally grow food....

As for butchering....


Anyway welcome to MWO.
As a Tier 5 player you will see tier 5 as much as possible, tier 4 pretty often and low tier 3 around 5 to 25% of the time depending on the server and the hour (when server populations are low you will see them much more often, so like 2 am on a US server? Yeah....)

On dealing with potential steamrolls, remember that what causes them is a superiority advantage. If both sides have twelve players each and one side loses three players right off the bat, a steamroll is likely to start. Be careful of getting isolated and try to reign in players that wander off.
"Stalker in E5, I know only one enemy is on sensors but i have visual you are heading toward five enemies, that's 430 tons of **** to step in without support. Advise you meet with us in D3 and we'll push them together."

There are a number of things you can do, some of which are covered under tip #1 on this thread.
http://mwomercs.com/...al-tips-to-mwo/

Good luck out there and if you have the speed or if the enemy just has the speed, nothing says you can't break someone's leg to turn the tide of battle.

[Koniving]

ScottAleric, on 31 October 2016 - 08:22 AM, said:

(for the life of me, I've never figured out the point of things like SSRM2 - so much weight consumed to put out so little damage; the ONLY thing I can see it's good for is heat management.)

Skip to 6:30 and watch from there. It may become clear.

Skip to 6 minutes in... another example.


Beyond this they are especially useful in groups of two or more to deal with enemy light mechs, especially for mechs with low maneuverability.


In MWO they are also handy for locating weaknesses in enemy armor.

[BodakOfSseth]

Koniving, on 31 October 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

Skip to 6:30 and watch from there. It may become clear.

...maybe not. It could be I'm just dense.

Quote

Skip to 6 minutes in... another example.
Beyond this they are especially useful in groups of two or more to deal with enemy light mechs, especially for mechs with low maneuverability.

That makes sense. A back up weapon to deal with lights that can out maneuver you - assuming you have some extra tonnage to dedicate.

Quote

In MWO they are also handy for locating weaknesses in enemy armor.

...or apparently making them.

So really, in this video you're talking about spamming them. Which is good in heavies and assaults, I guess, because they have the armor to deal with all that face time you're committing to. You just have to have the speed to keep them relevant.


Scott Aleric: Thread Hijacking Master.
(sorry, OP)

Edited by ScottAleric, 31 October 2016 - 09:29 AM.

[Tarl Cabot]

Quote

Anyway, Yes, Metamechs has a deep love for lasers,

And metamechs with their energy payload is aimed primarily for the long range fights before it becomes a brawl, and tend to be geared generally more for Group/Faction Play on the heavier mechs, where as for lights and many mediums it is primarily energy/srms. With lasers there is the instant contact or move beam to get on target and stay there vs ballistics which have a lower velocity (than initial setup) with travel time and are ammo dependent. The other side is the heat buildup.

Also, when switching to Clan mechs, do not treat cERML like the isML but more like a shorter range isLL, and be prepared to go into chain fire.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 31 October 2016 - 10:48 AM.

[Bohxim]

aGentleWarrior, on 31 October 2016 - 07:11 AM, said:

this tiers are annoying, i really fail in this game but like that game and play it a lot -> now i am already in tier 3 and fail more then before...

Unfortunately you're in a place many people call 't3 hell ' it's the 1 spot you are suddenly consistently thrown into games with many t1 pilots. Whilst there are some t1 pilots who got there via sheer number of games, there are some who can shred your torso off in 1-2 hits or constantly hit you with pinpoint damage while being unseen due to good map knowledge and piloting experience. It is the place you experience heLL but at the same time best place to learn good team movement and effective trades

Hang in there mate

[S 0 L E N Y A]

In re: meta mechs.

All the builds and concepts are sound. The biggest issue is do you as a pilot understand the build how to make the most of it?

That is the real kicker.

[General Solo]

Farming is often an unintended consequence in games with opponents who have a large difference in RELATIVE game skill and game knowledge.

It just happens that way

The reason why their can be a difference in RELATIVE game knowledge between opponents is due to the fact that this game has a HUGE FREAKING LEARNING CURVE compared to a lot of games like COD for example.

And their is no 150 page Tome that you can read to bring you up to speed, but knowledge is scattered on the Etherweb available to those interested and dedicated enough to search for it.

So people in the know are able to have a much greater effectiveness compared to novices.

And people won't go easy on you just because your a novice, Its a combat game on the internet, human nature and all that.

Which makes fighting people without that knowledge easy to the pilots with that knowledge; and therefore farming occurs.

I'll just repeat what I said earlier to raise another point.

"Farming is often an unintended consequence in games with opponents who have a large difference in RELATIVE game skill and game knowledge."

So far I covered differences in game knowledge but not differences in RELATIVE game skill.

That's a whole other Tome.

[Leone]

Boogie138, on 31 October 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

All the builds and concepts are sound.

Eh, not really. Most of em are built for a sort of stand offish snipe fest that I just don't do. They're horribly designed for a brawl where all the real fighting happens. Large lasers are one of the least efficient weapons for heat and tonnage to damage.

~Leone.

[S 0 L E N Y A]

Leone, on 31 October 2016 - 07:02 PM, said:

Eh, not really. Most of em are built for a sort of stand offish snipe fest that I just don't do. They're horribly designed for a brawl where all the real fighting happens. Large lasers are one of the least efficient weapons for heat and tonnage to damage.

Please re-read my post, then read your own response again.

Or allow me to clarify:

So YOU cannot make the most of them. How does YOUR inability to do something make it less viable?

Edited by Boogie138, 31 October 2016 - 07:22 PM.