108 replies to this topic

[Duke Nedo]

Kmieciu, on 21 November 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

In this case "stream of bullets" means two projectiles fired with a 0.11 second delay. IS version might be a little better at legging lights, but if you target the C-UAC5 torso, it's almost as pinpoint.

The small size makes it a winner, though. You can have 2 of them in the side torso together with an XL engine, or in one arm.

Aye, but there also that you can't fire the second shot before the first "stream" has left the barrel, isn't that so? That makes it a total of 0.22 secs to get all pellets away, and even more noticeable for cUAC10s. Anyways, not crippling, but personally I prefer the IS UACs by a bit if I can choose. All in all that balances the difference in size quite OKish imo.

I've preached quite a bit in this thread, but I feel the UACs are quite nicely balanced towards other UACs and ACs now, as well as to SRMs and laserboating. It's really only PPCs/Gauss that may have too high rate of fire so that they become too good weapons at medium range. If weapons have roles:

SRMS: closest range, highest sustained dps, no facetime, spread FLD
UAC/ACs: medium range, high sustained dps, little facetime and spread (clan UACs stream), low heat
PPC/Gauss: long range, low dps, no facetime, PPFLD
Laservomit: varied range, burst dps by heat, facetime depending on range, hitscan DOT
+ a few niche/fun/joke weapons like AC2, LBX, LRM, Flamers, machineguns etc.

...and if 3 out of 4 are well balanced towards each other and 1 dominates (PPFLD), then just reduce the DPS a bit to reinforce it's role. If the 8 seconds jam is too long, just tune it by compensating shorter duration with higher chance.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 21 November 2016 - 05:20 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Kmieciu, on 21 November 2016 - 01:25 AM, said:

There was a time, when the jam chance was affected by the period between shots. The longer you waited before firing the second time, the lower the chance for a jam.
Players exploited that with a macro that fired the second shot at the very end of the cooldown and basically got double DPS with close to 0 chance of jam.

That has been fixed long before clan invasion, though.

I don't remember that, but I do remember the straight up 1.1s recycle VS 1.5

Macro that (holding = double tap) and you've got a 100% superior Dakka

I always double tapped. That had the same 15% jam chance we had, for a time

[PhoenixFire55]

Kmieciu, on 21 November 2016 - 04:32 AM, said:

LCT-1E has been nerfed into oblivion. It has 0 torso structure quirks.
You can have your 24 damage @ 127 meters. You'll be dead before you can overheat.

Completely missing the point, are we? ... Your "dead before overheat" is entirely irrelevant in 99% of actual game situations where using its speed and terrain Locust can easily dictate the range and manner of engagement to nearly any mech. A quad IS UAC5 boat used to be able to dish out ~15 DPS while investing >40t into weapons and ammo without heating all that much. This apparently was deemed OP and UACs got nerfed. However, Locust with 6SPLs is able to dish out ~12 DPS while investing 6 tons into weapons and on a cold map it doesn't overheat at all. And that (20t tin can with 6t of weapons dishing out 120 dmg in 10 seconds) apparently is considered Fine^TM. Your argument about ranges and structure quirks is also nice and all, but shooting KGC / Cyclops at ~500m is actually easier than shooting a Locust at ~100m, and structure quirks on Locusts are irrelevant, because as soon as something FLD actually hits it - its game over either way. Any capable Locust pilot won't ever engage from an angle where enemy mech can actually shoot it tho.

For the record, I'm not advocating for yet another lighst nerf, just pointing out exactly how dumb this entire "balancing" is.

[Kali Rinpoche]

This is a perfect time to put some diversity back into your one trick pony weapon systems builds. I rarely run more that 2 UAC b.c of personal preference. There are plenty of great builds for your KDK 3's that don't rely on all UACs.

[FupDup]

Kali Rinpoche, on 21 November 2016 - 04:23 PM, said:

This is a perfect time to put some diversity back into your one trick pony weapon systems builds. I rarely run more that 2 UAC b.c of personal preference. There are plenty of great builds for your KDK 3's that don't rely on all UACs.

"Plenty of great builds" = 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPCs

It's actually stronger than the dakka build, which is why some people aren't fans of the UAC nerfs (because it reduces competition between the builds even further).

[Angel of Annihilation]

FupDup, on 21 November 2016 - 04:39 PM, said:

"Plenty of great builds" = 2 Gauss + 2 ERPPCs

It's actually stronger than the dakka build, which is why some people aren't fans of the UAC nerfs (because it reduces competition between the builds even further).

Was going to point this out. KDK-3 is meant to Dakka because the bulk of its Hardpoints are Ballistic. I tried to think of some other builds to run on it and was kind of stumped. Ended up with 4 LB-5xs and 4 ML which is interesting but not super effective. I mean I suppose I could put PPCs and LPLs in the arms but lets face it, the KDK-3 is designed to be used with Ballistics.

[FupDup]

Viktor Drake, on 21 November 2016 - 05:04 PM, said:

Was going to point this out. KDK-3 is meant to Dakka because the bulk of its Hardpoints are Ballistic.

Well, it's actually half ballistic and half energy.

To be fair though, the ballistics are the high-mounted ones so those are emphasized (plus considering the stock build).

