181 replies to this topic

[Evgeny Bear]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 12 December 2011 - 06:29 PM, said:

yeah but the clans arent just some NPC encounter as an end-instance; they're a playable faction in a game - that's the problem here, such crippling overpower given to any player who wants it. Let's be honest here, the clan zellbriggen junk was thrown in at the last second when FASA's half-baked playtesting revealed how ridiculous these things were

No its a sign of honering the sacred tradition of Duelling!
It is the peak of a Warrior tradition and a sign of civilisation.
A manner of cultivated agression in order to sharpen the Tallents of a perfect Soldier.



... or so =P

Edited by Andar89, 12 December 2011 - 06:34 PM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Zureal, on 12 December 2011 - 05:25 PM, said:

Also why you think Kerinsky left with just 6000 people is so ignorant as to border on idiocy. just read this. "Kerensky’s loyal forces rescued some one million civilians from
the fighting, and likewise secured for themselves significant enough
resources—both military and industrial—to build yet another civilization,
this one on the world of Strana Mechty. While ground forces
secured embarkation points on all five Pentagon Worlds, the space
forces began transporting as many people and resources away
from the growing war as they could (though with a focus on the
military and scientist communities)." P.22 Operation Klondike

Well, feel free to correct the "idiocy" here, then. I don't pretend to know every supplement there is, just going with the wiki for most time. But if the wiki says "600 families" and you say "million people", then it's either some REALLY big families, or someone noticed the suspiciously puny Clan starting numbers and stepped up to retcon hard.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans - thanks for the tip, have fun editing!

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 12 December 2011 - 06:48 PM.

[Zureal]

If you want "balanced" so much then play in the "clan vs clan" circles. I for one look foreword to fighting the dirty clanners with my IS friends. You just doint like them cuz they are hard to beat. Like all the new generation, you whine about any game that is to hard. You should of heard all the whiners when ninja guiden came out, loved that game.

Bedsides, its not like they are going to make getting clan stuff easy, im sure it will be hard as hell. Also, even if i manage to get a TimberWolf, im sure every IS player is going to want to take it from me, and if I lose it its guna suck.

Leave the clanners as they are. You are proposing the same thing as if you said "hey, lets take computers out of the US military so everyone els can beat up on them" lol, the US military is OP, yet people with tech from 40 years ago are still giving them a fight for there lives.

Tech ant everything, its how you fight that determines who wins.

[Zureal]

Alex Wolfe, on 12 December 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

Well, feel free to correct the "idiocy" here, then. I don't pretend to know every supplement there is, just going with the wiki for most time. But if the wiki says "600 families" and you say "million people", then it's either some REALLY big families, or someone noticed the suspiciously puny Clan starting numbers and stepped up to retcon hard.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans - thanks for the tip, have fun editing!

lol, you must have a vary SMALL family, cuz my family has well over 30 people in it by itself. So when they say family, they probably ment, the WHOLE family.

Oh, and by the way, im quoting canon material here, and i read all and every supplemental AND book XD lol, so ima BT nerd

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Zureal, on 12 December 2011 - 07:25 PM, said:

If you want "balanced" so much then play in the "clan vs clan" circles. I for one look foreword to fighting the dirty clanners with my IS friends. You just doint like them cuz they are hard to beat. Like all the new generation, you whine about any game that is to hard. You should of heard all the whiners when ninja guiden came out, loved that game.

Bedsides, its not like they are going to make getting clan stuff easy, im sure it will be hard as hell. Also, even if i manage to get a TimberWolf, im sure every IS player is going to want to take it from me, and if I lose it its guna suck.

Leave the clanners as they are. You are proposing the same thing as if you said "hey, lets take computers out of the US military so everyone els can beat up on them" lol, the US military is OP, yet people with tech from 40 years ago are still giving them a fight for there lives.

