181 replies to this topic

[Cyber Carns]

Paul Rice, on 16 December 2011 - 08:45 AM, said:

Maybe this has been posted before, but we suggested having an in-game mechanic that limits clan force size in a way that evens the odds, instead of nerfing their mechs?

With the clan honor system and batchalls and all that, the Clans were all about sending in the smallest/weakest force possible in order to gain the most honor. Forcing smaller clan force BVs would make battles work out okay.

OH FRICK I just had an idea. What if instead of C-Bills, clan forces used HONOR as currency somehow? They don't really have an innersphere capitalist economy, unless they do and I just forgot. But if a clan MW does something really impressive in an even battle, or wins a battle with bad odds,, he comes out of the battle with more honor which he can spend on whatever. That would be interesting.

Plus, it might motivate clanners to limit their own advantages if winning a stacked fight gets them no significant reward.

Zellbrigen would not work as I have posted the rules of Zellbrigen. As soon as the IS disregards it Zellbrigen gets thrown out of the window. If the IS units followed it it would work. But as with human nature most will take any advantage to win, so it would not work.

Edited by Cyber Carns, 16 December 2011 - 11:16 PM.

[Slepnir]

Cyber Carns, on 16 December 2011 - 11:16 PM, said:

Zellbrigen would not work as I have posted the rules of Zellbrigen. As soon as the IS disregards it Zellbrigen gets thrown out of the window. If the IS units followed it it would work. But as with human nature most will take any advantage to win, so it would not work.

Thats not an accurate statement at all. some clans are opportunistic, some are strict and some ignore it.

for example. blood spirits(on the offensive) & goliath scorpions will always follow zell even if you(IS) violate it, wolf and nova cat will drop it if you do. or like my lota galaxy hells horse they are misfits and refuse to follow zell for any reason. there are always exceptions of course. if the WOB guys show up no clan will grant them the honorof zell for they are beneath that for even some of the most adherant clans.

As somebody else pointed out, your trying to change the universe, your fixing what is not broken. clans and IS can efectively fight each other and have a great battle with the current system in place. the ideas expressed to "fix" things do not make it better so no i will not get on that bandwagon. ive been playing the game on the TT for close to 20 years, with a game(and sometimes multiple games) on average once per week. thats alot of real world experience on how things work. which is why i can say nothing needs to be fixed. it is one of the best darn systems out there for game balance and well written rules even after all these years.

Edited by Slepnir, 17 December 2011 - 01:23 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

CaveMan, on 16 December 2011 - 10:49 PM, said:

They do have a currency (it's called the Kerensky) but it's really pretty much just a formality. Clan merchants aren't permitted to seek "personal" profit, only profit for the Clan as a whole, so their exchanges are pretty much all barter.

Then what about:

Quote

With further regards to costs, even OmniMechs constructed from standard materials are more expensive than comparable BattleMechs of similar weight to both construct and field. While the initial invasion gave the impression that Clan toumans consisted solely of OmniMechs, even they can only afford to outfit their front-line units with them, with their so-called second-line forces generally fielding more cost effective standard BattleMechs, albeit utilizing superior Clan technology.

The modifications required to add modular attachment points so weaponry and equipment can be used by OmniMechs render such equipment incompatible with standard BattleMechs, even for identical classes and "brands" of equipment the only thing that can be used interchangeably is ammunition. For mixed units of BattleMechs and OmniMechs this adds an artificial separation and duplication in supply chains and logistics for spare parts. While the Clans have mostly overcome these issues, the relatively young OmniMech programs in the Inner Sphere still cause headaches for quartermasters which prevent many Successor State units from fully utilizing the flexibilities of the designs.