[DrxAbstract]

PhoenixFire55, on 21 November 2016 - 03:10 PM, said:

Completely missing the point, are we? ... Your "dead before overheat" is entirely irrelevant in 99% of actual game situations where using its speed and terrain Locust can easily dictate the range and manner of engagement to nearly any mech. A quad IS UAC5 boat used to be able to dish out ~15 DPS while investing >40t into weapons and ammo without heating all that much. This apparently was deemed OP and UACs got nerfed. However, Locust with 6SPLs is able to dish out ~12 DPS while investing 6 tons into weapons and on a cold map it doesn't overheat at all. And that (20t tin can with 6t of weapons dishing out 120 dmg in 10 seconds) apparently is considered Fine^TM. Your argument about ranges and structure quirks is also nice and all, but shooting KGC / Cyclops at ~500m is actually easier than shooting a Locust at ~100m, and structure quirks on Locusts are irrelevant, because as soon as something FLD actually hits it - its game over either way. Any capable Locust pilot won't ever engage from an angle where enemy mech can actually shoot it tho.

For the record, I'm not advocating for yet another lighst nerf, just pointing out exactly how dumb this entire "balancing" is.

As a matter of clarification: The LCT-1E is capable of 12.85 DPS maximum, will shutdown from overheating on the 12th shot standing still in frozen city, which means you get 10 consecutive shots without shutdown while moving as the 11th will shut you down...

So 10 shots for 240 damage over 18.675 seconds or 11 shots over 20 seconds on a cold map and is killed by a single Dual Gauss+ERPPC hit compared to say, my BK that does 104 damage in 3 seconds and 520 damage in 21 seconds under the same conditions, has more 2.5x the effective range and can eat several Dual Gauss+ERPPC hits while being fast enough to dictate engagement points with most opponents... Pretty bleh by comparison.

Now a 4xUAC5 mech has a maximum DPS of 29.04, slightly less with Clan UAC5s because of multiple shells, but it's roughly the same. Sure, it might average out to less with jams, but double-tapping potential is equivalent to 120dmg in 3 seconds for negligible heat and 5x the maximum effective range of the LCT-1E, realistically 7x before range really starts impacting the damage.

In total, that's 6 Tons for 24DMG, 12.85DPS (High Efficiency, Low Dissipation) vs. 34 Tons for 52DMG, 17.06DPS (Low Efficiency, High Dissipation) vs. 50 Tons for 20(40)DMG 29.04DPS (Extreme Efficiency, Low Dissipation) of weapons and supporting equipment... And only one of these builds doesn't have to deal with Overheating. Now, in a balanced combat game Mech builds across all weight classes and chassis should have comparable statistics in terms of DPS, Effective Damage per Shot, Range and Survivability; As you can see, the LCT is sub-par and the UAC Assault is leaps and bounds ahead of the other two not because the KGC is an exceptional chassis - Quite the contrary - But specifically because of UACs... And that's why they needed a nerf. Hell, even after the nerf they still have the potential for absurd damage output.

Get rid of the Jam, increase their cooldown a bit and reduce the tonnage/slots/heat of Standard/LBX AC - Done.

[Duke Nedo]

DrxAbstract, on 21 November 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

As a matter of clarification: The LCT-1E is capable of 12.85 DPS maximum, will shutdown from overheating on the 12th shot standing still in frozen city, which means you get 10 consecutive shots without shutdown while moving as the 11th will shut you down...

So 10 shots for 240 damage over 18.675 seconds or 11 shots over 20 seconds on a cold map and is killed by a single Dual Gauss+ERPPC hit compared to say, my BK that does 104 damage in 3 seconds and 520 damage in 21 seconds under the same conditions, has more 2.5x the effective range and can eat several Dual Gauss+ERPPC hits while being fast enough to dictate engagement points with most opponents... Pretty bleh by comparison.

Now a 4xUAC5 mech has a maximum DPS of 29.04, slightly less with Clan UAC5s because of multiple shells, but it's roughly the same. Sure, it might average out to less with jams, but double-tapping potential is equivalent to 120dmg in 3 seconds for negligible heat and 5x the maximum effective range of the LCT-1E, realistically 7x before range really starts impacting the damage.

In total, that's 6 Tons for 24DMG, 12.85DPS (High Efficiency, Low Dissipation) vs. 34 Tons for 52DMG, 17.06DPS (Low Efficiency, High Dissipation) vs. 50 Tons for 20(40)DMG 29.04DPS (Extreme Efficiency, Low Dissipation) of weapons and supporting equipment... And only one of these builds doesn't have to deal with Overheating. Now, in a balanced combat game Mech builds across all weight classes and chassis should have comparable statistics in terms of DPS, Effective Damage per Shot, Range and Survivability; As you can see, the LCT is sub-par and the UAC Assault is leaps and bounds ahead of the other two not because the KGC is an exceptional chassis - Quite the contrary - But specifically because of UACs... And that's why they needed a nerf. Hell, even after the nerf they still have the potential for absurd damage output.

Get rid of the Jam, increase their cooldown a bit and reduce the tonnage/slots/heat of Standard/LBX AC - Done.

Good write-up until the last sentence. You can't change the tonnage/slots on weapons, it will mess with stock builds and break the heart of those that played TT.

In any case, I think comparing locusts and dakka-crabs is beyond apples and pears, it's comparing apples and tractors. Different ranges, different mobility, different roles, different everything. IMO both are working well at the moment, none of them are OP, both are viable.

As for UAC balance vs other types.

