181 replies to this topic

[Xen Wolf]

I would prefer it be left the same. (Clan Wolf pilot here) For the reason of keeping it accurate to story line. Although I would not mind a lack of number of missiles as long as the punching power is the same per IS missiles. As for the reason I think you should give the clanner the advantage technologically is by the looks of it there are more freebirth then trueborn warriors on this forum. So you will have your balance there. Just like the story line the IS outnumbered clanners by a lot the only reason the clans were able to carve out a part of the inner sphere is do to the advance tech. I say what you should do is make the clans bid for the right to fight a battle amongst are self's. And the lowest bidder get to represent our clan in that battle. In which case I say we have a rank structure and touman. I say if weapons are the same I have no problem bidding a star versus a company. As the timeline progresses and they win battles they should get access to the the weapons and chassis. Also in my opinion you should have the clans have to carve out a section and then once its a reasonable size allow the tech to be shared. Cause I bet once the tech is shared it will halt the advance just as it was in the story line when the clans came back from re-electing ilkhan they had trouble fighting thanks to the wolf's dragoons sharing tech. I say let it go like the story line and then just share tech before we cut up to much and see how it goes from there. Cause I know the IS pilots would not mind get a clan mech and I would not mind getting a Sunder and loading it out with my favorite loadout ER PPC. And have the Clans bid and the IS can bring all the forces they have on planet.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 13 December 2011 - 10:20 AM, said:

now Kodiak, you can compare weapon to weapon the differences;
however Habokku's example shows how clantech is imbal when
the parts are put into a whole. The longbow vs masakari - read again
look at what each can do with ~30tons, there's the proof

ok re-did my calcualtions and...

Longbow 1
ST Engine
ST Armour
ST Structure
43 Free Tons
51 crits free
(sorry forgot to remove the heat sinks form my first set of calcualtions)

Longbow 2
St Engine
Endo Strucutre
FF Armour
48.5 Free Tons
23 Crits Free

Longbow 3
ST Engine
FF Armour
ST Structure
44.5 Free Tons
37 Free Crits

Longbow 4
XL Engine
ST Armour
ST Structure
49.5 Free Tons
45 Free Crits

Longbow 5
XL Engine
FF Armour
St Structure
51.0 Free Tons
31 Free crits

Longbow 6
XL Engine
ST Armour
Endo Structure
53.5 Free Tons
31 Free Crits

custom Warhawk 1
XL Engine (FIXED)
FF Armour (FIXED)
ST Structure (FIXED)
10x Double Heat Sinks (FIXED)
26 Criticals Free
32.5 tons Free

custom Warhawk 2
XL Engine (FIXED)
FF Armour (FIXED)
ST Structure (FIXED)
10x Double Heat Sinks (FIXED)
26 Criticals Free
32.5 tons Free

i think i made my point...

http://www.sarna.net/wiki/OmniMech ...

p.s i should meniton that these wepaons fit perfeclty on thoes chassis. i will also point out that to make these weapons fit on some of the chassis i lsited have less heat sinks the the 7Q Longbow some have more..

2x LRM20 + 4T Ammo
2xLRM5 + 2T Ammo
2xML

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 13 December 2011 - 12:46 PM.

[Kudzu]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 13 December 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

and BV isn't done that well either and that has been stated
here and over in the TT fora

And no one is saying "use BV2". But a well done BV system with calculations made to fit the game (and that can be adjusted as needed with testing and data from within the game) is a much better fix that balances the two while retaining the feel of both clan and IS.

Also, please stop writing in haiku form. It's annoying.

[Omigir]

I would not mind Clan tech being aquire by special event only, and even then that only being via salvaging.

I.E. Devs jump in on a random mach in clan tech and every one has to some whow work together to take them down.

atleast at first. maybe after Op Bulldog clan tech can be more reasily had or something.

like 1 or 2 stars vs maybe 4 or 5 lances? fair fight? maybe?

Edited by Omigir, 13 December 2011 - 01:37 PM.

[KingCobra]

From a Devs point i would not even try to use cannon in my calculations of IS Vs Clan i would in fact say here you want to be a IS player here ya go have a red beamed large laser that has a range of 750 and a firepower of 7.Then for the clan guys here ya go a green ER large laser 750 range 7 firepower.After a bit no one would care there the same range or firepower as long as one is red and one is green,ect.I would do this with all weapons,electronics,chassis performance rather IS or clan.WOW is this what we call balance hahaha i think it would be.Just be different on mech chassis for the win.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

KingCobra, on 13 December 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

From a Devs point i would not even try to use cannon in my calculations of IS Vs Clan i would in fact say here you want to be a IS player here ya go have a red beamed large laser that has a range of 750 and a firepower of 7.Then for the clan guys here ya go a green ER large laser 750 range 7 firepower.After a bit no one would care there the same range or firepower as long as one is red and one is green,ect.I would do this with all weapons,electronics,chassis performance rather IS or clan.WOW is this what we call balance hahaha i think it would be.Just be different on mech chassis for the win.

and i ask again... what happen when the I,S get acess to Light PPC, Heavy PPC, Snub Nose PPC and Light Gauss hm?

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 13 December 2011 - 03:12 PM.

