102 replies to this topic

[Mcgral18]

KoalaBrownie, on 20 November 2016 - 12:14 AM, said:

No opponent I flank decides how effective my UAC is.

Again, I'll go say Potato
If you twist, cACs spread

Gauss doesn't

Zergling, on 20 November 2016 - 12:22 AM, said:

I believe Mcgral is arguing that the PPC buff was so minor as to be worthless.

Inconsequential may be a better term.

[Zergling]

Also, while cACs certainly can do all their damage to a single location, it is considerably easier to do so with Gauss.

[KoalaBrownie]

Mcgral18, on 20 November 2016 - 12:28 AM, said:

Again, I'll go say Potato

And I'll say Turnip.
Then I'll say Rhubarb, Strawberry and Avocado.

Do I win?

Mcgral18, on 20 November 2016 - 12:28 AM, said:

If you twist, cACs spread

Gauss doesn't

No it doesn't spread, it just hits the wrong location. Or you hold fire and don't hit him at all.
Spread the damage out in one hit or in two hits, the result is the same.

[davoodoo]

Zergling, on 19 November 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Which is honestly a bad idea for a game that aims to be balanced.

Shs...
Then also lurm20 lbx.
Bigger racks were nerfed to preserve viability of smaller racks, to the point where nobody uses lurm20 if they can avoid it
Also lbx which should be outright superior to regular ammo AC is now gimped into crit seeking shotgun with crits nerfed into oblivion

And even then uac got quite a few drawbacks like jams, increased ammo usage, spread dmg, extra slot and ton.
Gains simply outweighs drawbacks.

Regular acs should either get spec ammo or they should be relegated to mechs which cant fit Ultras.

Also clan acs have higher cd to not obsolete lbx. You see a pattern yet? Newer weapons are intentionally broken so old weapons can be used

[Duke Nedo]

Mcgral18, on 20 November 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

That's called spread damage, genius



So, opinions
Is this guy a Troll or a top tier Potato?
He's thick, I'll give him that

Not dumb, just less experienced I guess.

In any case, cUACs and Gauss should have different roles and comparing them directly as to which is best should not give you one clear answer. If it does, if Gauss is better in every situation, then balance is completely broken.

As it is now, Gauss has some ~3 dps @ 12 tons and cUAC10 has some 5+ dps @ 10 tons but spreads damage (jam rate and duration is included in that dps). That dps is unreliable in nature for a single double-tap though and will grant you either near 100% dps boost (most of the time) or a 100% weapon lockout (less often). I guess that's the biggest problem people has with them. I still believe people are over-reacting a bit over this. You can't expect no jams and near 100% dps boost for free (or for the cost of 1 ton for IS UACs). There has to be a catch and it has to be real.

This is still no ghost mechanic in the sense that 6 UAC shots have the same dps whether it's a DWF firing 6 cUAC5s or it's 6 adders firing 6 sUAC5's, or its 1 adder firing 1 cUAC5 6 times. It's all about dps redundancy and then, in my head, it doesn't matter if you have backup lasers or backup UACs or (main weapon) SRMs for a SB for example.

I think this change puts UACs better in balance to each other, the different flavors of UACs, and in better balance vs both laser vomit and ACs. The real question for me is if now Gauss and PPCs needs a minor nerf to cooldown, say 10%, to put the play styles in better balance.

[Gaden Phoenix]

I think has been said many times.

Just increase jam chance, with the amount of UACs that you boat. 1 UAC standard chance. 2 UAC + 2%, 3 UAC +3%, 4 UAC +5%, etc.

[Zergling]

Gaden Phoenix, on 20 November 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

I think has been said many times.

Just increase jam chance, with the amount of UACs that you boat. 1 UAC standard chance. 2 UAC + 2%, 3 UAC +3%, 4 UAC +5%, etc.

I suspect PGI wouldn't be able to code something like that.

They'd be more likely to do something stupid like put all cUACs into a single linked ghost heat group, which would screw over any build running more than 2x UAC2/5s.

Edited by Zergling, 20 November 2016 - 01:31 AM.

[chucklesMuch]

TWIAFU, on 19 November 2016 - 04:52 AM, said:

So, the lemmings all follow the UAC boating path. UAC get nerf'd. Lemmings cry that UAC's are worthless and need to be removed from the game.

Lemmings plan a new path, Gauss/ERPPC Boating.

Unless your really new to online gaming or are one of those people that only have an 8 second attention span and the memory to match, history has shown again and again (not just in MWO) that when lemmings follow the path of least resistance, that path get's nerf'd.

