84 replies to this topic

[DaZur]

GRiPSViGiL, on 04 November 2016 - 07:45 PM, said:

Let me know when PGI acknowledges their failures and admits they can't provide what was originally promise concerning MWO with a a sliver of remorse and I might think about mitigating my hostility.

If you're officially waiting for PGI to meekly wonder up, flash big ol' doe eyes at you and sheepishly acknowledge they've been fools for biting off more than they could chew but being prideful, refused to admit it... I don't have any magic words to salve the sting you're dealing with.

[DaZur]

TLBFestus, on 04 November 2016 - 07:53 PM, said:

First and foremost, for anything in this thread to be relevant, Russ Bullock needs to have a change of heart with regard to listening to community opinions and suggestions. That doesn't mean he/PGI has to do anything, or agree every time, but they have to LISTEN. If they listen, most of us would have no problem being told "No, not going to happen because X".

Unless that happens, the rest of this thread is just more urinating into the wind as usual.

Absolutely... as previously stated, PGI owns the bulk of this initiative. One I'd honestly be willing to try and set in motion.

That said, for commons grounds, there needs to be some agreement in terms of what folks qualify as "listening to community opinions and suggestions". I say this because a lot of folks equate listening to "immediately acknowledging (personally and or publicly) and putting forth in development".

Let's be clear... this community has put forth a LOT of extremely good ideas and suggestions. Conversely, there has been some extremely hair-brained ones too.

Affirmation that not every idea and suggestion is a good one and not every idea or suggestion is deserving of an acknowledgment or response is a step in the right direction. Sadly, there's members who believe to the contrary...

Edited by DaZur, 04 November 2016 - 08:09 PM.

[Peter2k]

Not passionate about mwo any more

It's replaced by
Meh
Sure core combat is fun, so I still play
But I'm not getting my hopes up about MWO be more than it is now
Endless team death match on a handful of maps
Usually mining and HPG


This endless "wait for mech con" is breeding more negativity then is the norm in GD
Again all the problems are made in house

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 07:54 PM, said:

If you're officially waiting for PGI to meekly wonder up, flash big ol' doe eyes at you and sheepishly acknowledge they've been fools for biting off more than they could chew but being prideful, refused to admit it... I don't have any magic words to salve the sting you're dealing with.

I want PGI to pick a direction and stick with it

Novakaine, on 04 November 2016 - 06:18 PM, said:

Aerotech is coming...........

Well at least you're persistent ;-)

[Bud Crue]

Peter2k, on 04 November 2016 - 08:43 PM, said:

Not passionate about mwo any more

It's replaced by
Meh
Sure core combat is fun, so I still play
But I'm not getting my hopes up about MWO be more than it is now
Endless team death match on a handful of maps
Usually mining and HPG

This endless "wait for mech con" is breeding more negativity then is the norm in GD
Again all the problems are made in house

I want PGI to pick a direction and stick with it

This. A thousand times this.

Sigh.

[DaZur]

I dunno kids... I just don't know...

This was nothing more than a quasi-impassioned plea for BOTH parties (them and us) to effectively get over themselves, dispense with the juvenile bravado and misplaced hubris and try to re-negotiate the terms of our mutual relationship.

While some of you believe me to be pissing into the wind or attempting to cast dispersion from afar... The reality is, I truly enjoy playing this game, love the IP and have gained many global internet friends in the process. Long and short, I don't want to see this game die on the vine because both the devs and the player base turn their collective backs on each other because neither has the brains or the balls to admit they've treated each other like crap.

in hindsight, I almost wish I didn't start this topic... I guess I am pissing in the wind.

[TLBFestus]

Sadly, the chances of Russ &Co. pulling an about face and seriously trying to start a new dialog with the community are about zero. All they'd have to do is take a page from the HBS forums and have an "Ask the Devs" forum like they run, and have one guy in charge of it.

If you read that sub-forum at HBS you will see that they have an "Answer Guy" that is frank, open, and often blunt. He tries to answer most questions and doesn't beat around the bush. It works.

What to me is the saddest/strangest part is that if you look at this from a distance we, the community, have less to lose than PGI.

Honestly.....suppose the game shuts down. What do we the players have to lose? A game. That's it, ....a game. We'll find others, move along, spend our money elsewhere.

