181 replies to this topic

[Scarlett Avignon]

Dihm, on 22 December 2011 - 08:36 AM, said:

Oh, trust me, I don't want it changed, I want it just like it is supposed to be in the Universe. Just pointing out that people will complain either way, no way PGI can get around that.

Yeah, I got that you were simply talking about how others will react. I was simply stating that no matter what they do, people are going to bitch. Frankly, I'd much rather see them stick to their guns (in this case, the canon) with the Clans, and have them be bad-***** that take much more than simply firepower to take down.

And again, there is still the 75% of the IS that wasn't attacked by the Clans for the people who don't like their storyline to play in. I wish they'd stay in that part, and get their noses out of the Clans, just because they aren't imaginative enough to figure out how to beat them.

[Dihm]

I wonder how many CapCons and Marys are going to complain about not being able to fight the Clans.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Dihm, on 22 December 2011 - 09:14 AM, said:

I wonder how many CapCons and Marys are going to complain about not being able to fight the Clans.

Well, as I recall, they will have plenty going on in their own realms during the Invasion

[Dihm]

They did? Operation Guerrero didn't come till much later (3057), well after the Truce. During the Invasion the FWL were just suppliers. Much like the USA prior to their entry into WWII. No clue what the Cappies were up to during this timeframe. I'm fairly ignorant of the bottom half of the Inner Sphere to be honest.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

my problem with clantech will always be: the power of their equipment given to players.
see if clantech was only for some sort of NPC group or only acquire by salvage that's fine
but let me be blunt here- No player actually earned clantech, that's what hangs me up
every time - that this powerful equipment is available by choice to anyone...sooooo why
go with IS tech at all? who would rationally handicap themselves when the superior equipment
is there for all? I also refuse to believe that Zell is a viable excuse either, for in game especially
video games, you can't enforce RP rules like Zell it only infuriates players so what we're left
with is a group that has clearly superior technology that anyone can take. Is it any wonder that
most custom loadouts of IS mechs in MW3-4 were loaded to bear with clan tech?

final note:
"When something is broken [or OP], it's no secret"
I've been hocking this guys article for weeks now, don't know if anyone's read it. the parallel
between space marines and clans in terms of game mechanics and development are astounding
and if you supplant 'space marine' with 'clan' in this article you'll see how close they match.

"Nobody likes to be the target of super-duper genetically engineered superior elite fighters. It's not that they are unbeatable. In a game as random as Warhammer 40'000 is, nothing is unbeatable. Yet, it's not because it can be beaten that it's fair."

"Thanks for Mankind and the fascist Imperium of Man, since then Space Marines are simply the best at everything. They beat specialists from other armies even in their respective field of expertise. Assault Marines match Genestealers in hand-to-hand fights. Space Marine Devastators are more cost-effective and versatile than Eldar Dark Reapers, embodiment of long-range support. Nothing comes close to Space Marine statline point-wise. The Elite of the Imperium is immune to most morale rules, has the best tanks, the cheapest transports and, should need arise, they can rely on their trusty 3+ save everytime."

http://www.stephane....odex_not_marine

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 22 December 2011 - 12:24 PM.

[Niccollo Mercer]

Replace any House's name with the Space Marines and you get the same thing. They're all fascist dictatorships. Even the Federated Suns. That's what Aaron DeChavalier said. He even wanted to knock down the rest of society to burn out their corrupting influence near the end of his life.

To keep this on the mechanics of the situation, we don't know exactly how the Clanners will be balanced. For all we know it could be a mechanic like rating =2x tonnage for Clan 'Mechs, 1.5x for Star League, 1x for Succession War era tech and all battles have a fixed tonnage requirement. Someone might have a Timberwolf A, but they're going to be facing a MAD-5D Marauder and a WLF-2 Wolfhound for their opponents.

If you want to compare board games, that's cool. I've been in a few Battletech campaigns and have been on a few Megamek servers. It usually ends up something like "For your veteran star of heavy 'Mechs, I can bring a company of IS veteran assaults!" or "I'm only using a green second heavy star. Oh gee! You either have to follow suit or only send out a handful of elementals and an Ice Ferret!"

You may scream that Clan tech is unfair, Not Aaron, but lord is the balancing system sure hard on it.