Tech ant everything, its how you fight that determines who wins.

and let me guess, back in your day you had to walk uphill both ways when going to school eh?
instead of us whining, one could be just as stupid to accuse you of jealousy that things are easier
to balance and work out now than in the past - see how that doesnt mean anything?

best words: if it aint broke don't fix it
guess what; clantech is broke whether you choose to see it or not.
Everyone keeps attaching the slippery slope argument [http://rationalwiki..../Slippery_slope]
to any attempt at balancing

answer me this if all the Great houses have the same tech, how come no one
whines about them being 'all the same'?

[Strum Wealh]

Alex Wolfe, on 12 December 2011 - 06:45 PM, said:

Well, feel free to correct the "idiocy" here, then. I don't pretend to know every supplement there is, just going with the wiki for most time. But if the wiki says "600 families" and you say "million people", then it's either some REALLY big families, or someone noticed the suspiciously puny Clan starting numbers and stepped up to retcon hard.

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans - thanks for the tip, have fun editing!

Well, the reference to "800 of his best warriors and 600 civilian families" seems to be the point of contention.

There is, however, an obvious point: the statement references 600 civilian families and 800 servicemen, but what about non-civilian families - that is, the servicemens' families.
After all, I would doubt that every Mechwarrior, ship captain, AeroSpace pilot, infantryman, and so on would leave their spouse and children (and possibly their parents and maybe a few favored and capable in-laws) in a disintegrating situation on the Pentagon Worlds if they could help it.

I think that we could believe that most of those 800 warriors might have had families, as would the crewmen of the ships that transported the 800 (and their families) and the additional 600 civilian families, which might swell the numbers a bit... though probably not quite to a million (the common McKenna-class WarShips, for example, had a crew of just under 800).

Though, the Sarna article on the Exodus Civil War (which draws from The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky (published by FASA in 1999) and Invading Clans (published by FASA in 1995) rather than Historical: Operation Klondike (published by Catalyst in 2010), which Zureal quotes) mentions that Nicholas Kerensky (gotta keep our Kerenskys straight ) "travelled to all five Pentagon Worlds, calling for a Second Exodus in order to escape the violence of the Exodus Civil War and to carry on the legacy of the Star League" and that "thousands of people rallied to Nicholas' cause and departed with him".

This would seem to support Aaron DeChevalier's argument by implying that:
- Approximately six million left the Inner Sphere under Alexandr Kerensky's leadership, arriving on the Pentagon Worlds.
- Following Alexandr's death, thousands, not a million, left the Pentagon Worlds under Nicholas Kerensky's leadership, arriving at the Kerensky Cluster and forming the Clans.

Perhaps someone at Catalyst messed up and/or wasn't as familiar with the past (decade-old) material as they should have been?

Edited by Strum Wealh, 13 December 2011 - 11:58 AM.

[Zureal]

I was just quoting the material, so who knows? but ima stick with the written word at this juncture.

Aaron DeChavilier, on 12 December 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:

and let me guess, back in your day you had to walk uphill both ways when going to school eh?
instead of us whining, one could be just as stupid to accuse you of jealousy that things are easier
to balance and work out now than in the past - see how that doesnt mean anything?

best words: if it aint broke don't fix it
guess what; clantech is broke whether you choose to see it or not.
Everyone keeps attaching the slippery slope argument [http://rationalwiki..../Slippery_slope]
to any attempt at balancing

answer me this if all the Great houses have the same tech, how come no one
whines about them being 'all the same'?

Cuz they are not, each House has Tech and equipment that only they have with any common availability. least till the end of the jihad.

Your argument reminds me of why Warhammer 40K players hate the Necrons, they are OP like the Clans are to the IS, yet they are simply harder to beat is all, why cant you see it as such? the Devs are NOT going to make it EASY to get clan stuff.