PGI on the other hand will lose their income, which I would have thought would be a pretty damned big motivating factor for them. I suppose they will find another way to carry on, despite their tattered and tarnished reputation, but they will have killed the golden goose. The only other way to look at it is that PGI and RB don't really give 2 pucks and simply want to milk every last drop out of the game that they can, and that explains why they don't seemingly give a darn about "listening" to anyone.

[BLOOD WOLF]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:

in hindsight, I almost wish I didn't start this topic... I guess I am pissing in the wind.

I did enjoy reading your opening and some of the post in here. The ones that where constructive at least, so it's not all pissing in the wind

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 04 November 2016 - 10:34 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

-Immersion of Maps for example ...maps thats looking "Wow ...Thats Battletech!" ...large Spaceports with waiting Union Dropships, Militray Equipment ...Maps with Military Bases and assets, a Airfield with parking Shilone AS Fighters ...in the Moment all maps looks like every SF/near future Universe...only Tourmaline has a destroyed Dropship and a little BT Immersion..Assets thats later is using in Pve/Coop Missions

-Stop this large KMDD events to buy Mechs ...short events for 1-3 days and not every Weekend,and not Events with the new mech as Prime Target

-Build new maps for CW -Hesperus not Dune , giving the maps tactical Variations -more like Polar and not 2-3way Maps

-more restrictions for Drops in FP (only 3 Mechs of each Class for example)
-Logistic for FP -Droproutes-Flighttimes-Factorys for special Chassies and Ammunition-only thats Mechs of the Planet ,thats you can land of it
seeing the FP from old Leagues from MW4 like MBO
-Solaris/Pve Missions/Pve FP Missions -Elements Mode for all thats not have fun, to fight by Eventdays or in Groups against Hight tier Groups in training Days or have the time for FP, or only train the Experience for fight later in PvP

sorry for my bad English

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 04 November 2016 - 11:23 PM.

[Hunka Junk]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 07:27 PM, said:

For clarity, I'm not inferring anyone should forget the past. Apparently, despite trying to make that clear in my opening preface it was not made clear enough... What I'm saying is at some point we need to accept reality and address the here and now.

Yes, for all intent and purpose the four pillars are dead (for the moment). Expectation of these pillars to suddenly re-materialize and be embedded in the existing framework is irrational and illogical. It's not part of the present patterned design philosophy.

That said... I'm not saying the pillars cannot or will not be implemented at some later juncture. I'm saying, that bearing into consideration the existing infrastructure and the direction present proposed development outlines, Pillars are not in the cards "right now". No, I'm not saying "forget about the pillars"... I'm saying "forget about the pillars right now".

I'm as frustrated with this being the sad reality as much as anyone... I wanted the space opera / battlemach sim proposed. That said, I'm practical enough to resign that for the moment it's not part of the discussion regarding the immediate future. I have not written it off... But I'm also not hanging all present and future decisions on it being resurrected.

I'm not saying let go of your dreams... I'm saying, keeps your dreams but don't let the fact they have not manifested to interfere with your ability to enjoy life and function in the here and now.

Absolutely... PGI had the largest part in terms of effecting change and fostering a real and functional dev / customer environment. That said, we have to acknowledge we play a role nurturing that environment. We do that by re-assessing our expectations based on the "here and now" and mitigate the hostilities.

The common theme of 95% of your posts is that people should stop saying these negative things. When you show up in a thread, it's usually to cast aspersions on 'bittervets'. Your goal is to silence critics.

To be fair, you're not openly hostile about it like some. Your brain isn't made of eggplant, like at least one. And I understand that, for you, you think the way forward is to "move on". However, the central pillar to your notion of moving on is to silence critics.

How about this: nope.

The devs need to move on to meaningful new content that is not mech packs or reworks, I'll be quiet. And I'm not talking 5 minutes of meaningful new content next month. I mean a year of moving on with regular progress made in the game and new content that doesn't get pulled 1 week to 2 months later because it was released without an oodle of playtesting (minimap, long tom, minimap II).

And, right along with it, you don't help things to move along by offering binary logic about how we must accept new mechs as new content. Silencing critics in the face of gross incompetence is not progress.

Edited by Hunka Junk, 04 November 2016 - 11:27 PM.

