31 replies to this topic

[Tristan Winter]

It's kind of embarassing to keep starting new threads all the time, but... here I go anyway. I'm bored, so sue me.

Question:
Would you say that the Inner Sphere and Clan mechs have significantly different playstyles? If so, what are the differences?

Digression follows:

Spoiler

It's really a pity that QP teams aren't faction specific. In a dream world, I would like to see QP as IS vs IS, Clans vs Clans or IS vs Clans, in every match. Never mixed teams. And I would like to see the world championship as faction specific too. So if the Lords pick the Clans as their faction, they would have to only play Clan mechs in the championship. But that's a bit of a digression.

In Star Craft, with the famous trinity of Terrans vs Zergs vs Protoss, each faction has specific strengths and weaknesses. The units are different, so they play differently. This is fairly common for RTS games. You see it a little bit in MMORPGs as well, but not quite as much. And you see it in some F2P combat sim games like Star Conflict (and maybe WOT and Warthunder, though I can't really say much about that).

So in other games, if you pick faction A, your units generally have more speed at the expense of durability, if you pick faction B, your units have more durability, but less speed, for example. And typically, the official game website will have some kind of breakdown that helps new players pick their faction. Is there anything like that in MWO? If a new player asked for a breakdown of Clan vs IS, how would you present it?

IS mechs are more durable, except they have fragile XL engines? So IS mechs are actually more fragile, and slower, but have more firepower? Except that IS light mechs and medium mechs are often faster? Is there even any useful way of providing a general description of the differences? If all matches were IS vs Clans, how would teams play differently?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

In general it really is determined not just on a per mech basis, but per build basis. I'll just base this all off their potential rather than an actual build because of that.

IS has the potential to be the tankiest due to high structure quirks and standard engines. Clan has the potential for highest firepower due to abundances of energy hardpoints, higher damage weapons, and double tapping ACs. IS weaponry is more precise, runs cooler, and is heavier. Clan Weaponry does more damage at longer ranges at the cost of being more easy to spread and running hotter. IS mechs running XLs die on a side torso loss, but (often) have very high structure quirks that can entirely outweigh that when damage is properly spread.

Speeds for clan lights are often slower, speeds for clan mediums are about equal though sometimes faster, speeds for clan heavies are slightly faster on average, speeds for clan assaults are also often faster. Though I'm just going off rough average estimates of common builds.

Basically its complex and can't just be boiled down into something that is actually accurately able to represent all the mechs of a faction.

[roboPrancer]

The IS mechs that are quirk heavy are generally optimized towards a specific playstyle, determined by those quirks. In that respect I consider them to be much less noob friendly. Clan mechs, in my opinion, are much more flexible due to clan xl engines and clan tech weapon ranges, Omni pods etc.

I don't see any different play styles between the two but I definitely think that clan mechs are better for new players

[Tristan Winter]

Dakota1000, on 03 November 2016 - 06:17 AM, said:

Basically its complex and can't just be boiled down into something that is actually accurately able to represent all the mechs of a faction.

So in a typical Clan vs IS match (QP, not FP) the differences between factions would be too complex to describe? In other words, there is no typical Clan vs IS match, because the options for customizations are so many?

I'm asking because we discussed poptarts in another thread, and it seems to me that Clans have better poptarts right now. But do they have better hillhumpers in general, thanks to the HBK IIC, Kodiak, Night Gyr, Summoner, etc? I don't know.

Could you pick any kind of playstyle with either faction? Could you make a fast brawler team with pinpoint accuracy as easily with Clans as with IS, for example?

[Bandilly]

In my experience in FP as IS you want to force a brawl. With more durability and cooler weapons the IS is generally better in that environment.

With more fragile longer ranged hotter running mechs it's more advantageous for Clans to get into prolonged sniper battles.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Tristan Winter, on 03 November 2016 - 06:27 AM, said:

So in a typical Clan vs IS match (QP, not FP) the differences between factions would be too complex to describe? In other words, there is no typical Clan vs IS match, because the options for customizations are so many?

I'm asking because we discussed poptarts in another thread, and it seems to me that Clans have better poptarts right now. But do they have better hillhumpers in general, thanks to the HBK IIC, Kodiak, Night Gyr, Summoner, etc? I don't know.

Could you pick any kind of playstyle with either faction? Could you make a fast brawler team with pinpoint accuracy as easily with Clans as with IS, for example?

You can really pick any playstyle and either faction will have a mech that can do it in some capacity, though IS and Clans are mixed on strong suits in either department and even with the same playstyle the two factions will have some differences. I'll just list off some playstyles and some mechs and some summaries.

