139 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Tristan Winter, on 14 November 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

I honestly have no idea.

But when EmpyreaL (?) used the SDR-5K in the world championship, I'm pretty sure Paul felt vindicated in believing that MGs have been perfectly balanced this whole time.

The part he is forgetting is that spider has F*CKING 20% RoF buff for the machine guns.

How they fail to notice that there is a relation between mechs that do good with MGs and that specific quirk is beyond me.

If mechs with MG RoF quirk are doing good, that should tell you something as a game designer... no?

F*CK!

[Weaselball]

FupDup, on 14 November 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

Do you have any source that says that the Battletech mech-mounted MG is 50 caliber?

The BT MG is 500 kilos in mass, while the M2 Browning is 58 kilos when fully decked out. Where do those 442 extra kilos go?

"Space magic" is what I tell myself to sleep soundly at night. That's where all the mass goes.

[Tristan Winter]

FupDup, on 14 November 2016 - 06:06 PM, said:

Do you have any source that says that the Battletech mech-mounted MG is 50 caliber?

The BT MG is 500 kilos in mass, while the M2 Browning is 58 kilos when fully decked out. Where do those 442 extra kilos go?

Prevalent MG apologist logic is that it's 442 kilos of gyros, hydraulics, targeting equipment, etc.

Navid A1, on 14 November 2016 - 06:07 PM, said:

The part he is forgetting is that spider has F*CKING 20% RoF buff for the machine guns.
How they fail to notice that there is a relation between mechs that do good with MGs and that specific quirk is beyond me.
If mechs with MG RoF quirk are doing good, that should tell you something as a game designer... no?
F*CK!

It should. But then again, we're talking about the people who gave the Warhammer and CPLT-K2 ballistic quirks instead of MG ROF quirks, and the people who prefer making PPCs viable by handing out 50% projectile speed quirks (!) to a tiny selection of mechs in order to make PPCs viable.

I'm just waiting for them to figure out how to make jump jet quirks, so they don't actually have to buff jump jets.

[Legionary Titus Pullo]

They probably had machine guns added into the game for one reason. Alot of mechs come with them stock, and its easier to put a placeholder weapon then think about any alternative in its place. But that makes me wonder, do any clan mechs come with cAC stock?

[FupDup]

Rezn0I2, on 14 November 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

But that makes me wonder, do any clan mechs come with cAC stock?

No.

[Mcgral18]

N0MAD, on 14 November 2016 - 05:53 PM, said:

Why would you expect an MG to be useful against an armored vehicle? really why? and if so why not have a magic wand? its about as realistic as having an MG be useful against armor.

Jingseng, on 14 November 2016 - 06:04 PM, said:

Because a mech is a 20+ TON nuclear powered mountain of military grade armored metal. And this is not call of duty.

10,000 lbs. of steel. vs. .50cal hmg.

I mean what, it's like asking why snipers didn't just take out all the tank pilots in ww2 by shooting straight through the tank.

Here is a half ton Earth gun


Imagine what a FutureTech™ half ton gun could do
This cuts through (older) tanks.

[Cabusha3]

There never WAS a 6MG spider. The damn thing has only ever had a max of 4.

What we did get was a brief patch where the crit chance was good and the damage was good too. And there were no weight limits in drops so everyone was running around in assault mechs. And everyone stripped leg armor, put ammo in there, and nobody used case. Guess what? 700+ damage rounds because of ammo explosions that would rip the fatties apart.

And then it got nerfed. Nevermind that as a spider pilot with 1MPL and 4MGs, I had to be at suicide range. And this was before quirks so one lucky AC-20 round would cripple me.

But no, they were nerfed on damage and crits, and the MGs have never recovered.

And now today half the mechs in the game are Clanners with free case in every location, so the MGs are useless. To bring them back, you have to at least buff damage or crits, minimum, and strip the free case from Clans. Because a weapon that's only marginally effective against IS mechs will still be useless overall.

Edited by Cabusha3, 14 November 2016 - 06:22 PM.

[Bulletsponge0]

Mcgral18, on 14 November 2016 - 06:15 PM, said:

Here is a half ton Earth gun


Imagine what a FutureTech™ half ton gun could do
This cuts through (older) tanks.

that is closer to 1/4 ton gun than a half ton gun....so closer to a clan MG than an IS MG

[Navid A1]

Bryan Ekman @ ATD 35 said:

CCQ 3: Why is Machine Gun damage so low?
A: Partly due to the nature of how MGs work in the TT rules, partially due to how we chose to make it useful. When equipping a MG, keep in mind that it is not meant to burn through armor but is very useful for tearing up internals (crits). Bumping MG damage will turn it into a laser that can be kept on with no heat penalty until it runs out of ammo. Now imagine the devastating effect that a 6 MG spider could do to the back of an Atlas! We are still investigating balance of the MG but don’t expect any significant increase in damage.

In this example, Bryan says that bumping up the MG damage is like turning those into a continous firing laser that only turns off when it is out of ammo.