(from the Sarna page on OmniMechs)

This makes it sound like one of the main reasons that not all Clan Mechwarriors are assigned OmniMechs is one of monetary scarcity - someone has to be paid - money must change hands - to either acquire or produce OmniMechs and their constituent parts and no one Clan has the financial resources to do so on a scale that would allow for more than a few handfuls of the crème de la crème of their Mechwarriors to be so equipped.
Otherwise, if money were truly a non-issue, why wouldn't each Clan (each of which have multiple planets worth of resources and personnel and automated and semi-automated facilities at their command) consolidate its construction programs (and simplify logistics and supply chains) by producing only OmniMechs, OmniFighters, and OmniVehicles (which they clearly don't)?
Moreover, how (and why) do the Clans make the money needed to produce and/or procure what equipment they do have without some form of inter- and intra-Clan economy in which to use their Kerenskys (or would it be "Kerenskies")? And what would the Diamond Sharks, as heavily based around their merchants as they they are, do if not sell stuff to the other Clans (and/or, eventually(?), the occasional Spheroid )?

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CaveMan, on 16 December 2011 - 10:49 PM, said:

The clans using honor as a currency could potentially work, but to make it stick you'd need strict rules enforcing the LOSS of honor for dishonorable acts, and set it up in such a way that you couldn't just grind honor for two days and then play the rest of the week dishonorably and still come out even on Sunday.

In other words, dishonorable acts should have much more weight than honorable ones. Maybe even do it on an exponential scale so that you have to be extra, extra honorable to really get anywhere.

Or perhaps have an honor system that is set up so that only maintaining an honorable disposition improves your rep. Like, say, your Loyalty Points for Clan factions govern which Clan equipment you can requisition and how much per day, but LP for Clans are gained by completing a match with a certain honor-to-dishonor ratio (90%+ honorable), and dishonorable acts themselves directly harm your LP score, so it's never favorable to behave dishonorably as a Clan player.

This!

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CaveMan, on 16 December 2011 - 10:49 PM, said:

Honor as currency also poses the issue of, how do you trade honor? It's not a currency after all unless it's an accepted medium of exchange. Can you buy from another player using honor, and if so, do they then have more honor as a result? Can a dishonorable player then become honorable through barter?

What about using Honor and credits (Kerenskys/Kerenskies) for inter-player interactions?

Clan warriors could be allowed some form of allowance (as they may occasionally have need to interact with local economies (e.g. buying drinks and trinkets and such, which has been demonstrated in the canon, IIRC); also, I would think that they would think that their currency's namesakes would not be okay with the warrior caste simply taking and/or destroying the civilians' stuff at whim without some form of compensation). It could even be tied to one's Honor, where higher/more Honor grants one a greater allowance (as, clearly, one could be trusted to use it responsibly and honorably).

However, I suspect that military equipment would generally not be subject to such a system, as any authorized Mechwarrior should be able to requisition equipment from their Clan's quartermaster (subject to inventory availability), yes?
(This also eliminates any sort of justification for a pay-to-win scenario, as Clan warriors essentially do not "buy" equipment.)

Also: in addition to influencing what resources (mainly 'Mechs and tech) one can access (higher/more Honor = greater access to more and/or better resources, loss of Honor = loss of access) Honor (more specifically, differences in Honor levels) could also be factored into player interaction - any consorting with dezgra (low-Honor) or even outright dishonorable (negative Honor) players and NPCs (e.g. Bandit Caste) could and would result in a loss of Honor (as one's own honor could and would be "tainted" by the association).

Taken together with CaveMan's ideas (most notably the notion of dishonorable actions decreasing one's Honor more and more quickly than honorable actions would replenish it), this could provide a strong set of incentives for taking action to maintain and increase one's Honor and for taking action to ensure that one's associates likewise maintain or increase their Honor levels... and/or to ensure that one only consorts with such honorable individuals (the notable exception being if one is intentionally playing a dezgra or even (potentially?) Bandit-affiliated character... ).

Your thoughts?

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Dihm, on 15 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

I'm not sure what version of Battletech you play, but show me ANY IS mech from the same era that can compare with a Clan omni at the same weight.