Assault Brawler:
IS: Atlas
-Extreme tanking ability, decent cooling, slow speed, high alpha, frontloaded damage, pinpoint AC20, spread SRMs
Clan: Executioner
-High Speed, high damage split between volleys, no frontloaded damage, no autospreading weapons
Clan: KDK-SB
-High Tanking, high speed, high alpha, mostly frontloaded damage, no pinpoint AC.

Heavy Skirmisher:
IS: Warhammer (either running dual AC10+4ml build or dual LPL+ML builds or something of similar range profile)
-High potential durability via structure quirks, XL vulnerability, mostly symmetrical build focused on even damage spread.
Clan: Hellbringer (6 ERML, 6 MPL, or 2LPL+3ERML build)
-Lower potential durability, ECM, no XL vulnerability, asymmetrical build focused on deadsiding.

Medium Poptart:
IS: Vindicator
-Godly quirks, XL vulnerability, low mounts, high jump capability, low heat per shot
IS: BlackJack
-Great quirks, XL vulnerability, high mounts
Clan: Shadow Cat
-Weak quirks, high jump capability, high mounts, high heat per shot
Clan: Hunchback IIC
-No quirks, high mounts, can fit enough heatsinks to better handle heat, but still somewhat hotter than IS mechs

Light corner poker
IS: Locust/Spider
-low firepower, high refire rate, extremely high quirks, extremely high speed, mid range
Clan: Adder/Kitfox
-High firepower, low speed, decent quirks, build options for any range.

There's so many things each mech in the game can do and so many mechs that I could be listing these for a month.

[El Bandito]

Clans do have better poptarts, thanks to HBK-IIC-A, Gyrs, new Summoners, and Timbies.

IS has the edge in... lurming, thanks to FLD lurms with quirks.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 November 2016 - 07:27 AM.

[Bandilly]

El Bandito, on 03 November 2016 - 07:26 AM, said:

IS has the edge in... lurming, thanks to FLD lurms with quirks.

This I would agree with. IS is generally behind in the ranged combat arena, but IS LRM launchers have significantly better and faster firing patterns, which combined with quirks become overwhelmingly better than the Clan equivalents.

[nehebkau]

If I am fighting as an IS vs a clan mech of similar size, I will usually push them hard to get them to overheat.

If I am Clan fighting an IS mech I will peek and poke more.

[Pariah Devalis]

Tristan Winter, on 03 November 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

It's kind of embarassing to keep starting new threads all the time, but... here I go anyway. I'm bored, so sue me.

Question:
Would you say that the Inner Sphere and Clan mechs have significantly different playstyles? If so, what are the differences?

Digression follows:

Spoiler

It's really a pity that QP teams aren't faction specific. In a dream world, I would like to see QP as IS vs IS, Clans vs Clans or IS vs Clans, in every match. Never mixed teams. And I would like to see the world championship as faction specific too. So if the Lords pick the Clans as their faction, they would have to only play Clan mechs in the championship. But that's a bit of a digression.

In Star Craft, with the famous trinity of Terrans vs Zergs vs Protoss, each faction has specific strengths and weaknesses. The units are different, so they play differently. This is fairly common for RTS games. You see it a little bit in MMORPGs as well, but not quite as much. And you see it in some F2P combat sim games like Star Conflict (and maybe WOT and Warthunder, though I can't really say much about that).

So in other games, if you pick faction A, your units generally have more speed at the expense of durability, if you pick faction B, your units have more durability, but less speed, for example. And typically, the official game website will have some kind of breakdown that helps new players pick their faction. Is there anything like that in MWO? If a new player asked for a breakdown of Clan vs IS, how would you present it?

IS mechs are more durable, except they have fragile XL engines? So IS mechs are actually more fragile, and slower, but have more firepower? Except that IS light mechs and medium mechs are often faster? Is there even any useful way of providing a general description of the differences? If all matches were IS vs Clans, how would teams play differently?

Related, but not strictly on topic to the OP:

I feel like there would be more fight style variety for factions, but a couple things need to happen.

1. More mech packs. Seriously. This is actually important to the next bit.
2. Faction specific mechs or variants of mechs. Think a MUL, which lists common mech chassis any given faction would utilize. Having enough faction specific mech or variant variety is key, here.
3. A soft penalty system that punishes players for taking a mech or variant outside of their specific faction's MUL, but does not lock them out of anything. For example, a tonnage penalty (take a mech outside of the MUL and it counts as one weight class heavier, or 10 tons heavier in CW than it actually is).

