107 replies to this topic

[Tarogato]

Results!


Overall results: https://docs.google....#gid=1954608450

I closed the poll due to incoming balancing changes in the November patch. 323 submissions were accepted.


58 submissions were chosen to be normalised - which is to say those people did not properly rank mechs from 1-10, so I stretched their numbers to fit the entire interval. Here is an example to show what I mean by this. This doesn't change the relationship between the numbers, it's like adding contrast to a image so that you can see the features more easily. The net result of these adjustments didn't have nearly as much of an effect as I expected, you can see the comparison here: https://docs.google....#gid=1954608450


Here is a rough comparison between how Reddit voted vs. how the MWO forums voted. They're not 100% exclusive, but pretty close. Not very much difference between the two.


Here is a breakdown comparison between causal, semi-competitive, and comp players.






Original post follows in the spoiler:

Spoiler

Use this first! (optional)

This is a tool that you can use to help visualise mech balance:

Copy #1 https://docs.google....#gid=2125551326
Copy #2 https://docs.google....#gid=2125551326

Follow the instructions on the front page. I've linked two copies here in case they get congested with many people using them at the same time, so you can try the other copy.

---

Here is the poll, vote here!

EDIT 11-NOV-2016: POLL CLOSED UNTIL PGI MAKES ENOUGH BALANCE CHANGES TO MERIT ANOTHER ROUND!

​1 - Rate each chassis from 1 to 10.
2 - Please make sure that each category has mechs rated at both "1" and a full "10"
3 - Rate each chassis according its peak build/variant. Ie., if you think the KDK-3 is the strongest Kodiak, only consider the KDK-3.
4 - You can skip any mech that you don't feel qualified to rate. But the more the better! Feel free to rate unreleased mechs.

https://docs.google....XU7BHw/viewform

---

Edited by Tarogato, 12 November 2016 - 03:27 PM.

[El Bandito]

I voted and then erased the visualized numbers. After checking the results, I am surprised how close the votes are. As expected, Clan mechs are in the lead in all classes.

In the Light class, IS Jenner seems to be most varied in terms of opinion on its effectiveness, for all range of players. +20% variance from casual to comp players.

Interesting how comp players rate the Ferret and the Trebbie much higher than more casual players in the Medium class. I understand why Ferret can be decent choice, but the Trebuchet?

From Heavy class, Archer seems to have a lot of variance for casual players, most likely due to the fact many of them can't deal with LRMs. Still a weak chassis overall.

Comp players are also much less impressed with the incoming Mad-IIC, than the rest. Time will tell. And yes, Kodiak (specifically KDK-3) is just bounds better than the rest of the Assaults, having near perfect score. Comp players especially agree with it while casual players slightly are more varied in that opinion--which supports my theory that KDK-3 becomes far more effective the better its pilot skill is. In the potato league, piloted by potato players, it could be less intimidating.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 November 2016 - 11:05 PM.

[Fox With A Shotgun]

Interesting to note that the KDK is indisputably a 10/10 mech, lol.

Also makes me very sad that apparently an Urbanmech is considered as being less of a joke than a Commando or a Mist Lynx.

Another interesting data filter that could be applied would be to see players' preferred mech weight class vs their perceptions of how the other classes are doing.

Edited by Fox With A Shotgun, 06 November 2016 - 09:50 PM.

[Clownwarlord]

Looking at it so far which isn't much but Kodiak 3 needs a beating with a nerf bat.

[Davegt27]

Ice ferret is the best Mech in the game lol

[Tarogato]

El Bandito, on 06 November 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

Interesting how comp players rate the Ferret and the Trebbie much higher than more casual players in the Medium class. I understand why Ferret can be decent choice, but the Trebuchet?

About the Trebuchet, the interest in it is due to this build or similar: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ec992e143d3d6b6

It has 20% range, duration, and heat gen. Also, all of its weapons are on its arms, which means it gets full articulation and can shoot down below very well. This mech is typically used in MRBC drop 1, where the requirement is to bring four lights and four mediums. Generally, drop 1 winds up being a match between two SRM or SPL brawling teams. The Trebuchet can jump up onto a very high location out of range of the brawl and just pour out damage with its quirks. If anything comes to hunt it down, it has full arm articulation so it's better equipped to handle it than say an ENF-4R or HBK-IIC-A.