If this is the new lemming path for dual gauss/erppc, we should expect a nerf to gauss and/or PPC after the lemmings jump on the bandwagon and cry when the nerf finally hits.

Only to repeat the process.

I can’t speak for lemmings and UAC’s aren’t worthless… they do seem to be much less desirable to use, outside of boating them, than pre-nerf. I like to reduce random chance options in my gaming so I’m personally going to look for an alternative for non boating variants/builds. (I remember way to many dice games where I have rolled stupid amounts of jam’s/ones etc).

Well before the uac nerfs hit dual gauss/ppc has been growing in use/popularity… making most of the ultras worse is only going to encourage more of this… min/maxing is common in all games whether digital or pen/pen/dice… we need more equally strong, viable options not less…

Unless there is a better balance system in place yes this is just going to repeat itself… we can all look forward to the day when there really is another Lrmageddon (maybe ECM will get nerfed and Radar Derp removed alongside LRMS having things like improved (vertical) firing arc’s, and or airburst, or some game changing option(s)... inside of a new LRM buffing skill tree).

I used to think that the forum posters must be exaggerating in their horror stories about the dartboard of balance in this game… I was wrong.

Edited by chucklesMuch, 21 November 2016 - 03:47 AM.

[Jun Watarase]

KoalaBrownie, on 19 November 2016 - 11:13 PM, said:

Point is if you have a single UAC and it jams, you either need to switch to back ups or just duck into cover until it clears again in the same way you might if you're too high up the heat-scale. It can be inconvenient sure, but most mechs with a single UAC will either have the speed to break contact or the tonnage to fire something else. If you have neither just stick with some lancemates and duck behind them or pull back when your weapon jams and rejoin when it clears.

Yes you can have backup weapons, but all other factors being equal, they are not going to save you (unless your opponent is also using a UAC which also jams at the same time). People generally dont like their survival to be dependant on a RNG factor like their weapon jamming, especially when there are superior, non-jamming weapons.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Gaden Phoenix, on 20 November 2016 - 01:19 AM, said:

I think has been said many times. Just increase jam chance, with the amount of UACs that you boat. 1 UAC standard chance. 2 UAC + 2%, 3 UAC +3%, 4 UAC +5%, etc.

Yeah I agree with this and even mentioned it as a balancing mechanic. Makes sense too. Since each additional UAC is trying to draw ammo from the same magazine, of course the chance for jams would be larger and require longer to clear. Start at 10% jam chance and 5 second delay for a Single UAC, then up the chance of jam by 7% and the recover dely by 3 seconds for each UAC of the same caliber added. This would bring the KDK-3 mounting dual UAC/10s and UAC/5s up to the current 17% chance 8 second delay. KDK-3 mounting 4 UAC/10s or 4 UAC/5s would suffer a 38% jam chance and 14 seconds of jam. No one would boat 3-4 UACs at that point and the problem would be solved without crippling builds relying on single UACs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Jun Watarase, on 20 November 2016 - 06:49 PM, said:

Yes you can have backup weapons, but all other factors being equal, they are not going to save you (unless your opponent is also using a UAC which also jams at the same time). People generally dont like their survival to be dependant on a RNG factor like their weapon jamming, especially when there are superior, non-jamming weapons.

Yep you hit the nail on the head. Case in point, I run one of my Linebackers with 4 ER ML and a UAC/10. I got into a brawl with an Atlas relatively late game and got both my arms taken off leaving me with only my torso mounted UAC/10 and 1 ER ML. In the process of the fight, my UAC/10 apparently Jammed so there I am trying to kill an Altas in a close range brawl with just a single ER ML while waiting 10 second for my UAC to be available again. 10 seconds is an eternity in those situations and you can't have sometime as major 40% of your DPS offline for 10 seconds when that happens. The honest truth is, it was such a tense fight that I totally thought my UAC had gotten destroyed because it fired a total of 1 round before jamming. It wasn't until somehow I managed to win that brawl (guess the Atlas was more hurt than I thought), that I realized my UAC wasn't destroyed and had came back online but that just underscores the problem of it jamming so much and having such a huge delay.

[Deathlike]

All I will say is this...

#rememberwhoisyourbalanceoverlord
#thanksPGI

[Navid A1]

Mcgral18, on 20 November 2016 - 12:56 AM, said:

That's called spread damage, genius



So, opinions
Is this guy a Troll or a top tier Potato?
He's thick, I'll give him that

Sadly there has been an influx of raw potatoes into the forums lately.
Badly misinformed.
Highly stubborn.
And weak white knights.

Edited by Navid A1, 20 November 2016 - 11:18 PM.