For fun, let's go with the Invasion era and use the Kit Fox. 30 tons. ER Large Laser, Small Pulse, LB-5X, Stream SRM-4. Give me a 30 ton IS mech that has the "weight and space capacity to cope with the 2-4 ton difference".

30 tons too restrictive? Okay. Give me an IS mech comparable to the Timber Wolf at 75 tons. There is nothing that can match it in armor, maneuverability, and firepower on the IS side.

I don't know where you think the IS has all this "weight and space capacity" available, perhaps you have things reversed?

Dihm, on 15 December 2011 - 06:13 AM, said:

I'm not sure what version of Battletech you play, but show me ANY IS mech from the same era that can compare with a Clan omni at the same weight.

For fun, let's go with the Invasion era and use the Kit Fox. 30 tons. ER Large Laser, Small Pulse, LB-5X, Stream SRM-4. Give me a 30 ton IS mech that has the "weight and space capacity to cope with the 2-4 ton difference".

30 tons too restrictive? Okay. Give me an IS mech comparable to the Timber Wolf at 75 tons. There is nothing that can match it in armor, maneuverability, and firepower on the IS side.

I don't know where you think the IS has all this "weight and space capacity" available, perhaps you have things reversed?

a re-configured rakashasa porbably can equal a timber to an extent...or flashman or orion...

as for maneuverability. thats also a pilot thing, good pilots would know how to use less maneuverable mech and terrain to his advantage.

[CaveMan]

Strum Wealh, on 17 December 2011 - 11:51 AM, said:

This makes it sound like one of the main reasons that not all Clan Mechwarriors are assigned OmniMechs is one of monetary scarcity - someone has to be paid - money must change hands - to either acquire or produce OmniMechs and their constituent parts and no one Clan has the financial resources to do so on a scale that would allow for more than a few handfuls of the crème de la crème of their Mechwarriors to be so equipped.
Otherwise, if money were truly a non-issue, why wouldn't each Clan (each of which have multiple planets worth of resources and personnel and automated and semi-automated facilities at their command) consolidate its construction programs (and simplify logistics and supply chains) by producing only OmniMechs, OmniFighters, and OmniVehicles (which they clearly don't)?
Moreover, how (and why) do the Clans make the money needed to produce and/or procure what equipment they do have without some form of inter- and intra-Clan economy in which to use their Kerenskys (or would it be "Kerenskies")? And what would the Diamond Sharks, as heavily based around their merchants as they they are, do if not sell stuff to the other Clans (and/or, eventually(?), the occasional Spheroid )?

The thing is, 'cost' and 'expense' in a Clan context refers directly to the expenditure of resources. The Clans don't have exchange rates, compounded interest, or supply-and-demand economics. Their people don't get 'paid' as such. Laborers labor for the good of the Clan (or because they have a gun pointed at them, depending on who you ask) and are supplied with food, housing, and clothes as befitting their needs and station. Thus the purpose of money in a Clan context is to lubricate an otherwise pure barter system (if Clan Ghost Bear buys a Star of Stormcrow OmniMechs from Clan Hell's Horses and pays for it with a shipment of raw materials from its Inner Sphere holdings, money can be used to even out the equation, with that cash being a down-payment on another Clan's future labor or resources).

'Profit' in a Clan context also has a different meaning than we're used to. It refers not to making more money, but rather to finding an advantageous use of resources that is more valuable than what you used to pay for those resources. An example would be buying a shipment of a newly discovered mineral ore that has properties that allow you to make lighter and stronger 'Mech armor, and paying for it with a shipment of forged steel beams. On the surface it seems like a fair exchange but in the long run it conveys an advantage.

The Clans practice a very pure sort of 'tribal communism'. Everything is divided up based on needs, ability, and standing within the Clan, at least in theory. This isn't to say Khans don't enjoy a luxurious lifestyle at the expense of the Laborers, it does happen rather frequently, but Clan society is set up in such a way that any 'frivolous' use of resources is strictly punished, even at the highest levels. A Khan engaging in 'un-Clanlike' behavior is directly accountable to the Clan's Keshik and they can have him/her removed.