That's pretty much the only time I've seen it used competitively. Most teams prefer to use ENF-4R in later drops if they are forced to use an IS ranged medium (MRBC has a strict duplicate mech rule, where you can only duplicate one chassis per match, so you can't just run four Hunchbacks IICs or four Griffins.)

Edited by Tarogato, 06 November 2016 - 10:25 PM.

[Tristan Winter]

Damnit, I misread the instructions and so my scores are not appropriate.

[Tarogato]

Tristan Winter, on 06 November 2016 - 10:26 PM, said:

Damnit, I misread the instructions and so my scores are not appropriate.

Haha, I was considering messaging you, but you posted anyways. You can redo if you like and I'll remove the old one.

[Chimera_]

Some of these results are pretty interesting. I was a bit hasty in my rankings so quite a few I would change if I could, but regardless there seems to be a lot of variation on certain chassis. For instance, a decent chunk of people ranked the Rifleman very low. It's certainly not one of the best heavies, but a fairly solid chassis in my experience and probably a 6/10 relative to the best heavies. The Orion IIC is another chassis I've used a decent bit that seems to also get a lot of differing opinions. This is coming from someone who primarily plays CW at a fairly competitive level, with quick play thrown in when I don't have unit members to play CW with; or if I'm leveling mechs.

I suppose a lot of the variation can be attributed not only to player experience and/or skill, but also to individual players' focus between CW, QP, and comp leagues.


Anyway, it's definitely interesting to see these results. Thanks for throwing this stuff together, Tarogato.

[Jman5]

I was surprised by how highly rated the timber wolf was. I know it was the go-to heavy mech for a while, but a lot of other solid heavies have been released since the initial clan invasion. I mean, that CT is awfully hard to miss.

[El Bandito]

Jman5, on 06 November 2016 - 11:37 PM, said:

I was surprised by how highly rated the timber wolf was. I know it was the go-to heavy mech for a while, but a lot of other solid heavies have been released since the initial clan invasion. I mean, that CT is awfully hard to miss.

I find hitting Gyr's CT even easier due to its slower mobility, and that mech is already very good.

Tarogato, on 06 November 2016 - 10:23 PM, said:

About the Trebuchet, the interest in it is due to this build or similar: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ec992e143d3d6b6

It has 20% range, duration, and heat gen. Also, all of its weapons are on its arms, which means it gets full articulation and can shoot down below very well. This mech is typically used in MRBC drop 1, where the requirement is to bring four lights and four mediums. Generally, drop 1 winds up being a match between two SRM or SPL brawling teams. The Trebuchet can jump up onto a very high location out of range of the brawl and just pour out damage with its quirks. If anything comes to hunt it down, it has full arm articulation so it's better equipped to handle it than say an ENF-4R or HBK-IIC-A.

That's pretty much the only time I've seen it used competitively. Most teams prefer to use ENF-4R in later drops if they are forced to use an IS ranged medium (MRBC has a strict duplicate mech rule, where you can only duplicate one chassis per match, so you can't just run four Hunchbacks IICs or four Griffins.)

Ah yes, I forgot the lazor variant--which is never used in solo-q. Interesting how some players keep MRBC rules in mind when voting.

Edited by El Bandito, 06 November 2016 - 11:46 PM.

[Duke Nedo]

Great work Tarogato, interesting read! Over all it seems like variance is lower than I would have expected, seems like there is pretty much a consensus about mech balance.

[Juodas Varnas]

I voted.
Though, keep in mind that i'm REALLY bad at putting things to a scale of 1-10. I have a habit of sort of going to either extreme and putting in the first number i thought, without putting TOO much thought into it. Basically going by feels (muh feels bruh!)

Some of the results did surprise me, though. Like the Stormcrow being not a perfect 10

[Xetelian]

Sad thing is a player will do a spreadsheet on mech balance for us all to vote on but PGI? No, they rather throw darts at a wall on mech balance.

Clearly the VTR needs help and the HGN. A few from each weight class need all the assistance they can get.

[Deathlike]

El Bandito, on 06 November 2016 - 09:38 PM, said:

I voted and then erased the visualized numbers. After checking the results, I am surprised how close the votes are. As expected, Clan mechs are in the lead in all classes.

Gyrok would disagree that Clan XL's superiority was nerfed.... or something.

Quote

In the Light class, IS Jenner seems to be most varied in terms of opinion on its effectiveness, for all range of players. +20% variance from casual to comp players.