Say we had weapon Tiers like this before, give and take a tier here and there and personal preference etc:
T1: cGauss, cERPPC, PPC, cUAC10, Gauss(-)
T2: cUAC5, UAC5, LPL, cLPL, cMPL
T3: ML, cERML(+), SRM, Flamer, cUAC20, AC20, AC5, LL. ERLL
T4: LRMs, ERPPC, SPL, AC10, cERLL
T5: LBX, Machineguns, SL, AC2, cUAC2

I would now rank them more like:
T1: cGauss, cERPPC, PPC, Gauss
T2: cUAC5(-), UAC5(-), LPL, cLPL(-), cMPL, cUAC10(-)
T3: ML, cERML(+), SRM, Flamer, cUAC20(-), AC20, AC5(-), AC2, LRM, cUAC2, LL, ERLL
T4: SPL, AC10, ERPPC(+), cERLL
T5: LBX, Machineguns, SL

So I am pretty convinced that this was a step in the right direction towards balance and variation (changed weapons moved towards T3, then you can argue about the details in this list all you want), Paul just forgot to touch the other T1 weapon: PPCs and Gauss'. He also forgot (again) LBX, machineguns, SLs and AC10s.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 22 November 2016 - 12:21 AM.

[Kmieciu]

It tried a bunch of UAC builds on a Timberwolf yesterday: 2xUAC2 5ERML, 2xUAC5 4ERML, 2xUAC10 4ERSL

I had the best results with 1xUAC10 6xERML 2JJ TC1. UAC10 gave me an extra 20 damage in a poke war, and some extra dps in a brawl when my Timber got too hot.

I like to put my UAC10 in the RT and have lower actuators in both arms for better target tracking with ERMLs. Timber Wolf is a fast mech, you have to learn to shoot on the move to make the best out of it.

I must admit, I'm pretty terrible with the 2xERPPC Gauss build. Then again, I've killed enough PUGs that tried to use that build to know it requires a lot of skill and when you get into 460 meter range my dakka-vomit melts them rather fast.

In my opinion, C-ERML is the best weapon per tonne. Works in every situation. Heck, I put 6 of them on a Kitfox and after 20 matches my average damage is 458.

[Duke Nedo]

Duke Nedo, on 21 November 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

T1: cGauss, cERPPC, PPC, Gauss
T2: cUAC5(-), UAC5(-), LPL, cLPL(-), cMPL, cUAC10(-)
T3: ML, cERML(+), SRM, Flamer, cUAC20(-), AC20, AC5(-), AC2, LRM, cUAC2
T4: SPL, AC10, ERPPC(+), cERLL
T5: LBX, Machineguns, SL

While I am at it, I'll suggest which changes I'd like to see next:

T1:.... PPC, and cERPPC: Cooldown 4.0 -> 4.5 seconds
..........cGauss: Cooldown 5.0 -> 5.5 seconds
..........Gauss: Cooldown 5.0 -> 5.2 seconds
T2:.....LPL: Duration 0.67 -> 0.75 seconds
T3:.....cUAC20: Speed 650 -> 700 m/s
..........AC5: Cooldown 1.66 -> 1.50 seconds
T4:.....SPL: Range 120 -> 150 meters
..........AC10: Range 450 -> 500 meters
..........ERPPC: Heat 13.5 -> 13
..........cERLL: Duration 1.5 -> 1.4 seconds
T5:.....LBX family: Cooldown reduced by 20% across the line
..........Machineguns: Either increase dps, or increase critting, I don't care which
..........SL: Range 150 -> 200 meters and Heat 2 -> 1.5

In general I'd also prefer if clan pulse lasers lost a little range and was buffed for duration to make them pulse-lasers, but not in a way that it changes their Tier.

Edited by Duke Nedo, 22 November 2016 - 12:35 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

DrxAbstract, on 21 November 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

As a matter of clarification: The LCT-1E is capable of 12.85 DPS maximum, will shutdown from overheating on the 12th shot standing still in frozen city, which means you get 10 consecutive shots without shutdown while moving as the 11th will shut you down...

Sure, but its details really. You can use a coolshot and get 3-4 more alphas, and when you actually aim for a specific component etc. you might have slightly longer pauses between shots and so on and so forth. 10-12 alphas is ~250 damage. More than enough to kill any mech.

DrxAbstract, on 21 November 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

So 10 shots for 240 damage over 18.675 seconds or 11 shots over 20 seconds on a cold map and is killed by a single Dual Gauss+ERPPC hit compared to say, my BK that does 104 damage in 3 seconds and 520 damage in 21 seconds under the same conditions, has more 2.5x the effective range and can eat several Dual Gauss+ERPPC hits while being fast enough to dictate engagement points with most opponents... Pretty bleh by comparison.

Lets not kid ourselves. You need to actually hit with that dual Gauss+ERPPC or whatever. I doubt anyone with half decent aim will miss your Knight, same time quite a lot of even top players won't be able to hit a non-idiot Locust with every shot. As for BlackKnight dictating engagements ... sorry, but this is just a joke. Even if you sacrifice most heat sinks and go for 385 on the fastest of them you won't breach 90kph, thats the same speed for most clan heavies, i.e. you can't dictate sh!t. A fkn UrbanMech runs faster and shoots backwards, some mechs can do 90 in reverse. And I won't even go into the discussion of IS heavies with XL engines. Especially so for a mech with the size of your KNT.

DrxAbstract, on 21 November 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

Now a 4xUAC5 mech has a maximum DPS of 29.04, slightly less with Clan UAC5s because of multiple shells, but it's roughly the same. Sure, it might average out to less with jams, but double-tapping potential is equivalent to 120dmg in 3 seconds for negligible heat and 5x the maximum effective range of the LCT-1E, realistically 7x before range really starts impacting the damage.

Potential never translates into actual tho. Realistically its hardly ever was above 30% in terms of additional DPS.

DrxAbstract, on 21 November 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

Now, in a balanced combat game Mech builds across all weight classes and chassis should have comparable statistics in terms of DPS, Effective Damage per Shot, Range and Survivability ...