So in the case of Omni vs Second-Line, the Clans produce Omnis only as "prestige" units because it requires physical resources, additional labor, and possibly raw materials that have to be sourced from another Clan's holdings in order to manufacture the specialized gyros, computers, and support technologies that make Omni-tech possible.

Another thing we tend to forget is that the Warrior caste is a very small percentage of Clan society, probably no more than 1 in 1000 Clan citizens is a serving Warrior. Even among the Trueborns only about 1 in 100 make it through all the Trials and tests. We tend to think of them as being all Warriors with a smattering of lesser castes because the Warriors are all that we see in the fiction, particularly from an IS perspective.
But the vast, vast majority of the Clan's resources goes to supporting its infrastructure and civilian populace, and while they do have multiple planets, almost all of them are extremely harsh environments that they're working hard and spending lots of resources to terraform. Remember that most of the animal life on the Clan worlds was genetically engineered just to survive because Earth-native life couldn't make it on those planets! The Smoke Jaguars would just be Jaguars if Huntress was a nice place to live.
So it stands to reason that with a philosophy that abhors waste, and relatively little resources available to expend on fighting (they have narrowed their wars down almost to duels as it is), the Clans would be very frugal about what they build.

Edited by CaveMan, 17 December 2011 - 01:06 PM.

[CaveMan]

Sorry, had to break this up because the post was running long.

Quote

Clan warriors could be allowed some form of allowance (as they may occasionally have need to interact with local economies (e.g. buying drinks and trinkets and such, which has been demonstrated in the canon, IIRC); also, I would think that they would think that their currency's namesakes would not be okay with the warrior caste simply taking and/or destroying the civilians' stuff at whim without some form of compensation). It could even be tied to one's Honor, where higher/more Honor grants one a greater allowance (as, clearly, one could be trusted to use it responsibly and honorably).

This is sort of what I was envisioning. Clan warriors are "salaried" based on their rank and honor level.

Quote

However, I suspect that military equipment would generally not be subject to such a system, as any authorized Mechwarrior should be able to requisition equipment from their Clan's quartermaster (subject to inventory availability), yes?
(This also eliminates any sort of justification for a pay-to-win scenario, as Clan warriors essentially do not "buy" equipment.)

Yes and no. Your level of honor is still going to be a factor in what you can requisition and how much. A solahma warrior in a backwater garrison isn't going to be able to just get a brand new Dire Wolf just because he fills out the paperwork. He'd be stuck with Star League gear or maybe second-line Clan tech.
The Clan will allocate precious resources where they'll do the most good.
Nor will a front-line warrior be able to requisition 50 BattleMechs on a whim, but he might be able to get ahold of a whole lot of Star League gear instead of a few Clan tech items. The most "expensive" gear will be available to those with the highest honor level, subject to availability, but the amounts would still be restricted based on what the Clan can afford to part with at that time.

[Terick]

Habokku, on 16 December 2011 - 04:03 AM, said:

If both 'mechs are in game, we'll test that theory out! Best of luck to ya.

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

Both are cannon designs,

RMP-4G (RWR design)
Gauss (2 tons ammo) , LB-10x (2 tons ammo, usually one cluster one solid), LPL, ML, Flammer and AMS. It is 85 tons, moves 4/8 (has MASC) and has almost as much armor as it can carry.

If you can use Java, look for the Shack and download their current client and we can fight it out on one of the dedicated servers.

Callsign: Janth. To the person that took my callsign here in MWO, I will hunt you down.

[Cyber Carns]

Slepnir, on 17 December 2011 - 01:23 AM, said:

Thats not an accurate statement at all. some clans are opportunistic, some are strict and some ignore it.

for example. blood spirits(on the offensive) & goliath scorpions will always follow zell even if you(IS) violate it, wolf and nova cat will drop it if you do. or like my lota galaxy hells horse they are misfits and refuse to follow zell for any reason. there are always exceptions of course. if the WOB guys show up no clan will grant them the honorof zell for they are beneath that for even some of the most adherant clans.

