22 replies to this topic

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

Melee combat has been discussed widely and the collision damage issues are well documented. Nevertheless Melee weapon wielding Mechs have been requested over and over and again and again. As are Quads btw.



As I have been told there was a time where you could litteraly stomp an enemy to death or ram him to kingdom and while this might have been good on paper it must have been "misused" so much, that they had to tune it down massively. You can still kick your own head in by run into a Dire Wolf leg with your Locust doing a 150 (trust me. I know. Multiple times. Shame on me.).



I admit. I am a sucker for the Hatchetman and the Axman. I like the design, that it's kinda out-of-the box, that there is that aura of the Dr. Banzai whiffing around it and basically that it feels kinda original. Art least for me it does.



I was thinking about how PGI could implement game mechanics that would not bring back the whole collision damage issue but still implement melee weapons. All in all I was aiming to NOT make melee weapons OP. So this is what my broken brain threw out:

• Melee weapons would be fixed slots. And it requires hand actuators. There might be a variant without the melee weapon (as there are Lore variants like that), but (unlike Lore I admit), the Mech won't be able to drop it. Would not make sense in a game like MWO anyway.
  
• Melee weapons would have a close-up max range of, let's say, 10-15m. Thats more of a "ficticious" value to make the calculations possible at all and might require tuning during the testing. But it basically end up as a weapon that has a certain range like any other weapon.
  
• Melee weapons are aimed like any other arm weapon but can only be used with unlocked arm aiming.
  
• Melee weapons are impacting a certain point and deliver the damage ONLY to that body part. There will be no spread. Hit the arm? It goes, but the side torso is unaffected (until you hit that afterwards ;-) )
  
• Melee weapon should have a little delay until release, kinda like Gauss rifles have (at the moment that is). You aim, pull the trigger, and a certain moment afterwards the weapon will hit where you aimed at.
  
• While we're at "trigger": Melee weapon probably should not be able to be combined with other weapons in the same weapons group. So no Alpha including the Melee weapon.
  
• Melee weapons should have quite a massive cooldown. I mean AC20 / LRM20 style. This should not turn into the Hulkbuster fastpunching (gotosleepgotosleepgotosleep!).
  
• Melee weapons should only be usable on the side they are mounted. That'll be the right side practically all the time. I do not propose that lightly ( I am a lefty) but that's just how it is. hitting targets on tn the opposing side should result in a massive dropoff of dmg done and hitting accuracy.

All in all, it's theory. No clue how it would work out in reality. I just tried to imagine melee weapons as very-short-ranged, pinpoint weapons within the existing game mechanics.

Update: Had to fix a typo that created kind of a little uproar. Honest mistake. Thx Ranger for pointing it out.

Edited by Thomster, 12 November 2016 - 06:36 AM.

[El Bandito]

Crysis series had melee, so I am sure PGI can implement melee in MWO. Still, bad hit-reg might screw it over.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Quote

Melee weapons would have a close-up max range of, let's say, 10-55m. Thats more of a "ficticious" value to make the calculations possible at all and might require tuning during the testing. But it basically end up as a weapon that has a certain range like any other weapon.

55m ? whats is this ? al lance ?today all whining , thats many maps nt good for brawl , with Melee, I´m afraid , many more Rambo-ZombiesKillers run from start to enemy to fight only in melee ...thats so COOL ......Thats Mechwarrior, not Mount&Blade ...Melee Weapons only good in very rare Situations (urbanfights, no ammo ...)...3 t for a Axe ? or Sword or better for 3 DHS ,3 Medium lasers or 3 t ammo ?1Melee as Mainfight more like Gundam and a Great fun for Solaris Battles or in Cityfights

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 12 November 2016 - 06:21 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

They can't even make proper mech-mech and mech-terrain collisions, let alone fix hit reg and you guys want melee? ...

[Kuaron]

Yes, it would only work on an abstract level, like very close-range shooting.
We need decent collision with collision effects (falling over and stuff) first.

Also, to avoid what Old Ranger said, melee would need to mainly damage structure but be ineffective on armour. If would concur in the machine gun niche – MGs for either very light or armless Mechs, and melee weapons as a heavier and even more short-range solution for the heavier ones.

[martian]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 12 November 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

55m ? whats is this ? al lance ?today all whining , thats many maps nt good for brawl , with Melee, I´m afraid , many more Rambo-ZombiesKillers run from start to enemy to fight only in melee ...thats so COOL ......

Do not blame the [Melee] weapon, blame the idiot in the cockpit who decided to charge the enemy alone, without even using the terrain or buldings to cover his approach..

In BattleTech you must know when to use your Melee weapon and when to use your other - long ranged - weapons.