Lets for a moment assume that a spider with 6 MGs exists. A spider with 6 of those machine guns (before the nerf) would have been able to output 6 dps up to the optimum range of 120m (with cof).
Now imagine the said spider going for the back of that unsuspecting atlas sitting over there. The spider would need about 10 second of constant MG fire from (literally) point blank directly to the rear CT.

If the atlas pilot possess half a brain and starts turning and twisting, that time will go even higher than a minute and that is assuming the atlas not firing back. It should also be noted that firing your MGs that close to the atlas means constant face time and danger of being insta-fcked by that scary AC20+SRM combo.

Appearantly, that kind of situation is a "Devastaing Effect" against the atlas... according to Bryan.



Now... Can anyone here tell me, by what standard the same devs at PGI think the devastation a single oxide or jenner-IIC or a cheetah can do to THE F*CKING FACE OF the said atlas is OK?
I mean... currently we have lights that can finish off assault mechs in 2 salvos without needing face time or sneaking, and sometimes even head-on!.

By what standard PGI thinks bumping the MG damage from 0.08 to 0.1 or 0.12 is somehow more dangerous than the giga-alpha jenner-iic that is running around?

[Deathlike]

The best answer is the obvious answer.... somehow an MG Spider (though most likely Ember at the time) touched our balance overlord's mech in all the wrong places.

[Weaselball]

Navid A1, on 14 November 2016 - 06:44 PM, said:

Now... Can anyone here tell me, by what standard the same devs at PGI think the devastation a single oxide or jenner-IIC or a cheetah can do to THE F*CKING FACE OF the said atlas is OK?
I mean... currently we have lights that can finish off assault mechs in 2 salvos without needing face time or sneaking, and sometimes even head-on!.

By what standard PGI thinks bumping the MG damage from 0.08 to 0.1 or 0.12 is somehow more dangerous than the giga-alpha jenner-iic that is running around?

This is my point exactly. Assuming they doubled the damage of the machine gun, it isn't likely that people will be jumping ship from Jenner2c's, or ultra-wub Arctic Cheetahs, or the small pulse Locusts. All it will do, really, is MAYBE make other light mechs and light builds viable. Might do the same for some of the lighter mediums also.

I mentioned it earlier, but a damage buff for the machine gun isn't going to result in everyone suddenly boating machine guns. They'll still be pretty lackluster compared to high-alpha weapons, but they won't be AS garbage as they are know, and isn't that something that almost everyone in the game wants? A bit more diversity in weapon loadouts isn't a bad thing.

Edited by Weaselball, 14 November 2016 - 07:14 PM.

[Dee Eight]

Asking for any sort of accuracy of translating a table top game rules system to a video game system, where they didn't even keep the original weapon ranges EXCEPT for flamers and SRMs / S-SRMs, and totally ignored the fact that a thousand years from now, walking tanks are unable to deal any damage to a target beyond 600 meters. Well... that's just wishful thinking. Hell if you think PGI got it bad when converting TT rules/values you should have played the wizkids clix version.

[Tibbnak]

Tristan Winter, on 14 November 2016 - 05:58 PM, said:

I honestly have no idea.

But when EmpyreaL (?) used the SDR-5K in the world championship, I'm pretty sure Paul felt vindicated in believing that MGs have been perfectly balanced this whole time.

If a terrible blacksmith makes a blunt sword,
that a master proceeds to slowly bludgeon a foe to death with,
does that blacksmith take pride in their work?

[Tristan Winter]

Tibbnak, on 14 November 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

If a terrible blacksmith makes a blunt sword,
that a master proceeds to slowly bludgeon a foe to death with,
does that blacksmith take pride in their work?

We're talking about a blacksmith who finds a blunt sword and then proceeds to blunt his daggers in order to normalize them.

[Deathlike]

Tristan Winter, on 14 November 2016 - 08:14 PM, said:

We're talking about a blacksmith who finds a blunt sword and then proceeds to blunt his daggers in order to normalize them.

The word of the day is "normalize".

[Tarogato]

Mcgral18, on 14 November 2016 - 05:47 PM, said:

By the way, might you know the way MG deals damage?

Does it deal X% damage directly at the center, and fans out to 0% at the extents of the cone? Or does it fire 0.08 damage pulses that just individually fire at a random location within the cone? Does it favour the center of the cone more, or is it an even distribution?

[RestosIII]

Deathlike, on 14 November 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

The word of the day is "normalize".

"You're going to eat the letter, aren't you?"

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 14 November 2016 - 08:20 PM, said:

The word of the day is "normalize".

Most abused word in MWO, even beating out "salty".

[Navy Sixes]

Because, when coupled with the straight-garbage status of the AC/2 and sorry ammo-per-ton, someone at PGI obviously has it in for lights and mediums with more than one ballistic slot.

[RestosIII]

Tycho von Gagern, on 14 November 2016 - 08:32 PM, said:

Because, when coupled with the straight-garbage status of the AC/2 and sorry ammo-per-ton, someone at PGI obviously has it in for lights and mediums with more than one a ballistic slot.

FTFY.