107 replies to this topic

[Hunka Junk]

Thank you for this.

The working class hero. No flash, all elbow grease=BLR

[nehebkau]

PhoenixFire55, on 07 November 2016 - 08:00 AM, said:

So of course everyone who doesn't even own all those mechs is qualified to vote. No offense, but this is pathetic.

With a large enough sample size, even thumb nailing becomes accurate -- so not pathetic. I appreciate the effort and numbers seem to reflect what I seen in drops. I still, however, don't understand how the cataphract rated so high -- hitting terrain with your weapons isn't very useful. What is pathetic is that a player had to do this and not PGI.

The Clan crushing win in medium mechs is pretty much why scouting is stagnant now.

[Ultimax]

nehebkau, on 07 November 2016 - 11:27 AM, said:

I still, however, don't understand how the cataphract rated so high -- hitting terrain with your weapons isn't very useful.

It's rated as below average (4.0, with 5.0 being the average).

There are only 3 other heavies rated lower than it.

• Orion (3.9)
  
• Archer (3.9)
  
• Dragon (2.3)

All things considered, that's a pretty accurate assessment.

Edited by Ultimax, 07 November 2016 - 11:49 AM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimax, on 07 November 2016 - 11:48 AM, said:

It's rated as below average (4.0, with 5.0 being the average).

There are only 3 other heavies rated lower than it.

• Orion (3.9)
  
• Archer (3.9)
  
• Dragon (2.3)

All things considered, that's a pretty accurate assessment.

Clearly that Dragon dakka arm isn't doing enough!!!11!!

Oh wait, that got nerfbatted away.

The funny part about it was that it wasn't comp viable, but some people (Gyrok) were screaming to the heavens about it... despite the thing being a total gimmick.

That's why we can't have nice things.

[Alistair Winter]

Tarogato, on 06 November 2016 - 03:49 PM, said:

If you're interested in seeing a breakdown between casual and competitive players' submissions, click here.
(This sheet does not update in real time like the one above.)

This part is pretty awesome.

[Ultimax]

Deathlike, on 07 November 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Clearly that Dragon dakka arm isn't doing enough!!!11!!

Oh wait, that got nerfbatted away.

The funny part about it was that it wasn't comp viable, but some people (Gyrok) were screaming to the heavens about it... despite the thing being a total gimmick.

Honestly, I'm OK that the actual quirk itself was toned down because it was another feast or famine thing where you either blindside someone and just wreck them or you get your arm blown off and lolwhatweapons?

The problem is, once again, PGI just takes it away - gives zero consideration to why they actually buffed the stupid thing in the first place.

OK, reduce the CD quirks if you have to so it's not firing virtual extra AC 5s - but ffs buff the hell out of the structure and armor of the arm so it is super hard to blow it off!

Buff the ARMOR as well as the structure for the CT & STs so at least the horrible geometry isn't a disaster.

Or holy hell, break your dumb rule and add some extra energy hardpoints - it's not like we haven't had massive hardpoint inflation over the years.


They just remove, and they rarely if ever re-compensate.

Edited by Ultimax, 07 November 2016 - 01:08 PM.

[Deathlike]

Ultimax, on 07 November 2016 - 12:10 PM, said:

Honestly, I'm OK that the actual quirk itself was toned down because it was another feast or famine thing where you either blindside someone and just wreck them or you get your arm blown off and lolwhatweapons?

The problem is, once again, PGI just takes it away - gives zero consideration to why they actually buffed the stupid thing in the first place.

OK, reduce the CD quirks if you have to so it's not firing virtual extra AC 5s - but ffs buff the hell out of the structure and armor of the arm so it is super hard to blow it off!

Buff the ARMOR as well as the structure for the CT & STs so at least the horrible geometry isn't a disaster.

Or holy hell, break your dumb rule and add some extra energy hardpoints.


They just remove, and they rarely if ever re-compensate.

Or holy hell, break your dumb rulle and add some extra energy hardpoints.

I would've just aimed for the right torso.

Even then, only our balance overlord likes to use that magic 8-ball in conjunction with that dartboard.

[C E Dwyer]

One things for sure, the community has far better knowledge of what mechs need buffs and nerfs than P.G.I's Balance over Lord despite all his metric's and graphs

[Deathlike]

So with the current votes... I'll point out some of the anomalies...

For Lights, Spiders, Jenners, and Locusts are an interesting look.

Spiders and Jenners generally are preceded by their really really really old reputation and I bet the variance really comes from perception vs reality. Remember this was the time where Oxides roamed the fields, but people forgot it was double nerfed from the rescaling.