[Johnny Z]

TLBFestus, on 04 November 2016 - 10:29 PM, said:

Sadly, the chances of Russ &Co. pulling an about face and seriously trying to start a new dialog with the community are about zero. All they'd have to do is take a page from the HBS forums and have an "Ask the Devs" forum like they run, and have one guy in charge of it.

If you read that sub-forum at HBS you will see that they have an "Answer Guy" that is frank, open, and often blunt. He tries to answer most questions and doesn't beat around the bush. It works.

What to me is the saddest/strangest part is that if you look at this from a distance we, the community, have less to lose than PGI.

Honestly.....suppose the game shuts down. What do we the players have to lose? A game. That's it, ....a game. We'll find others, move along, spend our money elsewhere.

PGI on the other hand will lose their income, which I would have thought would be a pretty damned big motivating factor for them. I suppose they will find another way to carry on, despite their tattered and tarnished reputation, but they will have killed the golden goose. The only other way to look at it is that PGI and RB don't really give 2 pucks and simply want to milk every last drop out of the game that they can, and that explains why they don't seemingly give a darn about "listening" to anyone.

What are they going to pull and about face about? You and few negative trolls making up fictionary complaints.

MechWarrior Online is a good game, everyone agrees the game play is good and the entire game has only improved since launch. Some valid complaints about mech packs being the only content players get and there should have been other additions to go along with those, but anything else is just made up complaints.

I am not going to bother listing the MASSIVE list of improvements.

If Mech Con is epic and a lot of great announcements are made then the troll brigade will just piss on that to.

Well I hope it doesn't ruin the fun to much because theres going to be great improvements to the game to enjoy for anyone who isn't sucked in by the negativity.

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 November 2016 - 12:57 AM.

[Hunka Junk]

Johnny Z, on 04 November 2016 - 11:42 PM, said:

What are they going to pull and about face about? You and few negative trolls making up fictionary complaints.

I think his post is pretty clear: an about face re: community dialogue

Did you see our community manager just buzz the forums? She'll be back in a week. A month?

[Johnny Z]

Hunka Junk, on 04 November 2016 - 11:48 PM, said:

I think his post is pretty clear: an about face re: community dialogue

Did you see our community manager just buzz the forums? She'll be back in a week. A month?

I always learned to worry more about what I am doing than others. You don't know what someone elses job entails.

Your comments have some merit about lack of content but try and stay real.

By the way as a wild guess that job most difficult part is probly managing all the forum mods and other mods. Just a guess. Maybe its unrelated I really don't know.

Edited by Johnny Z, 04 November 2016 - 11:58 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:

I dunno kids... I just don't know...

This was nothing more than a quasi-impassioned plea for BOTH parties (them and us) to effectively get over themselves, dispense with the juvenile bravado and misplaced hubris and try to re-negotiate the terms of our mutual relationship.

While some of you believe me to be pissing into the wind or attempting to cast dispersion from afar... The reality is, I truly enjoy playing this game, love the IP and have gained many global internet friends in the process. Long and short, I don't want to see this game die on the vine because both the devs and the player base turn their collective backs on each other because neither has the brains or the balls to admit they've treated each other like crap.

in hindsight, I almost wish I didn't start this topic... I guess I am pissing in the wind.

Good notion Dazur, I am also often surprised at how little pragmatic people are... but you know... not that I am religious or anything, but there used to be a man walking this earth who told people that it would be nice if they would be decent to each other, love your fellow man and stuff, and we nailed him to a cross.

Good luck!

[Davers]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

This is not a discussion surrounding how badly PGI has performed to date. It's irrefutable that they have offered up several stillborn ideas and have failed on many fronts. No, this is a discussion about establishing expectations moving forward and how we, particular veterans, need to reestablish our baseline and adjust our expectations.

To be clear... I'm not inferring we need to forget the past lest we risk repeating it. I'm offering the reality that clinging to past transgressions is unhealthy in any relationship.

One: Let's establish the harsh reality that the four pillars we were sold way back in the beginning are now irrelevant. That boat sailed long ago with the veer to esport'esk endeavors. Pining over what could have been, is an exercise in frustration. With the present development team and the framework already essentially laid, returning to those pillars is functionally unrealistic.