Ether way, I will agree to disagree with you, and you with me. I like the clans the way they are and doint think anything should change in that regard. I only want it to be HARD to get there stuff. Also, it is VARY EXPENSIVE to maintain and get clan stuff to. specialy compared to IS stuff.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

ok Warhawk 85 Ton Omni mech 32.5 tons pod space free 26 critical slots free. XL engine Ferro Fibours armour Endo steel structure CAN NOT be removed or changed

Longbow 85 Ton Battlemech 31.0 tons free 51 Critical slots free Stnadard engine Standard structure standard armour, CAN be changed

oh well look at that. its 1.5 tons less then a clan omnimech

Aaron DeChavilier, on 12 December 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:

best words: if it aint broke don't fix it
guess what; clantech is broke whether you choose to see it or not.
Everyone keeps attaching the slippery slope argument [http://rationalwiki..../Slippery_slope]
to any attempt at balancing

broken Nope. you said it your self "if it aint broke dont fix it" and clan tech isnt borken. clearly remains unchanged since Fasa ran the show...

[Habokku]

Zureal, on 12 December 2011 - 04:51 PM, said:

Habokku

I am far to tired to read all of this, but from what i read so far you are sorely lacking in Clan History, there development, and how they progressed. I suggest you read up on these things before you make ignorant assumptions, assumptions that I at least find annoying, and in many cases, baseless.

At the vary least read up on them here http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Clans . This is a good place to start and has some good general information on there history.

Greetings Zureal! I'm sorry I caught you while you were tired! May I suggest taking a nap and coming back with fresh eyes to perhaps re-read my thoughts? I usually find I don't think my best when I'm sleepy.

As for my sorely lacking, I'm actually very very familiar with the clans. In fact I'm quite well versed in the history of the clans, their lore and background, as well as how they developed both technologically and culturally. I prefer the Inner Sphere (I do I love me some Ghost Bears though!!) but to call me ignorant when I've done nothing but try and be respectful and show that I want the spirit of the clans to remain as it is now, is a rather low blow don't you think? I'm merely expressing some thoughts on how to improve the balance of Battletech (NOT MechWarrior Online, I'll note... I'm speaking more to Battletech as a whole, the canon, and what could/can be done to make the universe, and by extension the games that come from said universe, more balanced) from a purely logical perspective.

I'm also not making assumptions, may I note. I'm proposing an idea, a concept of how exactly to go about balancing something that in my view needs to be addressed with an eye to the lore, and the history and essence of what the Clans are. I'm sorry you found my thoughts annoying. I didn't write them out to annoy you or anyone else, but to try and start people to thinking, to look at Battletech objectively together & start to identify any problems or issues, be they recent (Dark Age... ugh) or long standing, and address them together, as a community. We're all in this together, be you a Clan pilot, a Mercenary, a House Regular, or just someone who enjoys the fluff and history of the universe.

Also, thank you for that link but I've read over that page several times over the years along with a couple of my source books fairly recently while hanging out with my Game Master, which sparked the discussion that brought me to the idea I expressed in my original post.

I hope that clears things up, and thank you for your thoughts all the same.

I look forwards to hearing back from you if you'd care to reply.

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

P.S. Wow this thread kinda grew while I was asleep, then was over at my parents house doing Christmas Decorations with my family! I'll try to peruse over more of it and add more of my thoughts as needed.

[Zureal]

Then how exactly is regressing the clan tech edge "logical"? Whats "logical" is that there would be alot of tech advance, and thats what happened. I see nothing wrong with the clans tech and equipment. "logically" sleaking.

[Habokku]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

ok Warhawk 85 Ton Omni mech 32.5 tons pod space free 26 critical slots free. XL engine Ferro Fibours armour Endo steel structure CAN NOT be removed or changed

Longbow 85 Ton Battlemech 31.0 tons free 51 Critical slots free Stnadard engine Standard structure standard armour, CAN be changed

oh well look at that. its 1.5 tons less then a clan omnimech

Hey ya Kodiak, good to see ya here again! And you just made my point about weapons balance without even realizing it I think, namely the LRM weight difference.

I need to take a moment and note that both those 'mechs you listed, while the same tonnage, and acting in a fire-support role of a sort, are radically different designs. Firstly, the Warhawk/Masakari is obviously a Clan Omnimech, and the Longbow is obviously a Battlemech. They are going to be very similar in free weight as a result of that. The critical slots are much lower in the Omni but with an XL engine, Ferro Fiberous Armor, and Endo Steel internals, your critical slots get eaten up quick.