Slap yourself please. Hard. This ain't Hawken or whatever else kids play nowadays. Mechs in BT/MW never were meant to be even remotely balanced in any possible way. Every mech class has its role and every mech loadout is situational. THAT is BattleTech game. Anything else is just your average CoD FPS.

Dakka beats everything in a open field mid range fight and sux azz at pokewars and everything else.
SRM sh!tstorm beats everything else inside 300m and sux azz at greater ranges.
Lights (i.e. Locusts because every other light is a medium now) > Assaults > Heavies > Mediums > Lights.
^^ This achieves game balance, not the BS you suggest with every mech doing exact same as every other mech.

Sadly the trend nowadays seems to be make every mech suck at everything. Catering to the terribads goes on and on.

In any case, please see the big picture. The fact that we are even comparing DPS on a fkn assault that dedicates 50t into weaponry with a DPS of a 20 tonner should really tell you a lot.

DrxAbstract, on 21 November 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

Get rid of the Jam, increase their cooldown a bit and reduce the tonnage/slots/heat of Standard/LBX AC - Done.

Solves nothing, only makes matters worse.
The way UACs were treated in TT makes sense. You can shoot the same way you shoot regular ACs all you want, but as soon as you take two shots per turn it gets the jam chance. Once your UAC is jammed it is jammed for the rest of the fight. I'd rather see that - lower jam chances (~2-8% depending on caliber) with indefinite jam time, but I'd be "fine" with 20-30s jam time too for the sake of crybabies and "gameplay".

[DrxAbstract]

Duke Nedo, on 21 November 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

Good write-up until the last sentence. You can't change the tonnage/slots on weapons, it will mess with stock builds and break the heart of those that played TT.

Ammo-dependent Stock builds in MWO have historically carried less-than-adequate reserves. There's nothing stopping PGI from shaving 3-4 tons off an AC2/AC5 and re-adding the weight as Ammo - It's really that simple (For Stocks that use ACs).

Duke Nedo, on 21 November 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

In any case, I think comparing locusts and dakka-crabs is beyond apples and pears, it's comparing apples and tractors. Different ranges, different mobility, different roles, different everything.

I'm aware of that, but for the sake of speaking in the same context as the guy that originally made the comparison, that's the gist of it.

Duke Nedo, on 21 November 2016 - 11:55 PM, said:

IMO both are working well at the moment, none of them are OP, both are viable.

Being viable in T4-T5(Where virtually anything would be) doesn't make them viable in T1 or Comp play. Their usefulness, like any other build, is proportional to the skill and builds of your opponents. In the case of the LCT and KGC you have two Mechs, of many, that are disproportionately affected by the capabilities of their opponents and require above-average effort to utilize relative to other Mechs.

Really though, the point is you can't rely on RNG to balance a weapon.

[DrxAbstract]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

Sure, but its details really. You can use a coolshot and get 3-4 more alphas, and when you actually aim for a specific component etc. you might have slightly longer pauses between shots and so on and so forth. 10-12 alphas is ~250 damage. More than enough to kill any mech.

10-12 For 240-288dmg over 18-23 seconds, which I will once more reiterate my BK does 520 in that time and popping a coolshot adds at least 1 more alpha for 572dmg total while still being inside the same 18-22sec window. Pausing to aim applies to both - Hell the LCT has to do it more. The LCT-1E's effective firepower is sub-par compared to the Mechs it's being fielded with/against, but you can argue all you like, it doesn't change the fact it's a poorly armored, extremely short-ranged one-hit-wonder whose only saving grace is being relatively hard to hit for some people... And that's why it still gets played (Aside from the people piloting it being legally insane).

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

Lets not kid ourselves. You need to actually hit with that dual Gauss+ERPPC or whatever. I doubt anyone with half decent aim will miss your Knight, same time quite a lot of even top players won't be able to hit a non-idiot Locust with every shot.

I thought the point was obvious; You don't need to miss a BK, or any Heavy really--They can absorb multiple hits. Another obvious point is it doesn't matter how many times they miss a LCT - They just need to do it once. Leg or Torso hit, it's crippled or dead instantly... Maybe, just maybe,it'll take2 if you get lucky with an arm hit and you've got enough ST armor left to take the rest of the transferred damage without dying or only 1-2 of the weapons successfully connect.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

As for BlackKnight dictating engagements ... sorry, but this is just a joke. Even if you sacrifice most heat sinks and go for 385 on the fastest of them you won't breach 90kph, thats the same speed for most clan heavies, i.e. you can't dictate sh!t. A fkn UrbanMech runs faster and shoots backwards, some mechs can do 90 in reverse. And I won't even go into the discussion of IS heavies with XL engines. Especially so for a mech with the size of your KNT.

That's your opinion and you're welcome to have it, but in my experience it's quite capable of doing so, as I said, against most opponents. It's just as fast as, or faster, than legitimate threats. Suggesting a LCT can do it better is asinine as there are far more factors involved with a LCT trying to pull it off and its options more dependent on the oppositions loadout than with a BK, or any Heavy for that matter. Heavies arent afraid of Gauss-PPC, Streaks, Dakka, laser vomit, other Heavies or even Assaults... Any one of which will peace a LCT right out exit stage ejector pod if they're hunting for them. LCT rely on ignorant/weak enemies for strategic success - Heavies do not.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

Potential never translates into actual tho. Realistically its hardly ever was above 30% in terms of additional DPS.