Old MW4 Ranger, on 12 November 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

Thats Mechwarrior, not Mount&Blade ...Melee Weapons only good in very rare Situations (urbanfights, no ammo ...)...3 t for a Axe ? or Sword or better for 3 DHS ,3 Medium lasers or 3 t ammo ?1Melee as Mainfight more like Gundam and a Great fun for Solaris Battles

I can only say that I have been in many situations when I desperately wished to either have a Melee weapon on my 'Mech, or at least have the ability to make a physical attack.

For example, when I was sitting in an overheating 'Mech in the central caldera on Terra Therma with the enemy 'Mech just in front of me, but I did not dare to fire because even the smallest heat buildup would result in immediate shutdown of my 'Mech.

In BL-9-KNT "Clanbuster", I would solve the situation with one swing of my multi-ton Hatchet. Or even one or two punches would be enough for me in that moment.

Unfortunately, I was in BL-6b-KNT that has it's zombie-like arms just for parade.

[Bombast]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 12 November 2016 - 06:04 AM, said:

55m ? whats is this ? al lance ?today all whining , thats many maps nt good for brawl , with Melee, I´m afraid , many more Rambo-ZombiesKillers run from start to enemy to fight only in melee ...thats so COOL ......Thats Mechwarrior, not Mount&Blade ...Melee Weapons only good in very rare Situations (urbanfights, no ammo ...)...3 t for a Axe ? or Sword or better for 3 DHS ,3 Medium lasers or 3 t ammo ?1Melee as Mainfight more like Gundam and a Great fun for Solaris Battles or in Cityfights

As for melee in MWO... I just don't see it working too well. There's a lot of problems with the game that would make using them difficult (Collision models being perhaps the biggest one), their highly situational, and ultimately, I think they wouldn't be fun. I'm imagining that they'd have the Elder Scrolls problem, where there's no feed back and it doesn't feel like you're meleeing at all.

Then again, presumably, any melee patch would be released in tandem with the original axe mech MechPack, the Hatchetman, which HBS could use. So screw it, sign me up.

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

PhoenixFire55, on 12 November 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

They can't even make proper mech-mech and mech-terrain collisions, let alone fix hit reg and you guys want melee? ...

There's no reason nor argument, not to want something. An argument can be made why it could be naïve to expect it to happen :-) As I said, it was fueled by my unlogical but deep desire to see my favourite pet Mech in BT walk the Battlefields of MWO :-)

The notion that an Melee Weapon would attack structure rather than armor is quite an interesting one. The hitbox argument is tough as well. I can imagine you could club an Arctic Cheetah for 10 minutes before hitting it properly once. ;-)

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

From another topic:

I would rework the legs/feet and the left arm/hand a little, but otherwise it kinda oozes dangerous agilty ;-)

Soku Yamashita, on 30 April 2016 - 07:38 AM, said:

HCT-3F Hatchetman

3rd Hussar's, Free Rasalhague Republic


Source
http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Hatchetman

Camo
http://camospecs.com.../88/3rd-hussars

It has been awhile since I did any Battletech art, been real busy at work, but I had 2 days sick leave, so yay! Hope you guys like my Hatchetman rendition. Hopefully I get to do more, maybe on my next day off!

Older Work
https://www.mechspec...as-hangar.3429/

DeviantArt
http://giorgioespinos.deviantart.com/

Edited by Thomster, 12 November 2016 - 06:48 AM.

[FLG 01]

As long as the use of melee weaponry is restricted to certain Mechs by creating a new hardpoint class just for hatchets, swords etc., I do not see a great problem. People might do idiotic things... so what? Welcome to video gaming. Implemented properly it might turn out enriching the game.

[Bombast]

Thomster, on 12 November 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

SNIP

[Mister Bob Dobalina]

FLG 01, on 12 November 2016 - 06:52 AM, said:

As long as the use of melee weaponry is restricted to certain Mechs by creating a new hardpoint class just for hatchets, swords etc., I do not see a great problem. People might do idiotic things... so what? Welcome to video gaming. Implemented properly it might turn out enriching the game.

Cyclops comes with the C3 computer and that's a standalone feature for this Mech at this time. It's hardwired, you can't get rid of it and you can't get it for any other Mech. So in that area, precedence is already made :-)

[Yosharian]

No.

The engine can't handle it.

PhoenixFire55, on 12 November 2016 - 06:07 AM, said:

They can't even make proper mech-mech and mech-terrain collisions, let alone fix hit reg and you guys want melee? ...

Exactly.

Edited by Yosharian, 12 November 2016 - 06:58 AM.

[NighthawK1337]

NECRO!!!!!

I was gonna make a new post but since there's already a topic, I'm just gonna post it here. I was reading the BattleTech(2017) updates and read their whole post about melee.

