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Clpl, Wtf?


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#21 Kubernetes

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 02:17 AM

View PostrazenWing, on 12 November 2016 - 02:04 AM, said:


The estimated new Optimal based on their EXISTING mathematical model is NOT hard. Just as I guesstimated that 60m difference in Max is probably about 40m difference in low end. I am telling you guys, there is NO GOD DAMN WAY, that PGI changed specifically for the cLPL to only have a 200m drop-off. So trust me on this, they moved the trend line, so the optimal drop-off is affected.

Then again, Trump is elected president, so what do I know about Math right? But you all owe me an apology when what I said will happen, actually happen. I will be keeping track of every single one of you.


What does your speculation have to do with math or Trump?

Why do the patch notes specially note the optimal range increase for IS Small Lasers but omit any change for the cLPL? Either (1) there is no change, or (2) you're right and PGI forgot to include it in their patch notes. Either way we'll know for certain soon enough. Why are you getting so riled up over your own speculation? Apologies? Wtf. Are you going to apologize if you're wrong?

#22 Juodas Varnas

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 02:20 AM

Posted Image

#23 razenWing

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 02:32 AM

View PostKubernetes, on 12 November 2016 - 02:17 AM, said:

What does your speculation have to do with math or Trump?

Why do the patch notes specially note the optimal range increase for IS Small Lasers but omit any change for the cLPL? Either (1) there is no change, or (2) you're right and PGI forgot to include it in their patch notes. Either way we'll know for certain soon enough. Why are you getting so riled up over your own speculation? Apologies? Wtf. Are you going to apologize if you're wrong?


I will absolutely apologize if I am wrong. But so far, I've made the correct prediction on Mapgate and GH 2.0. I've stated my opinions correctly before anyone else even spot problems (check my post record, I am not afraid to have people going through them). So I have extreme confidence that I am correct on this issue as well.

View PostMcgral18, on 12 November 2016 - 02:13 AM, said:



How about I go ahead and copy paste the PTS5 cLPL data?

-<Weapon faction="Clan" HardpointAliases="Energy,Laser,LargeLaser,PulseLaser,LargePulseLaser,ClanLaser,ClanLargeLaserFamily,ClanLargeLaser,ClanPulseLaser,ClanLargePulseLaser" name="ClanLargePulseLaser" id="1216">
<Loc iconTag="StoreIcons\ClanLargePulseLaser.dds" descTag="@ClanLPL_desc" nameTag="@ClanLPL"/>
<WeaponStats maxDepth="10.0" volleydelay="0.0" speed="0" lifetime="0" duration="1.2" tons="6" maxRange="840" longRange="600" minRange="0" ammoPerShot="0" ammoType="" cooldown="3.2" heat="9.0" impulse="0.0" EnergyDraw="10.0" damage="10.0" numFiring="1" projectileclass="" type="Energy" slots="2" Health="10" effectscale="3.75"/>


Boom

In case you need that highlight:
  • maxRange="840"
  • longRange="600"


BLOODY FORMATTING!


PS. The PTS code you posted from Ver. 5 as I recall, was changed from Ver. 1. That was stated in the PTS 2 patch note. (Of course, I didn't follow anymore after 2)

-----------------------------

Again, think logically, either PGI created a weapon where a very small range gap of 200 meters can result in the steepest drop-off in the history of MWO. Or is my prediction more accurate?

And Juodas, I will continue to post here and find out if I am correct at the end of the day to accept/offer apologies. You are welcome to continue to post those useless memes. Just know that everytime you post them, you bump my thread, so thank you.

#24 Mcgral18

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 02:34 AM

View PostrazenWing, on 12 November 2016 - 02:32 AM, said:

Again, think logically, either PGI created a weapon where a very small range gap of 200 meters can result in the steepest drop-off in the history of MWO. Or is my prediction more accurate?


Seeing as, I just posted above, that they've already done that...yep


Stop trolling

#25 razenWing

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 02:43 AM

View PostMcgral18, on 12 November 2016 - 02:34 AM, said:


Seeing as, I just posted above, that they've already done that...yep


Stop trolling


So anytime someone don't disagree, that's trolling. Great post. Since you are in the habit of posting, post the codes from PTS 1. And honestly, when have they NOT refine codes from PTS and make a direct 100% transition to actual gameplay? (actually, don't answer that, because of the amount of bugs, maybe they have) My point is, there's a reason why it's the "TEST" server where not everything is applied/refined. GH 2.0 was in the codes too, where did that go?