Potential translates into reality every time you double-tap without jamming... Considering the odds of jams are really damned low, realistically, you're hitting that potential pretty bloody often.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

Slap yourself please. Hard. This ain't Hawken or whatever else kids play nowadays. Mechs in BT/MW never were meant to be even remotely balanced in any possible way. Every mech class has its role and every mech loadout is situational. THAT is BattleTech game. Anything else is just your average CoD FPS.

Dakka beats everything in a open field mid range fight and sux azz at pokewars and everything else.
SRM sh!tstorm beats everything else inside 300m and sux azz at greater ranges.
Lights (i.e. Locusts because every other light is a medium now) > Assaults > Heavies > Mediums > Lights.
^^ This achieves game balance, not the BS you suggest with every mech doing exact same as every other mech.

So where are these 'roles' and 'situations' Lights are supposed to fulfill in MWO? Oh, there arent any?! Well then... Since all we have is combat, and combat is the only thing on the roadmap for the foreseeable future, perhaps it'd be a good idea to start making all the stompy robbits good at it, yes?

And drop the lights>assaults>heavies>cousins>milfs BS, it's the default go-to cop-out excuse to dismiss people outright when you don't feel like providing any actual substance to a discussion. If you did, you'd acknowledge Lights are nowhere near being > Assaults in any capacity, much less that you honestly think the average Joe Light pilot is capable of taking down any Assault that isnt a pure Missile Boat in a straight fight without getting assistance from teammates in some regard... Which makes them reliant on teammates to perform the 'role' they're supposedly meant to fill. That also means Lights are useless without teammates--Can you say the same about Mediums, Heavies or Assaults? I wouldn't, because those 3 classes are quite capable of functioning on their own, absent the distractions that are necessary for Lights to operate.

Also: I never said everything has to be homogenized nonsense, so please slap yourself for the glaringly over-simplified dramatization.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

Sadly the trend nowadays seems to be make every mech suck at everything. Catering to the terribads goes on and on.

In any case, please see the big picture. The fact that we are even comparing DPS on a fkn assault that dedicates 50t into weaponry with a DPS of a 20 tonner should really tell you a lot.

Pretty sure that's been the trend for years...

The big picture is we are not comparing them - you are. If you wanted a legitimate comparison you would have brought up Energy-based Assault rather than a Light. I indulged your comparison and used the LCT and BK for a reason: They're laservomit. In doing so I was hoping to convey a bit of perspective in just how much better UACs performed than Lasers and that the nerf to them was justified... And that your conclusions concerning the LCT are a wee bit off.

[Rift Hawk]

So it has been about 3 years but here we go again....

Hardpoints and weapons need sizes. Heat capacity needs to be nerfed. Double heatsinks need to be double. Guess what this fixes ?

1. Boating
2. Mass damage alphas, multiple times before overheat
3. 2 minute steam rolls

With a little more number tweaking and hardpoint size balancing.....guess what we can also do away with then ?

1. Ghost heat
2. Energy draw (soon to be)
3. The forums

Edit: Oh and querks. We can get those outa here too

Edited by Imperial X, 22 November 2016 - 03:51 AM.

[Duke Nedo]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 01:56 AM, said:

Sadly the trend nowadays seems to be make every mech suck at everything. Catering to the terribads goes on and on.

There is nothing more elite about all weapons being Good compared to all weapons being Bad. Who cares where the base line goes as long as most weapons perform near the base line? It's all about nerfing things that needs to be nerfed and buff things that needs to be buffed.

Quote

The way UACs were treated in TT makes sense. You can shoot the same way you shoot regular ACs all you want, but as soon as you take two shots per turn it gets the jam chance. Once your UAC is jammed it is jammed for the rest of the fight. I'd rather see that - lower jam chances (~2-8% depending on caliber) with indefinite jam time, but I'd be "fine" with 20-30s jam time too for the sake of crybabies and "gameplay".

I think you are alone on that one mate. People are pretty upset already that the jam time went from 5 secs to 8 secs for cUAC10's and 20s...

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 02:01 AM, said:

Being viable in T4-T5(Where virtually anything would be) doesn't make them viable in T1 or Comp play. Their usefulness, like any other build, is proportional to the skill and builds of your opponents. In the case of the LCT and KGC you have two Mechs, of many, that are disproportionately affected by the capabilities of their opponents and require above-average effort to utilize relative to other Mechs.

Not really viable at the comp level, sure, but really good locust pilots can perform really well at the level just below that. Comparing sustained dps for locusts is rather pointless though. They harass and have their fun until they get hit, then they pop, so they need to be rather productive while they live for them to be viable at all... that's why they're not used at the highest level, they are more likely to be hit with a high PPFLD there and then it's game over. An ACH or JNR-IIc can usually survive being hit once at least... but if the comp teams didn't have to field any lights I am guessing none would be used.

[PhoenixFire55]

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

10-12 For 240-288dmg over 18-23 seconds, which I will once more reiterate my BK does 520 in that time and popping a coolshot adds at least 1 more alpha for 572dmg total while still being inside the same 18-22sec window. Pausing to aim applies to both - Hell the LCT has to do it more. The LCT-1E's effective firepower is sub-par compared to the Mechs it's being fielded with/against, but you can argue all you like, it doesn't change the fact it's a poorly armored, extremely short-ranged one-hit-wonder whose only saving grace is being relatively hard to hit for some people... And that's why it still gets played (Aside from the people piloting it being legally insane).