The Locust on the other hand has an interesting impression, mostly due the rescaling (the Jenners+Spiders got bigger for the most part, the Jenner being most obvious). Locusts became better for a period, but like a lot of observations of Light mechs.... people are likely to have attempted shooting them (with some better than others at this) and less likely to have driven them themselves.

I would argue that people that complain about things they are unable to kill, are just as unable to drive them well enough to not be killed.


For Mediums... I've covered the Trebuchets before...as most the variance comes from the Trebuchet-5J vs the others when it comes to comp play. The most interesting variance is of the Ice Ferrets.

It was easier to mock the Fridges way back when, but their quirks have made them reasonable buff. While they won't have the same firepower of the Adder, but it can run a reasonable 5 CERMED build WITH mobility. You can also run Light builds as well... but at least be tankier than the ACH if you have to knife fight them. It's a very different view on the comp level... but it's something that not a lot of regular players look to as a "fat light" with ability.

Cicada and Viper are weird though... I can't quite figure out the latter, but the Cicada has some interesting uses (2B has some decent quirks, 3M still used for its ECM, I don't think anyone uses the 3F for poptarting though).


For Heavies... the Onions... I mean Orions are still not great. I don't quite know what the variance is coming from, but it's limited and used in a few designs (total LRM boat, or some brawling boat with lots of SRMs), and outside of that, it's kinda hard to do much (it would be the 4th mech in some sort of MRBC/comp brawl situation).

I've already said my piece about Archers (very limited, not that different from Orions in that sense), but the Cataphract and Summoner are interesting on their own. The Summoner's opinion has changed due to the energy nipples... but the limit of the builds are also what controls its popularity (it's not very diverse by design). The Cataphract isn't that good as the meta has evolved since the Hoverjet™ Chronicles. I know people are trying to use all the classic builds and whatnot, but it hadn't really evolved well for it... even with the ECM-phract and including the MASC-Pharact. The problem is that there are better options in the 70-ton section these days... so, it's different between tiers and opinions for this.


Avoiding the talk about an unreleased mech (I mean, seriously, how do you judge a mech we don't have?), the Highlander-IIC, Gargoyle, and Awesome are interesting things to look it.

The Highlander-IIC, while inheriting all of the benefits of Clan tech, is still meh in general. The variance would probably be along what people are thinking about its "potential", but besides Hoverjets™, it's hard enough evaluating a mech that is rarely seen on the battlefield. It may have some better builds than its non-IIC brethren, but we'd see more of this "underwhelming" mech yes? Who knows...

The Gargoyle is interesting... and it's only claim to fame is MRBC's usage (AFAIK, maybe I'd have to expand my understanding to leagues other than MRBC). The ability to brawl like the Nova does with as many SL/SPL is its reason to exist. Otherwise, most people wouldn't really look at it twice (similar to the Ice Ferret with its oversized engine). Mr. Gargles would be proud.

The Awesome is ironically simply a better mech than the Victor... a point lost on people since too many requirkenings. Partly, MRBC is making some niche role for it (long range ERPPC sniping @ 80 tons) so it's gotten more attention than a mech normally would. I'd still mock the Awesome for it being a barn door... but if you had to use an 80 tonner and you wanted to snipe.. it's not the end of the world (sniping at long range mitigates the barn door effect a little bit). It doesn't make the Awesome good, but I guess "that's something". The Pretty Baby will still cry in its own corner though.


I'm sure I could spend time with other mechs and stuff, but at least one thing is certain... the KDK-3 has the least variance of them all being #1. Gee, I hope that's just a random event right... right.... right?

[AnHell86]

Hiya! Please delete my response! I will fill a new one soon. Sorry about that.

[Tarogato]

Deathlike, on 07 November 2016 - 05:32 PM, said:

So with the current votes... I'll point out some of the anomalies...

For Lights, Spiders, Jenners, and Locusts are an interesting look.

Spiders and Jenners generally are preceded by their really really really old reputation and I bet the variance really comes from perception vs reality. Remember this was the time where Oxides roamed the fields, but people forgot it was double nerfed from the rescaling.

The Locust on the other hand has an interesting impression, mostly due the rescaling (the Jenners+Spiders got bigger for the most part, the Jenner being most obvious). Locusts became better for a period, but like a lot of observations of Light mechs.... people are likely to have attempted shooting them (with some better than others at this) and less likely to have driven them themselves

Spiders are one of EmP's top pick for light mechs right now, both in WC and in MRBC. I think it's interesting because so few other teams have adopted them. I suppose perhaps because Spiders aren't very good fighters, they are more of a utility mech and the team has to be prepared to deal with lights on their own because the Spiders can't win light fights. They are fast so they can cap, they have an LPL or ERLL so they can poke a little, and they have MGs so they can clean up crit mechs. I think you can see this reflected in the poll results - casual players rate the Spider lower than comp players do, likely because comp players have seen how much EmP prefers them for some scenarios and non-comp players don't see the positives.