The IS Jenner NEVER got better over time. What people are really thinking of was the Oxide's dominance for a period, but that mech has been nerfed since the rescaling, so it's not a thing. People remember things that hurt them, but they don't really judge it after things change. It's the nostalgia effect that hasn't stopped.

Quote

Interesting how comp players rate the Ferret and the Trebbie much higher than more casual players in the Medium class. I understand why Ferret can be decent choice, but the Trebuchet?

Quirks. It's not that useful in the group queue in the sense that you have better options, but it's there.... Trebuchet meta and all...

Quote

From Heavy class, Archer seems to have a lot of variance for casual players, most likely due to the fact many of them can't deal with LRMs. Still a weak chassis overall.

It's less about being abused by LRMs, but moreso removing their side torsos like the Maddog. It's not even a consideration in general unless you really like your missiles.

Quote

Comp players are also much less impressed with the incoming Mad-IIC, than the rest. Time will tell. And yes, Kodiak (specifically KDK-3) is just bounds better than the rest of the Assaults, having near perfect score. Comp players especially agree with it while casual players slightly are more varied in that opinion--which supports my theory that KDK-3 becomes far more effective the better its pilot skill is. In the potato league, piloted by potato players, it could be less intimidating.

KDK-3 OP? Of course not! It's a potato world and we're just living in it!

El Bandito, on 06 November 2016 - 11:44 PM, said:

I find hitting Gyr's CT even easier due to its slower mobility, and that mech is already very good.

Positioning will counter that though.. it won't survive a push, but the ability to snipe/poptart with decent firepower is not something one can write off (Timberwolves do it kinda poorly, despite having better agility).

Quote

Ah yes, I forgot the lazor variant--which is never used in solo-q. Interesting how some players keep MRBC rules in mind when voting.

It's less about rules (MRBC isn't everything, yet is everything), but more about figuring out the dropdeck situation. Even EmP has used that Failbucket-5J in comp matches. It's a thing if you mitigate its weaknesses.

[Kmieciu]

Deathlike, on 07 November 2016 - 02:10 AM, said:

Failbucket-5J in comp matches. It's a thing if you mitigate its weaknesses.

I hate Trench buckets!
Used them in 30 matches after the re-scale and they went up and demolished my mech statistics.
If I go out and say that a Trebuchet is my best performing medium mech, all my credibility is gone.

[Juodas Varnas]

Kmieciu, on 07 November 2016 - 02:46 AM, said:

I hate Trench buckets!
Used them in 30 matches after the re-scale and they went up and demolished my mech statistics.
If I go out and say that a Trebuchet is my best performing medium mech, all my credibility is gone.

[Kmieciu]

Juodas Varnas, on 07 November 2016 - 02:50 AM, said:

I think it's more about using my teammates as shields and exploiting those crazy quirks:
5J: +20% laser range -20% heat -20% duration? whaaaat!
7M: more short range DPS than SRM Stormcrow or Griffin.

Edited by Kmieciu, 07 November 2016 - 02:59 AM.

[NighthawK1337]

TBR is still the king of heavies, yay.

As a pilot that mains NVAs I love it how the NVA narrowly beat SCR for 2nd place.

KFX I think should be a little bit higher, I think of it as a more mobile and utility ADR with less weapons. At least on par with ADR.

HBK-IIC and KDK are the top voted in their weight class, no surprise there, high mounts is best mounts.

KGC has fallen to obscurity, I think the lack of torso armor/structure quirks coupled with the big-S CT hitbox really gives it a hard time.

Overall the polls kinda follows what I've been seeing in the meta.

[Clownwarlord]

This should be stuck.

NighthawK1337, on 07 November 2016 - 03:10 AM, said:

TBR is still the king of heavies, yay.

As a pilot that mains NVAs I love it how the NVA narrowly beat SCR for 2nd place.

KFX I think should be a little bit higher, I think of it as a more mobile and utility ADR with less weapons. At least on par with ADR.

HBK-IIC and KDK are the top voted in their weight class, no surprise there, high mounts is best mounts.

KGC has fallen to obscurity, I think the lack of torso armor/structure quirks coupled with the big-S CT hitbox really gives it a hard time.

Overall the polls kinda follows what I've been seeing in the meta.

KFC is 5 tons lighter than adder hence less weapons. Outside of being iron dome there isn't much for it to do.