What are you trying to prove? That in a stand-still vs stand-still fight your 75t mech puts out more damage than my 20t mech? Who are you shooting? A DireWolf will put more damage into you then you into him and can take more. Neither will miss because both are too slow and too big. And if you are gonna fight a Locust that engages you starting at 100m from an awkward angle you'll have an open XL torso before you even touch it, and out of 520 damage you'll then put out into space in 18-23 seconds only 100 at best will actually spread itself into said Locust. But its most likely you'll be dead in 5 seconds, let alone 20. BlackKnight with IS pulse durations at least stands a chance, unlike anything with clan durations. I've mastered three Locusts over previous week, when you find a lone assault its not even fair, I disassemble it completely within said 20 seconds. The short burts DPS and even sustained is simply insane.

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

I thought the point was obvious; You don't need to miss a BK, or any Heavy really--They can absorb multiple hits. Another obvious point is it doesn't matter how many times they miss a LCT - They just need to do it once. Leg or Torso hit, it's crippled or dead instantly... Maybe, just maybe,it'll take2 if you get lucky with an arm hit and you've got enough ST armor left to take the rest of the transferred damage without dying or only 1-2 of the weapons successfully connect.

LOL ... multiple hits. Your BK absorbs 96 damage. Thats it, with zero armor on rears. Thats less than two full alphas from the same BK. And hitting your ST is far easier that hitting a Locust that can stay outside of frontal arcs of mechs slower than 80 kph at all times if he chooses so.

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

That's your opinion and you're welcome to have it, but in my experience it's quite capable of doing so, as I said, against most opponents. It's just as fast as, or faster, than legitimate threats. Suggesting a LCT can do it better is asinine as there are far more factors involved with a LCT trying to pull it off and its options more dependent on the oppositions loadout than with a BK, or any Heavy for that matter. Heavies arent afraid of Gauss-PPC, Streaks, Dakka, laser vomit, other Heavies or even Assaults... Any one of which will peace a LCT right out exit stage ejector pod if they're hunting for them. LCT rely on ignorant/weak enemies for strategic success - Heavies do not.

A simple question then, is ShadowCat a legitimate threat? ... Because it has twice the range, 1.5 times the speed and 3 times the mobility. It can run around you all day you won't even touch it. Pinning yourself into a tight alley with your back against a wall isn't really dictating terms of engagement you know ...

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

Potential translates into reality every time you double-tap without jamming... Considering the odds of jams are really damned low, realistically, you're hitting that potential pretty bloody often.

You can repeat this nonsense all you want. There is this and then there is maths. Maths (which was brought on the very first page of the thread you are or rather are not reading) clearly says that DPS increase is ~30%. For every pretty bloody often double tap that doesn't jam there is a pretty bloody just as often double tap that does.

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

So where are these 'roles' and 'situations' Lights are supposed to fulfill in MWO? Oh, there arent any?! Well then... Since all we have is combat, and combat is the only thing on the roadmap for the foreseeable future, perhaps it'd be a good idea to start making all the stompy robbits good at it, yes?

There are plenty. Even if we put all non-combat related ones including scouting aside. A light can easily flank and force the enemy to respond or change position, a light can easily make a fast peek without taking damage to finish off a enemy mech, which slower mechs can't do. A light can easily find and kill lone enemy mechs. A light with ranged weaponry can do whatever it wants to any significantly slower mech.

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

And drop the lights>assaults>heavies>cousins>milfs BS, it's the default go-to cop-out excuse to dismiss people outright when you don't feel like providing any actual substance to a discussion. If you did, you'd acknowledge Lights are nowhere near being > Assaults in any capacity, much less that you honestly think the average Joe Light pilot is capable of taking down any Assault that isnt a pure Missile Boat in a straight fight without getting assistance from teammates in some regard... Which makes them reliant on teammates to perform the 'role' they're supposedly meant to fill. That also means Lights are useless without teammates--Can you say the same about Mediums, Heavies or Assaults? I wouldn't, because those 3 classes are quite capable of functioning on their own, absent the distractions that are necessary for Lights to operate.

There is substance plenty. Your ignorance is your own problem. Feel free to watch the MWWC regional finals and see how lights decide the outcome of the match and how its their teammates relying on them not the other way around.

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

Also: I never said everything has to be homogenized nonsense, so please slap yourself for the glaringly over-simplified dramatization.

Oh, but lets see ...

DrxAbstract, on 21 November 2016 - 09:18 PM, said:

Now, in a balanced combat game Mech builds across all weight classes and chassis should have comparable statistics in terms of DPS, Effective Damage per Shot, Range and Survivability;

Same DPS, same damage per shot at same range ... i.e. doing the same, i.e. being same.

DrxAbstract, on 22 November 2016 - 03:37 AM, said:

The big picture is we are not comparing them - you are. If you wanted a legitimate comparison you would have brought up Energy-based Assault rather than a Light. I indulged your comparison and used the LCT and BK for a reason: They're laservomit. In doing so I was hoping to convey a bit of perspective in just how much better UACs performed than Lasers and that the nerf to them was justified... And that your conclusions concerning the LCT are a wee bit off.

Yep. Totally missing the point still.
The entire point is comparing the DPS of a mech with 6 tons of weapons to a mech with 50 tons of weapons and suddenly realizing that they are quite similiar and yet its the latter that gets reduced.

As for the UACs performing better than lasers. I don't even know what to say, you must be playing some kind of a different game from nearly everyone else. Because all I saw on this very forum prior to Kodiak release was laservomit this, laservomit that ...

[PhoenixFire55]

Duke Nedo, on 22 November 2016 - 03:56 AM, said:

There is nothing more elite about all weapons being Good compared to all weapons being Bad. Who cares where the base line goes as long as most weapons perform near the base line? It's all about nerfing things that needs to be nerfed and buff things that needs to be buffed.