The Jenner, well... particularly the Oxide, seems to be a matter of contention, it has the highest variance of the lights, and comp players have rated lower than everybody else. Personally, I think it's a very strong mech still, almost tied with the splat Jenner IIC, and I think its image is hurt a bit by the fact that hero mechs are now banned in MRBC, so fewer people are taking them into pub queue lately - practicing their actual comp light mechs instead.

The Locust I rated as 4th best light mech. I own it and play it, and definitely voted from experience. It's survivability, though finicky, is almost unparalleled when you consider that in pub queue most people can't aim well enough to swat it, so it has tremendous 1v1 capability and can even survive ducking through an entire enemy team from time to time. A mech that can tank damage that well (well, speed-tank), and survive to keep dealing damage throughout the match and continue to be a pain in the arse, is a mech that will be rated as strong. It's also being used in MRBC quite frequently, which is usually an indication.

anhell86, on 07 November 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

Hiya! Please delete my response! I will fill a new one soon. Sorry about that.

You only voted 8 mechs? So anemic. =''[

Edited by Tarogato, 07 November 2016 - 06:24 PM.

[Deathlike]

Tarogato, on 07 November 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

Spiders are one of EmP's top pick for light mechs right now, both in WC and in MRBC. I think it's interesting because so few other teams have adopted them. I suppose perhaps because Spiders aren't very good fighters, they are more of a utility mech and the team has to be prepared to deal with lights on their own because the Spiders can't win light fights. They are fast so they can cap, they have an LPL or ERLL so they can poke a little, and they have MGs so they can clean up crit mechs. I think you can see this reflected in the poll results - casual players rate the Spider lower than comp players do, likely because comp players have seen how much EmP prefers them for some scenarios and non-comp players don't see the positives.

They do have a niche purpose... and you have to recognize the situation quickly enough to take advantage of it. I kinda forget a bit about that. I do think that situational awareness is not what some people have enough of though.

Quote

The Jenner, well... particularly the Oxide, seems to be a matter of contention, it has the highest variance of the lights, and comp players have rated lower than everybody else. Personally, I think it's a very strong mech still, almost tied with the splat Jenner IIC, and I think its image is hurt a bit by the fact that hero mechs are now banned in MRBC, so fewer people are taking them into pub queue lately - practicing their actual comp light mechs instead.

MRBC's rule change on heroes does change the picture a bit, but would you really take an Oxide these days... at least compared to last season? It might be given some play in the Drop 1 dropdeck, but I wouldn't be so sure in the other Drops.

Quote

The Locust I rated as 4th best light mech. I own it and play it, and definitely voted from experience. It's survivability, though finicky, is almost unparalleled when you consider that in pub queue most people can't aim well enough to swat it, so it has tremendous 1v1 capability and can even survive ducking through an entire enemy team from time to time. A mech that can tank damage that well (well, speed-tank), and survive to keep dealing damage throughout the match and continue to be a pain in the arse, is a mech that will be rated as strong. It's also being used in MRBC quite frequently, which is usually an indication.

I can't really vouch for the Lolcust's prominence, but you need to have a high skill and high situational awareness to even properly troll an opfor, let alone be consistent in comp play. You wouldn't do this to just do it... I'm not saying it shouldn't be as popular as it is, but part of it still is the discrepancy between the top and the rest.

It's hard to nail one particular thing with the Locust though... the variance does exist for good reason though.

[G3 Heathen]

I based my rank of mechs i dont own but have faced on the battlefield. I dont own a kodiak yet but fear it greatly. You dont have to own a mech to rank it. As for the ones thay have not been relased yet, you can only guess.
Not many suprises here, urbies got to urbie and cheetas rule.

[Alistair Winter]

Tarogato, on 07 November 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

Spiders are one of EmP's top pick for light mechs right now, both in WC and in MRBC. I think it's interesting because so few other teams have adopted them. I suppose perhaps because Spiders aren't very good fighters, they are more of a utility mech and the team has to be prepared to deal with lights on their own because the Spiders can't win light fights. They are fast so they can cap, they have an LPL or ERLL so they can poke a little, and they have MGs so they can clean up crit mechs. I think you can see this reflected in the poll results - casual players rate the Spider lower than comp players do, likely because comp players have seen how much EmP prefers them for some scenarios and non-comp players don't see the positives.