#26 Oberost

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 02:48 AM

What happens with troll population lately? Someone was secretly feeding them and they breeded? It's A BW alt account?

#27 Yosharian

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 03:14 AM

View PostrazenWing, on 12 November 2016 - 12:39 AM, said:

Clan LPL (6 tons)
Max 840
Optimal ?(base on math, probably 400)


Quote

Clan Large Pulse Laser
Max Range reduced to 840 (from 1200)


EPIC FAIL

#28 LordNothing

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 03:38 AM

if you want a counter buff how about take the clpl duration down to 0.8 or 0.9. its a damn pulse laser, it should act like one.

#29 El Bandito

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 03:45 AM

View PostLordNothing, on 12 November 2016 - 03:38 AM, said:

if you want a counter buff how about take the clpl duration down to 0.8 or 0.9. its a damn pulse laser, it should act like one.


Then you are making it better than IS Large Laser, on top of IS LPL. Fact is, 13 damage laser with 600 optimum range needs some big downside to be equal to IS large class lasers. If Clan LPL had 10 damage, then I would support 0.8-0.9 duration.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 November 2016 - 03:49 AM.


#30 Fiona Marshe Pureborn

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 03:47 AM

1. "Long Range" is TT value (generally identical unless major balance issues, like Small laser).
2. "Max Range" is variable for flavour and balance.

Max Range in Closed Beta was 3x range for ballistics and 2x range for lasers... Its been coming down for quite a while.

#31 Appogee

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 04:10 AM

I can't see the reason for the concern. Clan LPL is stupidly good. Only the ghost limit of two stops us from boating more of them.

Reducing its max range, while keeping its optimal range, will make little practical difference, from my perspective.

Edited by Appogee, 12 November 2016 - 04:10 AM.


#32 Widowmaker1981

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 05:39 AM

Its not the end of the world, but if PGI thinks this is going to make me start using C-ERLLs they are wrong. Only way that is ever happening is when the duration comes down to something reasonable, till then ill just keep on using ERPPCs for long range work..

Tbh i was only really using LPLs for LPL+ERML or LPL+SPL laser vomiters, and this makes almost no difference to that usage.

Edited by Widowmaker1981, 12 November 2016 - 05:41 AM.


#33 STEF_

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 05:50 AM

View PostWidowmaker1981, on 12 November 2016 - 05:39 AM, said:

Its not the end of the world, but if PGI thinks this is going to make me start using C-ERLLs they are wrong. Only way that is ever happening is when the duration comes down to something reasonable, till then ill just keep on using ERPPCs for long range work..

Tbh i was only really using LPLs for LPL+ERML or LPL+SPL laser vomiters, and this makes almost no difference to that usage.

and from patch notes:
"[color=#558ED5]Design Notes: The Max Range of the Clan Large Pulse Laser is being tuned to provide a bit more distinction in its role when compared against its ER Large Laser counterpart. It is currently too effective at extreme ranges when compared to more dedicated long range alternatives."[/color]

Quite a good laught, isn't it?

On pair with:
"[color=#558ED5]Phoenix Hawk Design Notes: While the PHX has proven to be a decent enough performer on the field," [/color]

Which field? tier 4 one?

#34 Stugg

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 05:56 AM

Oh no! IS Laser Overlords INCOMING!

#35 Lily from animove

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 06:11 AM

the patch notes stated max range, not optimal damage range, so the 600m for full damage should stay, just the dropoff range is now rather short.

but the design decision leading to it will not cause what they stated they wanted to do, 1.5s beamduration is so bad they could give the CERLL 5m range and it would not be significant.

pGI should make the cLPL have 1 s bemduration and the CERLL 1.2 then there might be a consideration to take the extra range the CERLL has. as well as changing the CERML to 0.9 seconds and the IS medium alser to 0.8 and both CMPL and ISMPL going dowwn by 0-1s beamduartion as well as the (ER)ISLL needing a beam duration reduction. to be somewat in balance with the changed beamdutrations of a clpl.

the only times these ERLL were used were when the IS had somehwat bigger quirks on mechs for these lasers. which just shows that unquirked these weapons are kinda pointless.

No laser should beam longer than 1.3seconds, past this it is pointless, and thats the top duration from which on PGI should downscale the lasers and thei balance to each other.

Edited by Lily from animove, 12 November 2016 - 06:18 AM.


#36 razenWing

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 06:39 AM

It occurs to me that I've been arguing the wrong way. Regardless of whether optimal is nerfed (which I still maintain that I'm correct until proven wrong), I have gone ahead to make a chart illustrating the change.