Actually there is. Limiting alphas and limiting burst DPS is exactly catering to the bads. There is a big difference between cluelessly going somewhere and "suddenly" getting blasted in the face for 200 damage from three mechs and cluelessly going somewhere and "suddenly" getting "blasted" for 30 damage from three mechs. Same way it is much easier to spread damage with limited alphas, and lower DPS across the board makes mistakes far less costly.

If you don't care about where your base line is then why not get rid of all weapons except flamers and machine guns? ... Yeah, a rather low base line, but all weapons will be performing well near the base line and the game will actually (and I mean it) be fun. So, how about it?

Duke Nedo, on 22 November 2016 - 03:56 AM, said:

I think you are alone on that one mate. People are pretty upset already that the jam time went from 5 secs to 8 secs for cUAC10's and 20s...

I probably am. But when I'm saying considering this for UACs I'm not taking everything else into account balance-wise, only UACs. Its how they are "supposed" to work in my opinion. "Most" people (especially the lock-on LRM/SSRM crowd and Gauss-needs-charge crowd) probably won't like my opinion on how other weapons are supposed to work either.

But thats just that, opinion. Opinions do not Matter^TM.

[Duke Nedo]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:42 AM, said:

Actually there is. Limiting alphas and limiting burst DPS is exactly catering to the bads. There is a big difference between cluelessly going somewhere and "suddenly" getting blasted in the face for 200 damage from three mechs and cluelessly going somewhere and "suddenly" getting "blasted" for 30 damage from three mechs. Same way it is much easier to spread damage with limited alphas, and lower DPS across the board makes mistakes far less costly.

I expressed that poorly, I do care of course... I don't agree with that part about skill and caving in to bads though.

If you change the TTK it just makes it a different game IMO. Unlimited alphas just make it more COD:y. BOOM headshot! No skill will dodge that... That can also be fun, but for a mech game? It's just more twitch and sneak skills, less "mech skills". Mech skills should also include a fair amount of defensive twisting, aiming for compartments, positioning etc, else I can just play... BF1 or something and have more appropriate skins.

IMO TTK is in a good place right now. It is punishing if you get focused and it should, but you very rarely instapop in MWO. At the same time you also can solo someone, it doesn't take ages. Pretty balanced imo, let's not change that.

That said, I don't think nerfing the top performing weapons is catering to bad players. It's just perfectly normal balancing. You nerf the best, you buff the worst and viola, you have more variation and a better game. You also don't change the TTK in the long run.

On the other hand, if you "cater to the good players" and increase the performance of all weapons every time you tweak balance, then you decrease the TTK over time and you risk changing the pace of the game until it becomes something completely different and that could cause havoc to the player base... the brave souls still here are here because they want to play a mech game I suppose...

Edited by Duke Nedo, 22 November 2016 - 06:12 AM.

[DrxAbstract]

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

What are you trying to prove? That in a stand-still vs stand-still fight your 75t mech puts out more damage than my 20t mech? Who are you shooting? A DireWolf will put more damage into you then you into him and can take more. Neither will miss because both are too slow and too big. And if you are gonna fight a Locust that engages you starting at 100m from an awkward angle you'll have an open XL torso before you even touch it, and out of 520 damage you'll then put out into space in 18-23 seconds only 100 at best will actually spread itself into said Locust. But its most likely you'll be dead in 5 seconds, let alone 20. BlackKnight with IS pulse durations at least stands a chance, unlike anything with clan durations. I've mastered three Locusts over previous week, when you find a lone assault its not even fair, I disassemble it completely within said 20 seconds. The short burts DPS and even sustained is simply insane.

No, actually, that isnt what I'm trying to 'prove'. I'm just stating numerics and hoping you realize how ridiculous comparing an LCT-1E to a Multi-UAC Assault is, but... Nope. Citing hypotheticals to disprove the facts will get you nowhere, because I can counter your anecdote with one of my own... Like the time I faced 2 ACHs, a Jenner IIC and Shadowcat 4v1 in an Atlas-S and crushed them without getting a single breached section, or the time I killed 2 LCTs and an ACH 3v1 in my 4xUAC5 KGC-000, again, pounding them to a pulp nearly instantaneously also without getting sections opened. Chalk that up to whatever reasons you want, I'm just saying there's no comparison to be made - UACs are a superior weapon more often than not.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

LOL ... multiple hits. Your BK absorbs 96 damage. Thats it, with zero armor on rears. Thats less than two full alphas from the same BK. And hitting your ST is far easier that hitting a Locust that can stay outside of frontal arcs of mechs slower than 80 kph at all times if he chooses so.

Do you have any idea what the two primary reasons for Lights being undesirable are?

1. Limited Firepower.
2. Limited Survivability.

Sure, my BK only requires pinpointing 96 Damage into one location... Only. And yet there's still the option to, and possibility of, spreading damage safely to other portions of the chassis - Which is a common practice to increase survival time, I hear... Now, where are you going to spread that damage on an LCT? Let's ignore the very real possibility that taking a hit from said weapons wouldn't, in all likelihood, kill or cripple you regardless of where they hit. It might take 10 shots to kill a BK and it might take 10 shots to kill an LCT... The difference is the BK isn't going to implode from a single direct hit - That kind of matters... A lot.

Admittedly, it can be easier to peg specific sections on a BK than hitting a LCT in general... But, BUT - The people capable of nailing those kinds of shots despite the twisting and spreading are the same ones that don't have much difficulty hitting a wily Locust. Indulge me for a moment: Which Mech would you rather be in when facing those people? A Locust, or any other Mech?