Doing it this way, you'd have factions with specific strengths. For example, the Wolves would have the Linebacker/Timber Wolf, Ice Ferret, Executioner, and Fire Moth (if only), meaning they would be better at fast strikes. Built around high speed and mobility, at the sacrifice of raw damage outside of a handful of mechs, such as the Direwolf. Meanwhile, a Clan like the Smoke Jaguars would have things like the Direwolf, Ebon Jaguar, Stormcrow, and Arctic Cheetah, meaning they generally trade speed for firepower. Nothing stops either faction from taking, say, a Summoner or a (again, if only) Fire Falcon, if they wanted to, but being non-standard mechs for their particular faction, they would end up a little under-toned as a result.

This is even easier to translate to the Inner Sphere, as the IS has the bulk of the mech designs. They even have mechs who have one variant favored in one House and another variant favored by another.

You'd create units and Clans with distinctive mechs, and distinctive pros and cons. Some would be better for harassment. Others better for digging into a line and holding it. Others would have a more balanced blend that is good at a lot but not great at any one thing.

Edited by Pariah Devalis, 03 November 2016 - 08:33 AM.

[Davegt27]

Quote

Question:
Would you say that the Inner Sphere and Clan mechs have significantly different playstyles? If so, what are the differences?

with the exception of streak missiles I would say no

the two sides are have no significant difference, when CW started out there was a big difference and you had to play to
the strengths of your faction

but the many nerfs and a whole lot of crying changed the game
the lead dev Paul even said they wanted both sides to be the same (balance)

at this point in the game tactics and sides are pretty much the same

[Bombast]

Well, obviously the play style of Clan mechs is lame, while the play style of Inner Sphere mechs is awesome.

Not that I've played any clan mechs, of course. Because they're lame.

[Felicitatem Parco]

Bandilly, on 03 November 2016 - 08:03 AM, said:

This I would agree with. IS is generally behind in the ranged combat arena, but IS LRM launchers have significantly better and faster firing patterns, which combined with quirks become overwhelmingly better than the Clan equivalents.

I kind of disagree, since Clan LRMs weigh half as much and the magic of Clan XL, you can have Clan LRM boats with much more equipment, ammo, speed, and survivability than an IS LRM boat of equal weight. Just as an example, my Night Gyr has 3 LRM20's, two LRM15's, TAG, ERLL, 10 tons ammo, 4 JJ's, Active Probe, and can survive a side torso loss (although it does move at the speed of a 100t Mech with a 400 engine). It's my current LRM boat of choice, and not even in the assault class despite all that equipment

Edited by Prosperity Park, 03 November 2016 - 09:12 AM.

[Bandilly]

Prosperity Park, on 03 November 2016 - 09:08 AM, said:

I kind of disagree, since Clan LRMs weigh half as much and the magic of Clan XL, you can have Clan LRM boats with much more equipment, ammo, speed, and survivability than an IS LRM boat of equal weight. Just as an example, my Night Gyr has 3 LRM20's, two LRM15's, TAG, ERLL, 10 tons ammo, 4 JJ's, Active Probe, and can survive a side torso loss (although it does move at the speed of a 100t Mech with a 400 engine). It's my current LRM boat of choice, and not even in the assault class despite all that equipment

A Catapult is the same speed but 10 tons lighter and only takes fractionally longer to drop the same 10 tons of missiles with less than half the tubes (4xLRM10), I'm sure better builds are out there. An Awesome is 5 tons heavier and can't quite get up to that speed, but it can drop 12 tons of ammo in about the same time (4xLRM15) it takes that Night Gyr to use 10. IS LRM launchers might weigh more but they have higher base DPS and are usually combined with 10/15/20/30% cooldown quirks.

[Deathlike]

In theory, if there were a mentality to put down what you think should differentiate Clan vs IS... balance could be better determined... but the reality is that balance is done through random changes so even while something like a Vindicator is quirked to the brim, it doesn't do anything better than something else comparable (with whatever criteria you put on it).

Ideally, Clans would require more skill (longer duration, cooldown, increased spread, etc.), but gain more firepower (more damage/DPS and range). IS would have better equipment, even if it wasn't as efficient or compact as the Clans do.

For instance, the IS ERPPC would be massively faster than the Clan ERPPC. IS SRMs would have a significantly better SRM cluster than Clans. Basically lots of things would be more efficient for the IS, even while the tonnage benefits exist for Clans.

It wouldn't be perfect, and while we kinda have that, it could be better (like MGs, Gauss, CAP/BAP, ECM, NARC, etc.). It's not really quite there yet and that's kind of the core problem with balance.

The poptart answer is a lot more complicated, mostly because there hasn't been any mech as of late on the IS side that is comparable, and ironically ignored (thanks to our balance overlord) so these things haven't really been considered or thought through.