[Kmieciu]

Viktor Drake, on 20 November 2016 - 07:43 PM, said:

I got into a brawl with an Atlas

Pro tip. Do not double-tap when brawling 1v1.
UAC10 have better DPS than Gauss, even if you don't use the second burst. They also are more heat efficient than SRMs so your best bet is to last long enough that the enemy Atlas will get too hot to fire them.

Mcgral18, on 20 November 2016 - 12:28 AM, said:

If you twist, cACs spread.

When you engage fast targets at 500+ meters, UAC10 are less pinpoint then Gauss. But in a poking-war they can deliver 20 damage, for 2 tonnes less and the with 50 more damage per ton of ammo. If you predict where someone is going to poke, you can put all that damage on a single component.
Besides. Nothing is more frustrating than an enemy with cherry- red CT that torso twists at the last moment so that your Gauss slug hits his fresh side torso.

In a brawl, UAC10s win against both Gauss and ERML/LPL/LL vomit. UAC10 burst takes what, 0,22 second? ERML 1,15 duration feels like eternity. One could argue that even C-SPL spreads the damage more because of the 0,75 second duration...

Edited by Kmieciu, 21 November 2016 - 12:23 AM.

[Archangel.84]

Zergling, on 19 November 2016 - 01:50 PM, said:

Which is honestly a bad idea for a game that aims to be balanced.

"A bad idea" is having standard Clan ACs at all. They've never had standard ACs - it was Ultras, or LBX, both of which were a straight upgrade over the standard AC. The Ultra could fire double the shells, and the LBX could switch between standard slug and shotgun. The existence of "standard Clan ACs" is probably the biggest "WTF is this?!?!" in the game.

[KoalaBrownie]

Archangel.84, on 21 November 2016 - 09:01 AM, said:

"A bad idea" is having standard Clan ACs at all. They've never had standard ACs - it was Ultras, or LBX, both of which were a straight upgrade over the standard AC. The Ultra could fire double the shells, and the LBX could switch between standard slug and shotgun. The existence of "standard Clan ACs" is probably the biggest "WTF is this?!?!" in the game.

So mechs having double the armour, structure and increased ammunition loads doesn't bother you, but improved clan versions of standard ACs does? Okay dude. Way to pick your battles.

I think a bigger WTF is hitting a Locust with multiple Gauss rifle rounds and not seeing it turn into confetti.

[Templar Dane]

KoalaBrownie, on 21 November 2016 - 10:26 AM, said:

So mechs having double the armour, structure and increased ammunition loads doesn't bother you, but improved clan versions of standard ACs does? Okay dude. Way to pick your battles.

I think a bigger WTF is hitting a Locust with multiple Gauss rifle rounds and not seeing it turn into confetti.

They are worse than the UACs in practically every single way. They are a pointless, forgotten placeholder.

[Anakha]

I think the consensus here that I was trying to relay to PGI is that their balance change for UAC's has had a major impact on single use UAC builds but hardly effected 2+ uac dakka boats. I also think they need to put in place some type of balance for jam chance and/or duration based on the number of UAC's you are running. When running only 1 it should not jam as often or as long. When you only mount 1 UAC and it is your main big weapon having a 10+ second jam is not playable. It is also NOT fun to play. So hopefully they will reevaluate it and balance it better.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Kmieciu, on 21 November 2016 - 12:21 AM, said:

Pro tip. Do not double-tap when brawling 1v1. UAC10 have better DPS than Gauss, even if you don't use the second burst. They also are more heat efficient than SRMs so your best bet is to last long enough that the enemy Atlas will get too hot to fire them.

Pro tip. When your in a brawl with a Atlas and are so severely damaged that your yellow cored and missing both arms and over half your weapons, you need every bit of DPS you can muster. That is exactly when you should be double-tapping because you need every ounce of DPS you can muster. The unfortunate part is that in that situation with the UAC10 (and other UACs) whether you survive or not ends up having very little to do with skill, rather its all up to the RNG gods to dictate. I survived that brawl because one of my teammates was lending me assistance from afar and help soften up that Atlas. I might have survived without the assistance if my UAC/10 had actually been functional and firing when I needed it to fire.

Also aside from balance there is another factor that needs to be taken into account. That is the "Fun Factor". Seriously having your UAC jammed and unusable half the match isn't fun. This is a game and games are supposed to be fun. If the UAC need to be balanced, find a way that doesn't make them painful to use.

[The Zohan]

Just as expected, this nerf affects mostly mechs not named Kodiak 3. These still run amok. Its beyond me how people in here can seriously defend such a terribad bandaid. EIGHT damn seconds jam is to damn long.