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

A simple question then, is ShadowCat a legitimate threat? ... Because it has twice the range, 1.5 times the speed and 3 times the mobility. It can run around you all day you won't even touch it. Pinning yourself into a tight alley with your back against a wall isn't really dictating terms of engagement you know ...

Not sure what you don't understand about me saying "most Mechs" and then you intentionally pull from the pool of Mech Builds that obviously doesn't fall into that category... Really? ... But to answer your dubious question: In my opinion an 2xERPPC Shadowcat is a large threat to both the Locust and BK while the 3xERLL and 2xLPlas could go either way for the LCT.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

You can repeat this nonsense all you want. There is this and then there is maths. Maths (which was brought on the very first page of the thread you are or rather are not reading) clearly says that DPS increase is ~30%. For every pretty bloody often double tap that doesn't jam there is a pretty bloody just as often double tap that does.

That's funny because math also states having an an 83-85% chance of something not happening means it is the majority, and most likely, outcome. Can it bite you in the backside? Sure... Odds are it will not--Odds are you're hitting the potential more often than not... With an 83% chance, odds are you're going to hit the potential pretty bloody often.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

There are plenty. Even if we put all non-combat related ones including scouting aside. A light can easily flank and force the enemy to respond or change position, a light can easily make a fast peek without taking damage to finish off a enemy mech, which slower mechs can't do. A light can easily find and kill lone enemy mechs. A light with ranged weaponry can do whatever it wants to any significantly slower mech.

All of which can be performed by a Medium, and in some cases a Heavy: Cicada, Blackjack, Griffin, Shadowhawk, Viper, Shadowcat, Nova, Hunchback IIC, Huntsman, Linebacker, Summoner... So, what can Lights do that those Mechs cannot? Since that list covers: Speed, Mobility, Damage Output, Poking, Flanking and Vulturing with the added bonus of more survability; By all means--Give me the situations Lights are uniquely suited for... I'll wait.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

There is substance plenty. Your ignorance is your own problem. Feel free to watch the MWWC regional finals and see how lights decide the outcome of the match and how its their teammates relying on them not the other way around.

Well, ignoring that they're playing on a different version of MWO than we are(Last I checked), I'll give you this easily overlooked tidbit concerning MWOWC Rules:

Quote

TONNAGE RULES

"After discussions with community league organizers and consulting player feedback in the Tonnage Limits thread here we have decided to go with a 2/2/2/2 weight class structure, instead of limiting by standard tonnage values. This means that Teams will purely be restricted to:"

2 Light 'Mechs
2 Medium 'Mechs
2 Heavy 'Mechs
2 Assault 'Mechs

While pointing out this was the most favored option to make the Tournament "more interesting", not to make it conducive to min-maxing efficiency - I'll posit this question: Would those teams have picked Lights for the most efficient min-max dropdeck layout? I can't answer that because I'm not them... But I've a strong suspicion the answer would be "No." Likely because it wouldn't be as entertaining... Which just happens to be one of the main reasons people still play Lights: They're hilariously fun sometimes(preference over viability).

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Oh, but lets see ...

Same DPS, same damage per shot at same range ... i.e. doing the same, i.e. being same.

That is not what I said. Here's the entire statement, context and all:

Quote

"Now, in a balanced combat game Mech builds across all weight classes and chassis should have comparable statistics in terms of DPS, Effective Damage per Shot, Range and Survivability; As you can see, the LCT is sub-par and the UAC Assault is leaps and bounds ahead of the other two not because the KGC is an exceptional chassis - Quite the contrary - But specifically because of UACs... And that's why they needed a nerf. Hell, even after the nerf they still have the potential for absurd damage output."

How you get "All mechs must be the same" from that requires twisting my words - I said 'comparable', which means relatively equal in overall potential contribution via manipulation of, but not specifically limited to, the areas I listed. That means there can be any number of varied intricacies that collectively achieve the goal of relatively equal potential... Which they are not, hence the comparison of the 3 Mechs to show just how much more potential one generally unremarkable Mech has specifically due to the use of UACs... Kind of like the KDK-3 vs. Other KDK variants. The Dire was in the same position, but unlike the KDK it doesn't have the huge engine bonus to maneuverability, meaning you had more options and a larger margin of error and a wider array of Mechs/Builds could deal with them.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

Yep. Totally missing the point still.
The entire point is comparing the DPS of a mech with 6 tons of weapons to a mech with 50 tons of weapons and suddenly realizing that they are quite similiar and yet its the latter that gets reduced.

Except they're not similar... They're not even close: Minimal heat, superior burst and sustained damage, superior range... And why are you comparing weapons with high tonnage requirements to those with low tonnage requirements? A Battlemaster would have been a better comparison to an LCT-1E than a UAC boat... But really, they're not similar.

PhoenixFire55, on 22 November 2016 - 05:30 AM, said:

As for the UACs performing better than lasers. I don't even know what to say, you must be playing some kind of a different game from nearly everyone else. Because all I saw on this very forum prior to Kodiak release was laservomit this, laservomit that ...

I suppose that means you think the "LRMs are OP" and "Lights are OP" threads have merit too, then?

I don't disagree the LCT-1E can be useful given the right circumstances, but you don't see swarms of Locusts; It's the shiniest peanut in the **** due to the re-scale and nerfs to historically superior Lights. The proliferation of Gauss-PPC, UAC+Laser, UAC and even SRM builds should be indication enough one has considerably less situational and universal viability than the others... Hell, how often have you even seen an LCT in the MWOWC, for that matter... ? I doubt it's because the Light pilots and their teams felt it was too stronk. Gimmick builds like SRM bombers have been utilized more often and I dont see you mentioning those, ironically.

*shrug*