HBS put it nicely why we should have melee.
https://www.kickstar...h/posts/1768032

"once you’re close enough to punch someone, punching should usually be the right thing to do (or at the very least, it shouldn’t ever be the wrong thing to do). There are a few reasons for this, mostly having to do with the speed and intensity of battles. When battles get in close, it’s not all that much fun to spin in circles around each other, trying to get a good back-shot but otherwise standing mostly in one place. I wanted the final stage of a battle, when ‘Mechs are in spitting distance of each other, to be brutal and decisive. Once you’re that close, the fight’s about to be over one way or another."

Come on PGI, do you want to get beat by HBS? Melee would add a fresh breath of air in the game.

[Brenden]

For anyone wondering, this is what Melee used to look like in Mechwarrior Online. Note how the Hunchback's hand actuators open up to assist in pushing him up off the ground. Those models must still exist somewhere in the game.

[Karl Streiger]

Brenden, on 31 January 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

For anyone wondering, this is what Melee used to look like in Mechwarrior Online. Note how the Hunchback's hand actuators open up to assist in pushing him up off the ground. Those models must still exist somewhere in the game.

pls stop posting videos of closed beta - they make me cry

Edited by Karl Streiger, 01 February 2017 - 01:55 AM.

[BluefireMW]

NO! it will never happen to this game. PGI will never change the programmed code in this way, ever.

[Guile Votoms]

Brenden, on 31 January 2017 - 09:05 PM, said:

For anyone wondering, this is what Melee used to look like in Mechwarrior Online. Note how the Hunchback's hand actuators open up to assist in pushing him up off the ground. Those models must still exist somewhere in the game.

Is it just me or does this look and sound way better than the current build?
Way better looking heat vision, beefier impact sounds, better looking target info
and of course the collision knockdowns which would be amazing to have.

Makes me sad I only found out about this game 3 months ago.

[Bud Crue]

Guile Votoms, on 01 February 2017 - 04:24 AM, said:

Is it just me or does this look and sound way better than the current build?
Way better looking heat vision, beefier impact sounds, better looking target info
and of course the collision knockdowns which would be amazing to have.

Makes me sad I only found out about this game 3 months ago.

There is a lot of history here. LSS: They reduced graphics and other system intensive aspects so that the minimum requirements for running the eventual game were more in keeping with a wider range of systems (laptops) to maximize the potential player base.

But yeah, when I first looked in on this game all those years ago, there is no way my machine at the time could have played it. So on the one hand I am grateful that they went that route, on the other...yeah that game does look pretty sweet.

As to the obvious super high TTK that that game has (as opposed to the current game) that too has a lot of history and PGI's "vision" of the current game being pushed more toward an arena shooter/e-sport franchise rather than its originally advertised vision of an "immersive" BT/MW vision. As to Melee and knockdowns, I am sure someone will soon post the great dragon bowling video (look it up if no one does) which resulted in that aspect of the game being taken from us forever (at least knockdowns).

Anyway if you are really interested there are lots of articles, interviews and youtube videos out there that get into the nitty gritty of this stuff.

[Karl Streiger]

Bud Crue, on 01 February 2017 - 04:48 AM, said:

There is a lot of history here. LSS: They reduced graphics and other system intensive aspects so that the minimum requirements for running the eventual game were more in keeping with a wider range of systems (laptops) to maximize the potential player base.

But yeah, when I first looked in on this game all those years ago, there is no way my machine at the time could have played it. So on the one hand I am grateful that they went that route, on the other...yeah that game does look pretty sweet.

As to the obvious super high TTK that that game has (as opposed to the current game) that too has a lot of history and PGI's "vision" of the current game being pushed more toward an arena shooter/e-sport franchise rather than its originally advertised vision of an "immersive" BT/MW vision. As to Melee and knockdowns, I am sure someone will soon post the great dragon bowling video (look it up if no one does) which resulted in that aspect of the game being taken from us forever (at least knockdowns).

Anyway if you are really interested there are lots of articles, interviews and youtube videos out there that get into the nitty gritty of this stuff.

I played the game on the same "Laptop" then and now. Performance doesn't feel any better now, not to mention the "look".

There were FPS issues from time to time but mainly because of server connections, and hit reg of course sometimes you didn't hit or shots didn't connect or you need the "eyes" of another guy with better ping to correct your fire - and lag shooting was a thing too but those "burdens" could be managed.
It became non manageable when they dropped "knockdown" and added "ECM" - suddenly the lights were unstopable - were as in the CB with knockdown you simple did run a CN9-AL with >300XL engine 4 MLAS and 2 Streaks to hunt them down. (Commando with double SRM6 was an Atlas Killer)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 01 February 2017 - 05:30 AM.