As somebody else pointed out, your trying to change the universe, your fixing what is not broken. clans and IS can efectively fight each other and have a great battle with the current system in place. the ideas expressed to "fix" things do not make it better so no i will not get on that bandwagon. ive been playing the game on the TT for close to 20 years, with a game(and sometimes multiple games) on average once per week. thats alot of real world experience on how things work. which is why i can say nothing needs to be fixed. it is one of the best darn systems out there for game balance and well written rules even after all these years.

IM not sure where you are getting that Im trying to change the Universe. Im happy with the way the BT/MW Universe is. All I was stating and thats why I linked the Zellbrigen Post, where it shows the rules of Zellbrigen. Im a Clanner 1st an formost (if you cant tell by the sig). And yes you are correct the different Clans used Zellbrigen in their own ways. As a Wolf if im in a battle against IS, and they did not follow Zellbrigen, I would not waste my time show Honor to those that disregard Honor.

[Habokku]

It seems to me, regardless of what occurs, some compromise is going to be needed in the future of Battletech, and by extension Mechwarrior. Some tweak or tweaks are going to probably happen somewhere I think.

I just want to try and find that compromise and get as many people on board with it as possible so that the people in charge can see our thoughts, musing and ideas and hopefully that will help shape their ideas on what that (or those) changes might be.

As I've said the Clans were done very well, and have a very unique and wonderful feel to them, in both their lore and how they play. Still, I think they can be done better, and closer to honoring their natures with a little fine tuning and careful, minor adjustments. Specifically to the weights of weapons in my humble opinion. (Or weapon ranges, or crit slots, etc.}

Just my thoughts

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Semyon Drakon]

Guys just quickly the Clans do have currency OUTSIDE the Warrior Caste, they are called work credits and allow the lower castes to purchase food and other necessities. remember the Clans don't do luxury items.

Military equipment is issued at the Touman level, with each unit being formed with its entire inventory of machines (including spares) and usually with extra machines available to allow for outfitting a unit better for field operations.

I don't know if there is a way that Clan mechwarriors can have some form of currency to enable the issue of more mech's. Perhaps one of the downsides of playing the Clans is that you choose a 'mech at character creation and unless your unit has access to spare machines, that is your issued 'mech until you play enough to earn another.

Semyon

[Dihm]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 17 December 2011 - 12:31 PM, said:

a re-configured rakashasa porbably can equal a timber to an extent...or flashman or orion...

as for maneuverability. thats also a pilot thing, good pilots would know how to use less maneuverable mech and terrain to his advantage.

Rakshasa is not available at the time of the Clan Invasion, but okay, let's go with it.

Same speed, so you managed to match that one. How about weapons? Rakshasa has 2 LRM-10s instead of LRM-20s. That's a pretty major difference. The laser load is of similar (Rakshasa trades the ER Mediums for standard Mediums), but using inferior (in heat/damage and range) IS lasers. Completely lacks the anti-infantry capability provided by the Timber Wolf's two machine guns. Has no ammo protection for its LRMs, since it lacks CASE. 11.5 tons of Ferro Fibrous armor verses the Timber Wolf's 12. IS Ferro returns less armor points per ton than Clan. I forget the exact values. Edit: IS gives 12% improvement (factor of 1.12), clan ferro improves by 20 % (factor of 1.2) and uses half the critical space for the IS version.

So while it matches it in speed, it fails to match in everything else. It is more vulnerable due to all the extra critical issues (3 XL engine crits in the side torso compared to 2 for Clan XL, lack of CASE protection) as well.

I'm not sure what your second point is supposed to mean. Why are you assuming that the IS would have the good pilot and not the Clans? For a fair judge of capabilities, we need to eliminate variables and use identical pilots. This actually goes counter to the rules, which have the Clans as better pilots and gunners.