[Anton Shadd]

My problem is,most players would not stick to clan-honour-rules, like only shooting at one target and not gangin up against an assault,when clan fields two lights.
Strictly speakin those honour-based behaviour is kinda stupid, but thats how clans work,at least for the first years of the invasion-period.
Since we all are by now just guessing how the enviroment of the game will look like and what kind of tactical and strategical possibilities it will present its difficult to say how actual combat for an IS unit vs some clanners will work out.
If I can somehow dig in somewhere and get the clanners with large bore autocannons from behind, like the guards got their victories on tukayyd then let them have their equipment.
But if I'm presented with a terrain with no cover whatsoever in a 80klick radius I would just try to challenge a commander for a duel, there comes the honour-system into play, which clanplayer will take up my challenge and fight my 'hammer in a 'moth?

[Niccollo Mercer]

Actually, I would in most Firemoth configs. MG and SRM ammo tends to be really allergic to Laser ventilation. I think the WM-6R can take care of most light configs if they need to come inside the 18 range.

[Dihm]

Anton Shadd, on 22 December 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

My problem is,most players would not stick to clan-honour-rules

Honor rules get thrown out the door pretty quick. This is only important in Clan vs Clan matches. IS is gonna break the rules pretty dang fast, meaning that the Clans can do the same.

[Drayco]

While it was a well written argument I completely disagree with the OP. The clans are superior in raw firepower and flexibility in every way when they invade. They have improved on the tech while the Inner Sphere almost destroyed themselves. The one advantage the IS has is its tactical/strategic flexibility in that they don't follow the same rules of warfare.

As for the argument that they are unfairly advanced given the time they have been out of the Inner Sphere, just look at our own tech advances in the last 30 years, let alone 300 !

Leave the Clans as they are, vastly superior mechs with a complicated honor system that is used against them successfully.
Of course how this can be handed over to PvP is open to even more debate.

[Scarlett Avignon]

Dihm, on 22 December 2011 - 07:08 PM, said:

Honor rules get thrown out the door pretty quick. This is only important in Clan vs Clan matches. IS is gonna break the rules pretty dang fast, meaning that the Clans can do the same.

During the early invasion, the Clans stuck to Zellbrigen quite closely, even if their IS opponents broke it. It took very grievous offenses for most Clan warriors to break from their code.

[CaveMan]

It's really not impossible to enforce zell on Clan players. The rules themselves are pretty binary, and thus easy to implement into the game itself. And details can be changed to better suit an online PvP game (such as removing the provision that lets Clan players ignore zell against a dishonorable foe).
The key is figuring out a suitable carrot/stick mechanism to make people care about sticking to the honor rules.

It will generate a lot of whining, though, from the people who just want awesome guns and don't care about the setting.

[Slepnir]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 22 December 2011 - 12:14 PM, said:

my problem with clantech will always be: the power of their equipment given to players.
see if clantech was only for some sort of NPC group or only acquire by salvage that's fine
but let me be blunt here- No player actually earned clantech, that's what hangs me up
every time - that this powerful equipment is available by choice to anyone...sooooo why
go with IS tech at all? who would rationally handicap themselves when the superior equipment
is there for all? I also refuse to believe that Zell is a viable excuse either, for in game especially
video games, you can't enforce RP rules like Zell it only infuriates players so what we're left
with is a group that has clearly superior technology that anyone can take. Is it any wonder that
most custom loadouts of IS mechs in MW3-4 were loaded to bear with clan tech?

final note:
"When something is broken [or OP], it's no secret"
I've been hocking this guys article for weeks now, don't know if anyone's read it. the parallel
between space marines and clans in terms of game mechanics and development are astounding
and if you supplant 'space marine' with 'clan' in this article you'll see how close they match.

"Nobody likes to be the target of super-duper genetically engineered superior elite fighters. It's not that they are unbeatable. In a game as random as Warhammer 40'000 is, nothing is unbeatable. Yet, it's not because it can be beaten that it's fair."

"Thanks for Mankind and the fascist Imperium of Man, since then Space Marines are simply the best at everything. They beat specialists from other armies even in their respective field of expertise. Assault Marines match Genestealers in hand-to-hand fights. Space Marine Devastators are more cost-effective and versatile than Eldar Dark Reapers, embodiment of long-range support. Nothing comes close to Space Marine statline point-wise. The Elite of the Imperium is immune to most morale rules, has the best tanks, the cheapest transports and, should need arise, they can rely on their trusty 3+ save everytime."

http://www.stephane....odex_not_marine

There is no problem, better than 40K is the WWII anaology of shermans VS tigers

Numbers defeat the clans, war is not fair, clans have better tech yes, but the IS outnumbers them and overwhelms them. in fluff, on the TT and it should be so in the MO game. As far as in the online game, nobody will have access to clantech for what at least a year after the game is launched? i think we would be jumping the gun to worry about how they are going to intigrate it now.