Posted Image

This is taking several assumptions: equivalent heat (21 ~= 20), no quirk, no duration. (Not going into GH penalty, as 3 cLPL is 2 Alpha shutdown, so it's pointless to go up that much in heat scale)

Now, under the old system, clearly, the cLPL is essentially unchallenged beyond 460m. Meaningful dmg (1/2 of effective dmg) ends at about 870m. Anything beyond that, pretty much just trolling.

Assuming new system (600 optimal, forum assumption), the cLPL breaks even still at 460m, with Meaningful dmg now at about 730m. (let's call this FcLL) That's 270m operating distance where cLPL will have advantage over any other lasers on this comparison.

My assumption (420 optimal), the cLPL never breaks even against IS LL, and only exceeds IS LPL at 480m. It's meaningful dmg ends at ~640m. (let's call this, RcLL)

By comparison, IS LL will completely outclass RcLL, and will only lose out to FcLL at range between 480 and 760m. (50% at ~670)

IS LPL 50% at ~540m.

Conclusion:

I hope forum is correct over my assumption, as even at my best case scenario, RcLPL will only have about 60m advantage over the IS counterpart.

(assuming we are operating at 50% efficiency and above)

That advantage stretches to 190m when using 600m as optimal. (FcLPL)

IS LL is the most beneficiary of the cLPL nerf. It will straight outclass RcLPL and only lose 90m to FcLPL (though not surprisingly, the better tail end allows regular LL to poke/troll ~140m better)

Note, none of these range figures are that far apart. ~100m closing distance is quite rapid (maybe a few seconds or less, depends on trajectory of movement)

Certainly, in terms of first volley value concern, cLPL, regardless of change, remains a poor choice for short-mid range engagement. However, the nerf now essentially draw equal in mid-range engagement, and essentially eliminated the extreme range fights that we Clanners use cLPL for. (750m out)

If you are going to fire FcLPL, because of the rapid decay, you now have a small window between mid efficiency and trolling (just ~110m) Meaning, if you carelessly shoot at 770, 780 thinking you are not that far off from 600, you are going to be sorely disappointed. This is in stark contrast with OcLPL where 170m drop might mean losing mere 20% than 50% dmg)

Again, this is not taking into account quirks (often 10~15% range) and duration (25% faster for IS LL and 50% faster for IS LPL), meaning in multi volley scenario, in 4.5 seconds before falling back to cover, ALL IS Mechs will do 2x dmg as the chart compare to cLPL.

(If you expand all the above values for IS by 2x, then it's really a no contest)

How I figure 4.5 seconds engagement? ~3.5 cooldown + 1 duration for Clan (1 volley), during the same, IS can fire off 2 volleys.

I chose not to use 1 volley ceiling restriction to do dmg analysis cause... well, IS wins no contest. But interpret this anyway you want, the data is there. The nerf removes the specialty of Clans fighting at a distinctively range advantage without compensation buff, which ultimately will be disastrous.

Edited by razenWing, 12 November 2016 - 06:41 AM.


#37 Lupus Aurelius

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 07:15 AM

PGI will do what PGI always has done - kneejerk things to death, and no mount of argument will change their minds. They don't read these posts to begin with. Back in open beta, and a year after, we had people posting really good, thought out material (check out Homeless Bill's posts), and Paul and Russ out and out said they were just a disgruntled vocal minority that live on an island...

Ahh, R. Bollocks and P. Inyoureye

That being said, the max range nerf was excessive, 600 optimal with a 1000 max would have been reasonable, that would have been a 200 max reduction. Possibly even a max range in the high 900s. But a 360m reduction is excessive, that was more than half it's falloff.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 12 November 2016 - 07:16 AM.


#38 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 07:48 AM

Yeah the optimum range isn't changing, it just has a super steep drop off. Arguably a little too steep..

#39 Felbombling

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 07:51 AM

PGI could probably spare themselves a ton of grief balancing the game if they just tightened up the range difference between Clan and Inner Sphere weapons. The Clan versions already have weight and space savings compared to Inner Sphere versions, so I really don't see a compelling reason to give them a huge range advantage, as well.

I know quirks really make this idea difficult, but it can be said that quirks are in place to fix the range difference, anyway. Take it out of the equation and weapon balance should be easier to achieve.

#40 Gas Guzzler

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Posted 12 November 2016 - 07:52 AM

I'm not super worried about this change but it was arguably unnecessary. I didn't really realize cLPLs were really dominating in game right now.





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