I would say if you wanted to see a difference in "viable/decent options", you'd have to list out builds/mechs/concepts that favor one side and see if there's a "fair enough" comparable option on the other side. It's just that isn't really the case on the IS side for poptarting and Clan XL is part of it... but also the options really suck (PPC Vindicators are not comparably good, no matter how some may pretend otherwise).

Edited by Deathlike, 03 November 2016 - 10:44 AM.

[Kuaron]

roboPrancer, on 03 November 2016 - 06:25 AM, said:

The IS mechs that are quirk heavy are generally optimized towards a specific playstyle, determined by those quirks. In that respect I consider them to be much less noob friendly. Clan mechs, in my opinion, are much more flexible due to clan xl engines and clan tech weapon ranges, Omni pods etc. I don't see any different play styles between the two but I definitely think that clan mechs are better for new players

I disagree.
The flexibility of Omnimechs becomes valuable when you know what you want. Before you do it is more convenient to be pointed towards an optimal type of weapons than to have all the freedom and no quirks in return.
At least this is how I felt several months ago.

[Tristan Winter]

Deathlike, on 03 November 2016 - 10:41 AM, said:

In theory, if there were a mentality to put down what you think should differentiate Clan vs IS... balance could be better determined... but the reality is that balance is done through random changes so even while something like a Vindicator is quirked to the brim, it doesn't do anything better than something else comparable (with whatever criteria you put on it).

Yeah, this is the key problem, in my mind. PGI never had a vision for what the Clans should be like, relative to the Inner Sphere mechs already in the game. They just tried to make them equally powerful, in different ways.

[Deathlike]

Tristan Winter, on 03 November 2016 - 04:24 PM, said:

Yeah, this is the key problem, in my mind. PGI never had a vision for what the Clans should be like, relative to the Inner Sphere mechs already in the game. They just tried to make them equally powerful, in different ways.

It is as if they didn't have a plan....

[visionGT4]

Same as any game with a easy / hard mode difficulty selector.
Clan technically superior regardless of any variables.
IS approaches parity under specific conditions.

[a gaijin]

Tristan Winter, on 03 November 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

Question:
Would you say that the Inner Sphere and Clan mechs have significantly different playstyles? If so, what are the differences?

My knowledge of this subject stems from the 52 or so BattleTech novels I have and also MechWarrior 2, Ghost Bear's Legacy, and MW2 Mercenaries.

A little (well known) background info on the two techs.

Spoiler

Clans are centered around fighting "efficiently" and minimizing waste (hence the Batchall).
Clan weapons have used miniaturization technology to make the components smaller in physical size yet able to have a longer range and sometime higher damage as well. In MWO this has translated to lasers having a longer 'burn' time and also producing more internal heat.

Inner Sphere is simply centered around "destruction of the ALL enemies with what we have, here and now." IS weaponry is based on antiquated technology, so it doesn't have the range of the Clans and the weapon systems are physically larger. But they are all based on "tried and true" tech, they tend to recycle faster, laser 'burn' time is shorter for the full amount of damage, the weapons run cooler, and in some cases are just more efficient (regular Auto-cannons).

Yes, Clans and IS have two very distinctly different playstyles.

Regarding the lore of the differences:

Spoiler

The Clans are about using the least amount of forces possible to quickly and efficiently finish battles with as little destruction as possible, minimizing waste to maximize salvage. Hence fighting at range and rules of conduct like Zellbriggen.

The IS Forces are about throwing everything they can at an enemy and blowing as much shi-it up as fast as possible and seeing what's left when the smoke clears.
"Kill em all and let God sort em out."

The weapon systems are balanced well enough in MWO but regarding lore-based Clan and Inner Sphere fighting styles in MWO... I don't find it achievable because I never see two people allowed to actually accomplish, for example, a no-shít 1v1 duel in the middle of team deathmatch.

Puggers just have no respect for that. There's a kind of blood lust that sets in when people see a cherry red mech limping across the battlefield and it seems like everyone on the team just goes completely MENTAL trying to get the killing shot.

But basically brawling is a good fit for IS. Clans make better snipers with the exception of a few good brawlers like the Timber Wolf.

To talk about IS VS Clan "Quick Play" Pug drops, I'd personally love if there was an optional Check Box we could select on the match maker for sorting teams into "Clan VS IS" matches.
But it should be Two Stars (10) VS a Company (12).
The MM should also allow for One Star Vs Two Lances.

On the subject of the MM, if there aren't enough people available to fill (for example) a full 12v12 Tier 1 match, the option should be available to either allow for smaller teams (4v4 on up) for those who want it.

I also wouldn't mind if sometimes matches were set up that had for example, four Tier 1's versus 12 Tier 5's. Now that might be a terrible idea, but then again maybe not.
How about eight~nine Tier 3 VS five Tier 1? Good challenge/learning tool? Or just a bad idea?