P.S. i laugh at the quotes as a 40K player

Marines are GENERALISTS, they can do a bit of everything are generally resilaint but exceed at no one aspect of the game. Eldar for example are all about specialists. fire dragons kill armor and MCs better than marines. banshees(with correctly used "doom") are much more effective than assault marines. yet these units do nothing other than those special tasks and require a good finesse play style.

[Kudzu]

Slepnir, on 24 December 2011 - 09:29 PM, said:

P.S. i laugh at the quotes as a 40K player

Marines are GENERALISTS, they can do a bit of everything are generally resilaint but exceed at no one aspect of the game. Eldar for example are all about specialists. fire dragons kill armor and MCs better than marines. banshees(with correctly used "doom") are much more effective than assault marines. yet these units do nothing other than those special tasks and require a good finesse play style.

My buddy thinks his marines are awesome... until I get them into melee combat with my 'nids. I have more bodies than he has bullets, so it's inevitable.

[Ravn]

I think it would be very difficult to enforce Zell in real time, but Clanners should have superior tech to fit cannon. One could enforce Zell through honor points and load outs prior to match initiation. Clans thrive on bidding with who can do the most with the least. It would be much like mercenaries bidding for the lowest earnings, but rather it would be who bid the lowest tonnage, # of mechs, critical spaces... Grievers who are only out to inflict pain through superior tech will find themselves constantly underbid and losing honor points and experience points by winning lopsided matches until all they can field is an elemental. On the other hand, lances that underbid and go into the field out matched will make gains.

[Adian HDragon Vordermark]

Habokku, on 12 December 2011 - 03:09 AM, said:

Salutations and greetings to all my fellow Battletech & Mechwarrior enthusiasts!

<S> Let me start by saying thank you for taking the time to click on this little article and (hopefully) read over this with an open mind, and an eye on what is trying to be accomplished by writing it: Specifically, sharing a thought process on how to (again, hopefully) balance out clan tech in a logical and efficient way so that it retains the distinct 'clan' feel and elegance, while at the same time not being so vastly superior as to be sorcery by comparrison to the Inner Sphere weaponry.

Having said that, I will freely admit I an an Inner Sphere pilot, and have been since my earliest days in Battletech and Mechwarrior. I just prefer the I.S. designs, specifically the Star League era 'mechs. My preferred ride is the Highlander, and it always will be. Now that I've gotten that little introduction out of the way, allow me to expound on my theory.
(Please also know this is purely an idea based on a logical train of thought. I am not decrying the Clans or saying they should not be a part of the Universe. I personally love the concept of them and have had many many fun engagements with Clans in the past through the Mechwarrior games and leagues such as BTU and NBT.)

Now, let me start by saying: I have no problem with Omnimechs. I personally don't want to drive an Omnimech (as I said, my ride of choice is and always will be the Highlander) but that said I know people have their favorites and I want them to be able to pilot said favorite if it is availiable.

Secondly, Tech. The real issue with the clans, in my eyes, is the tech and more precisely the weaponry.
In almost every way, the clan's weaponry is better than any I.S. Tech(Weapons) by orders of magnitude.
......

Diablo48, on 12 December 2011 - 04:24 AM, said:

No. The whole point of the Clans is that they are what happened when the SLDF went off on its own for 300 years without loosing Star League tech. Everything they have is supposed to be centuries ahead of anything in the IS, and that is to be expected after having centuries to improve on the pinnacle of Star League R&D.

Balance can be achieved much more easily by making it possible for IS pilots to buy Clan tech for a premium. This works very well with my other idea of forcing all players to start in the IS and make them take the time and effort to get taken as bondsmen where they will have to work to join the ranks of their new Clan. This will mean that players will have to either invest more effort into joining a Clan to get easy access to the better tech or invest effort into saving up money to buy Clan salvage.

This is a reply I made in a different thread, but I think some of the issues brought up here also stem from this. However without knowing more info on the game mechanics, it would be hard to say what would be best when compairing Clan Omni tech to IS Tech. I would like to remind that any Clan Tech in the Battletech game would also take Clan Omni's and give them the advantage of being able to repair quickly (in a matter of Hours) compaired to the IS Mech (that repair in a matter of Days). This is one of the advantages that really cant be compaired in a MMO. Look at it in a MMO perspective, as who would want to wait Days for an IS mech (or Hours simulated MMO time) to Hours for a Clan Omni (or minutes simulated in a MMO) to be repaired.