Surely this is because of different perspectives? I might see the positives for an elite unit like EmP, on account of excellent teamwork and building a strategy around which mechs they're taking. But if you're only playing the pug life or even part of a small, casual unit that likes to drop in group queue while drinking beer and talking about football, then it's a different game alltogether.

The SDR-5K seems to be a mech that depends greatly on having a team that can be counted on to get them out of trouble if they engage in a duel with more heavily armed light mechs. And when you've got drop commanders calling targets effectively and pointing out stripped targets for the Spiders, it might be a different thing as well.

Could it also be a result of which maps were being played? I haven't followed the WC, but it seems to me that taking a SDR-5K on a map like Polar Highlands or Frozen is risky for Conquest, for example, because you can't run away from your team and expect to handle yourself against a JR7 IIC, Locust or ACH. But on a smaller map, or in any other game mode except Conquest, you can just stay close to your teammates and not have to deal with other lights in a skirmish.

Tarogato, on 07 November 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

The Locust I rated as 4th best light mech. I own it and play it, and definitely voted from experience. It's survivability, though finicky, is almost unparalleled when you consider that in pub queue most people can't aim well enough to swat it, so it has tremendous 1v1 capability and can even survive ducking through an entire enemy team from time to time. A mech that can tank damage that well (well, speed-tank), and survive to keep dealing damage throughout the match and continue to be a pain in the arse, is a mech that will be rated as strong. It's also being used in MRBC quite frequently, which is usually an indication.

Do you always use biggest engine possible, XL190?

[Sjorpha]

I don't see a problem with the top down chassis approach when only one variant is relevant to the meta, like with the trebuchet, or when the meta relevant variants are similar in role, like with black knights, or for omnimechs obviously.

But whe a chassis have a big role variance across the variants, and several variants are relevant, then I do see a problem. One example would be warhammer, surely the 6d and black widow are both very relevant, but for two completely separate roles, that's harder to put a rating on. Surely the Spirit Bear is relevant for competitive brawling setups separately from the 3. So in cases like that you have more relevant differences between two variants than there between some chassis, I would really like to see ratings for warhammer both in relation to ballistic and laser vomit picks since they are relevant for different maps, decks and range brackets.

I still think this is super duper awesome and possibly the best evaluation project we've seen in game so far. Well done.

[Tarogato]

Alistair Winter, on 08 November 2016 - 04:38 AM, said:

Could it also be a result of which maps were being played? I haven't followed the WC, but it seems to me that taking a SDR-5K on a map like Polar Highlands or Frozen is risky for Conquest, for example, because you can't run away from your team and expect to handle yourself against a JR7 IIC, Locust or ACH. But on a smaller map, or in any other game mode except Conquest, you can just stay close to your teammates and not have to deal with other lights in a skirmish.

Actually, I believe it's the other way around. It's definitely on a per-map basis, but I believe the Spider is the more attractive option on larger maps where caps are critical and the Spider has the speed to both cap points and harass with LPL (or ERLL) and has the MGs to critseek damaged mechs. So the longer the game goes, the valuable the Spider becomes. This is why EmP preferred to use the Spider for Tourmaline, but they did not use it for Canyon Network because Canyon is too small and they needed lights that could do damage earlier in the match, such as JR7-IIC and ACH.

Quote

Do you always use biggest engine possible, XL190?

I might have an XL180 in my SRM Locust, but otherwise yes - max engine.

[prox]

Good jorb, interesting to read. Maaaybe a little hint towards PGI how they can make competitive assault selection process a bit less monochrome.

[Ghogiel]

Deathlike, on 07 November 2016 - 11:59 AM, said:

Clearly that Dragon dakka arm isn't doing enough!!!11!!

Oh wait, that got nerfbatted away.

The funny part about it was that it wasn't comp viable, but some people (Gyrok) were screaming to the heavens about it... despite the thing being a total gimmick.

That's why we can't have nice things.

I think what happened to it is that PGI looked at the dmg numbers it was able to do and was doing and decided consistant 4k dmg rounds while potato farming in CW was a problem.

[Deathlike]

Ghogiel, on 08 November 2016 - 01:00 PM, said:

I think what happened to it is that PGI looked at the dmg numbers it was able to do and was doing and decided consistant 4k dmg rounds while potato farming in CW was a problem.

Well, we do have Mr. Potatohead as our head balancer in the game.

[El Bandito]

The chart had clearly showed us that Clan tech > IS quirks. Just compare the rating between Jenner/Hunchie/Orion/Highlander vs their IIC counterparts.

Something PGI should keep in mind.