Edited by Dihm, 21 December 2011 - 06:16 AM.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Dihm, on 21 December 2011 - 05:49 AM, said:

Rakshasa is not available at the time of the Clan Invasion, but okay, let's go with it.

Same speed, so you managed to match that one. How about weapons? Rakshasa has 2 LRM-10s instead of LRM-20s. That's a pretty major difference. The laser load is of similar (Rakshasa trades the ER Mediums for standard Mediums), but using inferior (in heat/damage and range) IS lasers. Completely lacks the anti-infantry capability provided by the Timber Wolf's two machine guns. Has no ammo protection for its LRMs, since it lacks CASE. 11.5 tons of Ferro Fibrous armor verses the Timber Wolf's 12. IS Ferro returns less armor points per ton than Clan. I forget the exact values. Edit: IS gives 12% improvement (factor of 1.12), clan ferro improves by 20 % (factor of 1.2) and uses half the critical space for the IS version.

So while it matches it in speed, it fails to match in everything else. It is more vulnerable due to all the extra critical issues (3 XL engine crits in the side torso compared to 2 for Clan XL, lack of CASE protection) as well.

I'm not sure what your second point is supposed to mean. Why are you assuming that the IS would have the good pilot and not the Clans? For a fair judge of capabilities, we need to eliminate variables and use identical pilots. This actually goes counter to the rules, which have the Clans as better pilots and gunners.

fair enough on the point about pilots. but theres tactics enviroment and terrain to take into account. not to mention the possability of support units for the I.S factions artilery possibly some aerospace?

Also like I said a well configured Rakshasa OR Orion probably can match it, not 100% but it will do the job. So anyway lets change the battlemech to Orion, since it was around during the invasion era, also any equipment used in these configurations where around during the invasion or leading up to it. (I triple checked)

Anyway heres what i came up with using 3030-3050 tech

First configuration, downgraded engine, can fit almost a mirror armament of a timberwolf (minus 1 Mg and MPL) has case to protect against ammo explosion. Added 12 tons FF armour 15 points less then Timberwolf (roughly) should off decent protection. Runs hot with only 13 double heat sinks, but then only a bad pilot would go in all guns blazing.

Engine XL 300 4 - 6 MP
Standard Structure
FF Armour 12 tons (215 points)
13 Double Heat Sinks
Weapons & Equipment
2x ERLL
2x ML
1xMG +1 ton Ammo
2x LRM20 +2 tons Ammo
2x CASE

0.5 Tons 4 Criticals remain

Second configuration, pretty much the same as the first. Downgraded lrm 20 to 15 (15s are pretty good replacement imo) still has case to protect against ammo explosions. Added 0.5 tons FF armour that brings it to 224 points, which is what 6 points less then a timberwolf roughly? Again provides decent protection. Added 2 extra double heat sinks giving it 15, for a total of 30 points of heat dissipation, according to TT rules depending on the mechs engine rating, extra heat sinks are included into an XL engine in this case 2 of the 5 extra double heat sinks are located in the XL engine. (if this has changed in later rule sets please let me know). Had 4 tons and 2 crits left over, added 2MPL compensating for the MPL and the extra MG that is usually on a timberwolf.

XL Engine 300 4 - 6 MP
Standard Structure
FF Armour 12.5 Tons (224 point)
15 Double Heat Sinks
Weapons & Equipment
2x ERLL
2x ML
2x MPL
1x MG + 1 Ton Ammo
2x LRM15 +2 Tons Ammo
2x CASE

Third configuration. Same as the second configuration, removed the both lower arm actuators and MPL freed up 4 ciritcals and 4 tons allowing for the installation of a MASC system which should compensate for the downgraded engine. Still has CASE 15 double heat sinks and a respectable armament.