Two: In any live production environment, the project can and will morph into various shades of the original design concept. To include omission of previously discussed features, modification of existing features and concessions beyond previously discussed changes. Let's drop the pseudo-adolescent inference that everything discussed is a promise that cannot be broken or amended... This is not how real world works and most definitely is not the world of software development.

Three - Being practical / realistic: Let's be honest... We all would not be here if there was not something about MWO, regardless of how small and pedantic it may be that we enjoy about MWO. With that reality, let's dispense with pie-in-the-sky expectations (For the immediate future) and establish real, attainable goals for MWO, this community and this developer. Ya can't get from point A to point B without first taking a step...

Lastly, bearing into consideration the above three baselines, how can we dispense with all the snark, derision, and vitriol and create an environment that might be conducive to re-establishing a non-combative relationship with PGI with an end-goal of having frank and honest discussion about the direction of MWO. Yes, I understand this requires PGI coming to the table and behaving like adults. Conversely, this goes for us as well. Like my mother loved to share with me and my siblings... It takes two to fight.

Question to the community: "Can we overcome our preexisting bias, adjust our expectations and collectively move forward, or are we destine to continue to foster and propagate the existing dystopian environment and drive this game and this community to an early exit"?

Thoughts?

Step One. PGI makes a clear statement about the direction of MWO.

If, we the players, are supposed to be willing to ignore and forget everything that was promised/described/sold to us, then let's start with PGI telling us what their new vision for the game is, and how they expect to get there.

[STEF_]

My 2 cents

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

One: Let's establish the harsh reality that the four pillars we were sold way back in the beginning are now irrelevant.
That boat sailed long ago with the veer to esport'esk endeavors. Pining over what could have been, is an exercise in frustration. With the present development team and the framework already essentially laid, returning to those pillars is functionally unrealistic.

Not agree.
PIllars are relevant about how many players left, and now playerbase is not esactly that solid.
Moreover the esport crap (aka skillest tourney etc.) contributed to turn away many players who didn't like and burn many of those who wanted to partecipate.

I still see the return of pillars like "the Savior"

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Two: In any live production environment, the project can and will morph into various shades of the original design concept. To include omission of previously discussed features, modification of existing features and concessions beyond previously discussed changes. Let's drop the pseudo-adolescent inference that everything discussed is a promise that cannot be broken or amended... This is not how real world works and most definitely is not the world of software development.

Not agree here.
If I enter mcDonald and I ask a burger, I don't want the waiter to give me a taco.
McDonald failed to do a burger?
NO PROBLEM: there must be a community manager and townhall or whatever explaining what was happening in the kitchen, and explaining how the "new products" will be.
Maybe I could also buy a taco, then....

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Three - Being practical / realistic: Let's be honest... We all would not be here if there was not something about MWO, regardless of how small and pedantic it may be that we enjoy about MWO. With that reality, let's dispense with pie-in-the-sky expectations (For the immediate future) and establish real, attainable goals for MWO, this community and this developer. Ya can't get from point A to point B without first taking a step...

Despite all, I'm still here and enjoy the game.
But maybe because it's the only bt/mw related one.
It is difficult to have expectations, since pgi itself doesn't show anything about.

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Lastly, bearing into consideration the above three baselines, how can we dispense with all the snark, derision, and vitriol and create an environment that might be conducive to re-establishing a non-combative relationship with PGI with an end-goal of having frank and honest discussion about the direction of MWO. Yes, I understand this requires PGI coming to the table and behaving like adults. Conversely, this goes for us as well. Like my mother loved to share with me and my siblings... It takes two to fight.

it is difficult to re-establish communications when a ceo states "We perfectly know what to do, we don't need any playerbase suggestions"
All and all, I still had a little trust in pgi before that Townhall.

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 01:49 PM, said:

Question to the community: "Can we overcome our preexisting bias, adjust our expectations and collectively move forward, or are we destine to continue to foster and propagate the existing dystopian environment and drive this game and this community to an early exit"?

Thoughts?

So, I think it's all in pgi's hands.
My main lamentations are always the same.


1) No content. (new mech is not new content. playing with quirks is not new content)
2) No community manager.
3) pgi ceo uber-evaluating himself and pgi ..."development(?? cannot understand if any, lol)
4) Balance Overlord having NO idea whatsoever of the game and how to balance it.