That said, lets preform an experiment. Since they are so very close in free weight, lets assume we give them the same armament.

Long Bow: 31 tons free. Armed with two medium lasers, two LRM 20's, and lets say, for giggles, a pair of SRM 4's. That's 2 tons for the Lasers, 20 for the LRM's, and 4 for the SRM's Now, that leaves us five tons for ammo.. Hm.. So one ton for the SRM 4's to share, and two tons for each LRM 20. That uses all 31 tons exactly. I'll note: No CASE, no extra heatsinks, no BAP or ECM. I'd call this a moderately solid configuration, if not a little on the risky side with no CASE.

Now, using the Masakari/Warhawk: 32.5 tons free. 2 Clan LRM 20's, 2 ER Med Lasers, and a pair of Streak 4 tubes. (I'm using streaks because they're the same weight as the I.S. SRM 4, for this example) That's 2 tons for the ER Med lasers, 10 tons for the LRM 20's, and 4 tons for the Streak SRM's. Lets assume 2 tons of ammo per LRM and 1 ton for the Streak 4's as well. That totals up to 21 tons. For 21 tons, less than 2/3rds the available weight load, I've outfitted what took 31 tons to put on an Inner Sphere 'mech. Speaking from a purely objective standpoint, I'd like to ask.. how is this balanced? Oh and the Warhawk has Case in both torsos as well

I'm not saying it's broken, I'm saying it's skewed. If we even the weight of the Clan LRM launchers out to say, 30% lighter, or the same weight but with Artemis IV built in by default, it still allows you to field this very configuration on the Warhawk/Masakari (add 10 tons to the total) And you've got an extra ton and a half of room left over to add in armor, or ammo, or a heatsink if you'd like it.

It's still hands down better than the Longbow, with built in Artemis IV FCS on the LRM's, much more efficient Streak 4 launchers, and ER Medium Lasers. Not to mention CASE on all the ammo. Sure you could say it's 'more fragile' than the I.S. counterpart, with the XL engine, but I still have to get through your armor before I can reach the creamy center of that Omnimech, and said Omnimech is going to be hitting me more often (Clan pilots have higher piloting ability on average in the canon) and with more missiles when he/she does hit.

This is what I'm getting at. I would like there to be tangible choices for not only I.S. pilots, but clan pilots as well. Make the choices mean something, If you want to put LRM 20's on a 'mech, that's awesome! Just understand that those are now your primary weapons, and that if you want another big gun, (or two) You're going to have to start sacrificing other things such as speed, or armor, or jump capacity in some cases, to do it.

That's the biggest point I'm trying to make. Let's make the choices mean something.

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

broken Nope. you said it your self "if it aint broke dont fix it" and clan tech isnt borken. clearly remains unchanged since Fasa ran the show...

And the fact that it has remained unchanged is, in my view, a detriment to the games that have come along afterward that were based on Battletech. Just because something hasn't been done, doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

Hopefully that made some sense. I look forwards to seeing what else others have to say on the topic!

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Habokku]

Zureal, on 12 December 2011 - 09:51 PM, said:

Then how exactly is regressing the clan tech edge "logical"? Whats "logical" is that there would be alot of tech advance, and thats what happened. I see nothing wrong with the clans tech and equipment. "logically" sleaking.

Hi again Zureal

I'm not calling for a regression of Clan Tech, far from it I assure you! Clan tech will still be superior in most all aspects, but lets take a look at this "logically".

Clan ERL laser, compared to the I.S. ERL laser.

Clan ER Large Laser
Heat: 12
Damage: 10
Crit Slots: 1
Weight: 4 tons
Ranges: 1-8 Short; 9-16 Medium; 17-25 Long

By Comparison:

I.S. ER Large Laser
Heat: 12
Damage: 8
Crit Slots: 2
Weight: 5 tons
Range: 1-7 Short; 8-14 Medium; 15-19 Long.

The only change I've suggested, the only difference I would recommend is this.

Make them weigh the same.

Don't touch the better range. don't touch the higher damage, or the fact that it takes up less space.