XL Engine 300 4 - 6 MP
Standard Structure
FF Armour 12.5 Tons (224 point)
15 Double Heat Sinks
Weapons & Equipment
2x ERLL
2x ML
1x MG + 1 Ton Ammo
2x LRM15 +2 Tons Ammo
2x CASE
MASC

Well imo these 3 configurations look like they could give a Timberwolf a good battle 1 on 1 and agian obviously not 100% there has to be a challenge in takeing down superrior technology. (which i want to do in a flashman)

[Dihm]

It's still inferior, you cannot match at the same tonnage. You may be able to get a SIMILAR load out, but the weapons themselves are inferior as well.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

also; you had to make those 3 custom builds to match the
stock build of a single clan mech... to say nothing of the entire clan
3050 roster.

[Kudzu]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 21 December 2011 - 10:33 AM, said:

also; you had to make those 3 custom builds to match the
stock build of a single clan mech... to say nothing of the entire clan
3050 roster.

Using BV2 and 4/5 pilots:

Timber Wolf (Mad Cat): 2,737

Rakshasa: 1,795

ON1-K Orion (3025):1,429

ON1-M Orion (LB-10X): 1,414

ON2-M Orion (Gauss rifle): 1,828

[Dihm]

Further proof that one IS mech can never equal a Clan mech of equal tonnage, thanks Kudzu.

Edited by Dihm, 21 December 2011 - 11:09 AM.

[GDL Havoc]

Good points Dihm, Kudzu, and Aaron. This is Habokku by the way, just posting under my GDL tag.

As has been pointed out, it takes a concerted effort to match a stock Clan omnimech's firepower with only I.S. tech that is available at the time of the Clan's invasion, and that's having to custom build something from the ground up, a very costly and time-consuming process.

Again, Clan weapons should be superior. That's what I've been saying all along. I want them to maintain the edge they do have, be it range, or damage done per-weapon.

The main thing I want is for the choice to matter.

I want to know that if someone goes with the Clans, that they have a tangible set of tradeoffs for doing so. Either in how the weapons are balanced out, or some other means. The same goes for the Inner Sphere as well. I'm not saying make them equal to the I.S. There are other ways to help the balance between the two factions that I'm certain are being addressed and looked at by the Developers. What I AM saying however is that the choice shouldn't be so obvious. Any new player coming in to this wonderfully vibrant and fun universe shouldn't have the choice made so blatantly one-sided as it currently is.

That's what I'm arguing for, and that's why I stand by the thought of making the weapons weights equivalent regardless of Clan or I.S., with the power advantage still pointed towards the clans, but not so glaringly so.

Just my thoughts. Thank you all for yours so far.

<S>

-Havoc
-Gray Death Legion Mercenaries

[Dihm]

GDL_Havoc, on 22 December 2011 - 12:32 AM, said:

I want to know that if someone goes with the Clans, that they have a tangible set of tradeoffs for doing so. Either in how the weapons are balanced out, or some other means.

That's the problem. It's a no-win for PGI. There IS no tradeoff for being Clan, as things currently stand. EVERYTHING is better. That will **** people off if you allow players to be the Clan. If they change things you'll **** off many people because "that ain't Battletech."

[Scarlett Avignon]

Dihm, on 22 December 2011 - 06:44 AM, said:

That's the problem. It's a no-win for PGI. There IS no tradeoff for being Clan, as things currently stand. EVERYTHING is better. That will **** people off if you allow players to be the Clan. If they change things you'll **** off many people because "that ain't Battletech."

But it very much IS Battletech. Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be nerfed (seriously? make their tech the same at the IS?) or it doesn't exist.

People will ALWAYS find something to bitch about. If they only want to fight IS opponents, they they can go fight down in the southern Inner Sphere.

Personally, I think they easiest way to limit the Clans is to have each Clan spot an actively contested bloodname. 25 warriors for each name. This would do two things. Preserve the Clan culture of 'survival of the fittest' while also keeping their spirit of being a small, but elite fighting force.

[Dihm]

Oh, trust me, I don't want it changed, I want it just like it is supposed to be in the Universe. Just pointing out that people will complain either way, no way PGI can get around that.