I really cannot blame mwo ommunity about the salt or behaviours.
In my country there is a motto saying (literal translation) "Who sows wind (air?) will harvest a storm"

[Johnny Z]

Davers, on 05 November 2016 - 12:15 AM, said:

Step One. PGI makes a clear statement about the direction of MWO.

If, we the players, are supposed to be willing to ignore and forget everything that was promised/described/sold to us, then let's start with PGI telling us what their new vision for the game is, and how they expect to get there.

Ok, I totally agree with the idea of knowing where the design is going. Good point, I didn't see it earlier in the topic if it was mentioned.

Edited by Johnny Z, 05 November 2016 - 12:52 AM.

[Hunka Junk]

Johnny Z, on 04 November 2016 - 11:53 PM, said:

I always learned to worry more about what I am doing than others. You don't know what someone elses job entails.

Your comments have some merit about lack of content but try and stay real.

By the way as a wild guess that job most difficult part is probly managing all the forum mods and other mods. Just a guess. Maybe its unrelated I really don't know.

Well, if the community manager's time is totally consumed managing the mods, then maybe we need two community managers.

You want real? Here's real: the community manager has no meaningful presence in the community being managed.

[Alteran]

Starting with a vision and direction of where MWO would be a nice thing to see. Except, PGI has done that many years in a row with huge failures in the direction they did go. CW was their chance to take this game to the next level and give us true immersion. Did they bite off more than they could chew... perhaps, but I believe it's more like they didn't hire enough talent to make it a reality. Instead they went on the cheap and we're now getting bukkits. Good job!

Next was an attempt at E-sports. You all be the judge.

The Future........

Solaris, well sure, but that'll get dominated by a top 100ish player base and a majority of the community will lose interest in it very quickly. Leader boards are cool, but are forgotten about quickly. We see this in CW and I didn't even know there was a leader board in the profile area till there was a post about it. Couldn't be bothered with it.

PVE content? I guess developing 4-6 hours worth of playable content is cool. As some have pointed out, it'll at least give them something to do when the servers eventually go offline.

A good majority of this community will read this and go Bittervet and let the salty tears rain down. Yes, after being sold what I was sold on, yes I guess I am. I still play because the core game itself is IMO good, but what PGI has done was prop up what they were going to develop and gave a good many of us HOPE of what would be an incredibly immersive environment. That HOPE allowed me to justify to myself (more like convincing my wife) buying MWO (in Mechpaks and MC) 9 times over - if you consider a AAA game release costs $70-80. I just bought Battlefield 1 for $80 and I sure as hell wouldn't buy it 9 times over for all the same basic game play, maps and weaponry content.

The HOPE is gone and I'm grounded in reality. Fool me once, shame on you (CW), we haven't gotten to twice yet and I'm not sure we will. There will be no more Mechpaks to buy that I can't wait for. There are no trinkets that I 'must have'. The private match game modes are cool and should be pushed to match maker, but there will be no more MC for premium time either. I'm done and with what just happened with the Tourny decals, a good many in my unit might be done as well.

The wallet is closed and there is no content release in the future that will open it again. I've paid for MWO many times over, it's now time for PGI to deliver what they said they'd deliver... or not.

[Mystere]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 02:07 PM, said:

Dispensing with the bitterness... That is not true otherwise you would not be here.

I will make the not so unreasonable assumption that people go here because they like some raw Mech combat but also go somewhere else if they want to get more depth in gameplay.

As such, the comment that:

Mycrus, on 04 November 2016 - 02:05 PM, said:

Its too late.

does hold water.

[Mystere]

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:

This was nothing more than a quasi-impassioned plea for BOTH parties (them and us) to effectively get over themselves, dispense with the juvenile bravado and misplaced hubris and try to re-negotiate the terms of our mutual relationship.

Renegotiate?

The money was paid in advance but the goods were not delivered as agreed upon. What exactly is there to renegotiate?

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:

Long and short, I don't want to see this game die on the vine ..

My "long and short" is that I am close to not giving a damn anymore. I'm here when I feel like mindlessly shooting other people but will be somewhere else when I want to do something else more engaging.

DaZur, on 04 November 2016 - 09:56 PM, said:

I guess I am pissing in the wind.

Yes you are.

Edited by Mystere, 05 November 2016 - 06:54 AM.