Just even out the weight.

Clan tech SHOULD be better! It's Star League era with 200 some odd years of R&D working to improve it. It makes sense that the range would be a little better, and that methods had been found to reduce the size of the weapon and make more efficient use of the space. But the mass of the weapon, the parts needed to produce the laser, would still be there.

The same goes for the Autocannons, and LRM Launchers, and SRM launchers.

I say let the clans have their superior tech, but let's bring the weight of these weapons more in line with their I.S. counterparts. That's the # 1 thing that needs to be done to bring things in line, but still maintain the obvious superiority of the Clan's technological advantage.

Of course that's not even going in to the Clan Double Heat Sink, or Clan CASE systems.. etc.

Hopefully that cleared up my thoughts a bit.

<S> Looking forwards to hearing more from you Zureal!

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Kudzu]

Habokku, on 12 December 2011 - 09:56 PM, said:

Speaking from a purely objective standpoint, I'd like to ask.. how is this balanced?

And I would answer: what's the BV difference between the two? I'm willing to bet you can get an extra medium or heavy mech on your side with it.

[Zureal]

Habokku, look at it this way, ill use a real world example. Look at computers, I have more computing power in a 5 year old Ipod, that weighs what... 8kg? doint actually know how much they weigh, but i know its puny. Anyways, look at a computer just 40 years ago, they weighed TONs. so if we can reduce the SIZE, WEIGHT, AND make them MORE POWERFUL. Why couldent the clans do the same with weapons. Hell, look at real world weapons, they weigh LESS, shoot further, and more accurate than they did 40 years ago. Again, if the US military could do this, why couldent the clans???

[Zureal]

Kudzu, on 12 December 2011 - 10:44 PM, said:

And I would answer: what's the BV difference between the two? I'm willing to bet you can get an extra medium or heavy mech on your side with it.

Oh, and yes, the BV difference is HUGE, its part of what makes IS weapons likable, they are AFFORDABLE. its like trying to sell a tank made my ferrarie that costs 20 million each, rather than the home built abrams that costs 7.5 million each.

sure the clans might have better stuff, but I have MORE stuff. Just look at the WW2, germany were the clans, and the USA and Britain were the IS.

Germany had better stuff in almost every way, yet we won, and a BIG part of that was NUMBERS and just how dame AFFORDABLE all our stuff was XD lol

Edited by Zureal, 12 December 2011 - 11:43 PM.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

right then lets really compare I.S and CLRM20's (there is a pattern it works in 2's)

before we start 1 Hex = 30 meters (using fourth edition and master rules revised edtion, not had time to acqurrie latest rule books)


IS LARM20

Range 21 (630M)

Damage 20

Heat 6

10 T

6 Crits


CLRM20

Range 21 (630M)

Damage 20

Heat 6

5 T

5 Crits

right... so its half the weight and 1 crit diffrence how is that skewed they have the same damage, heat, range and ammo per ton


Gauss

Range 22 (660M)

Damage 15

Heat 1

15 T

7 Crits


CGauss

Range 22 (660M)

Damage 15

Heat 1

13 T

6 Crits

ok... soo its 2 Tons and 1 Crit diffrence.

LB-20X

Range 12 (320M)

Damage 20 (slug) or 1 per pellete (cluster ammo)

Heat 6

14 T

11 Crits


CLB-20X

Range 12 (320M)

Damage 20 (slug) or 1 per pellete (cluster ammo)

Heat 6

12 T

9 Crits

...yet another weapon with similar stats, except weight and size.

point is Clan tech is already balanced. its not like they have a "OMFG BRAIN MELTING INSTA DEATH ERPPC" now is it?.so what if clan energy technology have better stats it really isnt a massive upgrade (except for range)