The argument about Clan Tech being vastly overpowered also needs to be kept in perspective. Remembr for every Clan weapon, the only advantage they have is Range and Damage, you are not takeing the Heat into account. If you are compairing Rage and damage with heat these weapons also have Huge Heat disadvantatges to give them those range and damage bonuses. The amount of Heat sinks needed to run with these weapons need to be included with the loadout. This adds alot of Crit and Weight to any Clan Mech. That alone can be quit a disadvantage as well. And as previously mentioned in the article this came out of, once you get inside a range where both sides can fire, the range and damage bonuses you are giveing them goes to the IS as they can fire without generateing as much heat.

Also, remember when you make a IS mech, the best mech designs are based on the normal Heat sinks the Engines have, thats 10 (or 20 for double heat sinks) heat disipation for normal mechs. Clans when using lasers in any quantity, have to add Heat Sinks to reduce the excessive heat all of their wepons generate even with double heat sinks. Even with the normal Double Heat sinks giveing a 20 disipation, anyone who knows Clan Mechs will still have a time fireing any long range weapons for long, as the heat will soon limit out. The extra heat sinks needed to reduce the heat generated takes up not only Weight but Crit spaces as previously mentioned. Thats alot, and there is really no difference in Armor protection for clan mechs vs IS, with the exception of fewer Crits used with Special Chasis internals or Advanced types of Armor, but the weight is still the same for the armor. Those extra Crits saved for Clan Mechs are for Heat Sink placement.

So with all this said, I still think it is really premature to think of makeing Clans the same as IS, as all of these mechanics will need to be seen either ingame, or released info, before you really can make a decision on Mech tech limits, and until we know for sure what is being introduced, its hard to say it should be anything else.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 21 December 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

also; you had to make those 3 custom builds to match the
stock build of a single clan mech... to say nothing of the entire clan
3050 roster.

customizations there for a reason deal with it or use it.

[Gremlich Johns]

Though "we" in CBS will never quite know when we be able to make an appearance in any iteration of the MW games, below is what the Blood Spirits, if possible, could field as being consistent with the BT/CBT milieu (and availability in game). As most of you should know, CBS did not get advanced tech (omni-tech) until very late in the game (during the 3050's), often fielding Star League era tech with some modifications. Regardless of the age of the tech, CBS was always considered a formidable force to contend with in the BT milieu. (so all of you Clan haters can quit whining about having to use IS tech against Clan tech - CBS fights in what you do and still wins) (I also included some manufacturers, some as far back as 2700's) This is not tech that CBS won from the IS, it is what it ended up with before the Invasion ever happened:

Front-line:

Morrigu [80tons] - Long-range fire support. CBS built
Shamesh [11tons] - Fast light-weight recon. CBS built
Ares [40tons] - Long-range fire support. Clan
Athena [75tons] - Long-range support (used in very limited quantities). Clan
Burke [75tons] (Foretechno, Leopard Armor, IS)
Demolisher [80tons] (Aldis Industries)
Hachiman [50tons] - Heavy use. Clan
Manticore [60tons] - Dwindling numbers, may also be classified as second-line (lots of IS producers)
Mars [100tons] - Good usage, though more with heavier Stars. Clan
Odin [20tons] - Clan
Oro [60tons] - Clan
Puma [95tons] assault tank ( Pandora 'Mech Works, Odin Manufacturing)
Asshur [20tons] - Recon vehicles (replaced by the Shamesh, though may be used in limited numbers). Clan


Second-line:
Alacorn [95tons] - Fire support (may be used in some front-line stars)
Bandit [50tons] - May still show in front-line
Demon [60tons] - Only Star League variants (low numbers probably in use)
Gabriel [5tons] (Bowie Industries in 2712)
Huitzilopochtli [85tons] - Limited use due to Arrow missile systems (viewed as dishonorable). Clan
Kanga [50tons] - A jumpjet-capable hovercraft! Mostly stuck in mothball, may slowly being reintroduced (could even slide into very few front-line units) (Mitchell Vehicles of Graham IV )
Lightning [35tons] (Capellan Confederation)
Mauna Kea [85tons] (Terran Hegemony)


Other:

Flatbed Truck [10tons] - Yes, they do have some armed versions

[Frantic Pryde]

For those that didn't listen to the podcast the devs posted, they actually touched on the clan issue. They talked about using clan honor and smaller numbers as a way to balance it

[DICCCE]

my only worry is that the thoughts are getting to far ahead. I mean the first part hasn't even been released. I mean really there are only 5 mechs even revealed yet. Let alone we don't know much of the weapon damage tables for this version. I might start caring more when we see numbers and such.

On another note quick idea. Just extend the range on the weapons for clans. That is what is talked about most in the stories and can be negated easily by inner sphere tactics. (if you can't figure that part out you may need to read where most battles took place.)