[Aaron DeChavilier]

oh the Necrons...
Necrons are imbal; their basic infantry weapon kills outright
on a 6 (or 4+ cant remember) their basic infantry weapon also
causes Glancing Hits on any vehicle on a 6!
and these guns are rapid fire = able to fire twice at 12" oronce at 24"
...the basic...infantry....gun

now Kodiak, you can compare weapon to weapon the differences;
however Habokku's example shows how clantech is imbal when
the parts are put into a whole. The longbow vs masakari - read again
look at what each can do with ~30tons, there's the proof

now as for your arg, Zureal; by that logic the Inner Sphere
would have had the same benefit. 300 yrs of tech stagnation
in a digital age? that's a harder sell than 200 yrs of colonists
who fight each other constantly somehow getting this stuff.

by your reasoning; the Inner Sphere would have invented
different but just as powerful analogues to clan tech...
like harder hitting A\C rounds or longer range stock A\Cs
or medium lasers that recycle faster but not are not pulse lasers

dont bring the real world timeline into a fictitious universe
it will unravel the fictional continuity. we're talking from a
perspective of: it doesn't matter how they got these weapons
what matters is how these weapons are balanced.

and most clanners have proven absolute power corrupts
absolutely, for the sole reason : the majority clan players
play for the game advantage and not the lore. the lore is
just window dressing to them.

edit1: the above statement; and the fact they wont budge
off their game breaking 'clans on a hill' not even for a single
stat drop. Most bring up the 'Slippery Slope' logical fallacy
that clans will somehow die off if even one stat gets tweaked!
hows that for rational?

http://rationalwiki..../Slippery_slope

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 13 December 2011 - 10:25 AM.

[IceSerpent]

Aside from canon / non-canon debate, here's an idea - what if clan / IS tech is balanced by clan weapons having longer reload times? This would give clans longer range plus heavier punch on alpha strike at the expense of rate of fire, while IS would have a rapid fire capability at the expense of shorter range and lighter punch on alpha. So, neither side is really overpowered, but they are still sufficiently different from each other in terms of gameplay.

[Kudzu]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 13 December 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

oh the Necrons...
Necrons are imbal; their basic infantry weapon kills outright
on a 6 (or 4+ cant remember) their basic infantry weapon also
causes Glancing Hits on any vehicle on a 6!
and these guns are rapid fire = able to fire twice at 12" oronce at 24"
...the basic...infantry....gun

now Kodiak, you can compare weapon to weapon the differences;
however Habokku's example shows how clantech is imbal when
the parts are put into a whole. The longbow vs masakari - read again
look at what each can do with ~30tons, there's the proof

now as for your arg, Zureal; by that logic the Inner Sphere
would have had the same benefit. 300 yrs of tech stagnation
in a digital age? that's a harder sell than 200 yrs of colonists
who fight each other constantly somehow getting this stuff.

by your reasoning; the Inner Sphere would have invented
different but just as powerful analogues to clan tech...
like harder hitting A\C rounds or longer range stock A\Cs
or medium lasers that recycle faster but not are not pulse lasers

dont bring the real world timeline into a fictitious universe
it will unravel the fictional continuity. we're talking from a
perspective of: it doesn't matter how they got these weapons
what matters is how these weapons are balanced.

and most clanners have proven absolute power corrupts
absolutely, for the sole reason : the majority clan players
play for the game advantage and not the lore. the lore is
just window dressing to them.

edit1: the above statement; and the fact they wont budge
off their game breaking 'clans on a hill' not even for a single
stat drop. Most bring up the 'Slippery Slope' logical fallacy
that clans will somehow die off if even one stat gets tweaked!
hows that for rational?

http://rationalwiki..../Slippery_slope

Battle Value. There's your balancing.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

IceSerpent, on 13 December 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Aside from canon / non-canon debate, here's an idea - what if clan / IS tech is balanced by clan weapons having longer reload times? This would give clans longer range plus heavier punch on alpha strike at the expense of rate of fire, while IS would have a rapid fire capability at the expense of shorter range and lighter punch on alpha. So, neither side is really overpowered, but they are still sufficiently different from each other in terms of gameplay.

careful, you're straightforward ideas may lead to being slapped
with a Slippery Slope argument around here
see I agree that clantech should be scary, just not broken
and BV isn't done that well either and that has been stated
here and over in the TT fora