[Xen Wolf]

I say its silly to change the parameter just because it seems unfair that was part of the excitement was seeing how the IS would overcome a advanced military culture and maintain their freedoms. You should not follow the story line if you are going to just change it to what seems fair. If I can not fight in a clan then I will fight for the AFFC and I would like the challenge of overcome their might with my tactics and superior use of all elements in a battlefield. You can modify a fight in real life so why take the struggle away in a game at least in the game its not life and death if you lose. Maybe it should be then you would fight harder and use more tactics. Also what would be the point of taking on a hard opponent if you can not raze the spoils afterwards to increase you unit strength. I say make the clans have to bid low enough so it is equal or you lose XP or money or supplies or what ever you are using to determine a player strength and advancement. Keep it as close to the story as possible or what is the point. Like i said earlier as a clanner I would glad bid a star vs company of course until they get all the tech then maybe a binary to company. I am not that crazy to fight that outnumbered if they have the same equipment.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 13 December 2011 - 03:05 PM, said:

and i ask again... what happen when the I,S get acess to Light PPC, Heavy PPC, Snub Nose PPC and Light Gauss hm?

oh you mean a list of IS tech that is balanced?
LPPC = 5 damage at PPC range for half tonnage and and one less critical slots and minimum range still there?
HPPC = 15 damage at PPC range for three more tons, one more crit, 15 heat, and still minimum range
Snub = 10/8/5 (damage range falloff) for normal PPC heat, shorter range curve, 1 less ton, 1 less crit
LGuass = half-damage of normal gauss, 3 less tons and 2 less crits
all of the above weapons have some sort of deficit

these weapons are work arounds to the clan ERPPC
CERPPC = no min range, 15 damage, only 10 heat, and the range bracket of a gauss rifle
packed into a weapon that is only 6 tons and 2 crits
all the other PPC's can only give the IS player one or two of the above stats not all at once

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 14 December 2011 - 08:07 AM, said:

oh you mean a list of IS tech that is balanced?
LPPC = 5 damage at PPC range for half tonnage and and one less critical slots and minimum range still there?
HPPC = 15 damage at PPC range for three more tons, one more crit, 15 heat, and still minimum range
Snub = 10/8/5 (damage range falloff) for normal PPC heat, shorter range curve, 1 less ton, 1 less crit
LGuass = half-damage of normal gauss, 3 less tons and 2 less crits
all of the above weapons have some sort of deficit

these weapons are work arounds to the clan ERPPC
CERPPC = no min range, 15 damage, only 10 heat, and the range bracket of a gauss rifle
packed into a weapon that is only 6 tons and 2 crits
all the other PPC's can only give the IS player one or two of the above stats not all at once

well first things first. i keep saying it but you dont seem to listen or just disregard omni mech rules but...

clan use omni mechs mostly

omni mechs tend to be limited in free weight and space.

omnimechs arent very customizable due to FIXED hardware.

and you think its balanced that I.S get the smaller and lighter weapons(LPPC/Lgauss...) to cope with there spacious and fairly weight free battlemechs that can appanretly carry 2 Heavy Gauss riles or 2 Arrow IV systems? how, how is that even blaanced? a battlemech with one or 2 improvements can still have more free weight and space then a clan omni mech will ever have, or do i have to post the omni mech page again?

about the PPC

firstly both I.S and CERPPC share the same range's
seconly both do 15 heat
thirdly CERPPC does 15 damage I.S 10
fourth Capcitor.... +5 Damage +5 heat to any I.S PPC, this brings the Light PPC to be the new stnadard PPC with same damage heat range and les weight and space.

another comparrison, there is a greater volume of I.S equpiment and weapons to Clan equipment and weapons. makeing clantech equal to I.S just wont work...

Edited by Kodiak Jorgensson, 14 December 2011 - 10:36 AM.

[Kudzu]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 14 December 2011 - 08:07 AM, said:

CERPPC = no min range, 15 damage, only 10 heat, and the range bracket of a gauss rifle
packed into a weapon that is only 6 tons and 2 crits

Try 15 damage and 15 heat.

Oh, and as far as BV goes:
PPC-- 176
IS ERPPC- 229 (Same range bracket as clan ERPPC, does 5 less damage weighs 1 more ton and takes up 1 more crit slot)
Clan ERPPC-- 412

Edited by Kudzu, 14 December 2011 - 11:19 AM.

[dm5k]

Totally off topic... I've been playing Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries recently and I really like all the house on house action and hunting down pirates (I haven't gotten to the Clan arrival part yet). As much as I love the clans I wish the devs would have given us more time adding the clans. From what I understand we will have a matter of months? I hope this game won't boil down to a constant house/mercenarie vs clan :X I hate to admit it but I can now understand why all the die-hard Inner Sphere players don't want the Clans added..

Edited by dm5k, 14 December 2011 - 11:13 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

dm5k, on 14 December 2011 - 11:13 AM, said:

Totally off topic... I've been playing Mechwarrior 2: Mercenaries recently and I really like all the house on house action and hunting down pirates (I haven't gotten to the Clan arrival part yet). As much as I love the clans I wish the devs would have given us more time adding the clans. From what I understand we will have a matter of months? I hope this game won't boil down to a constant house/mercenarie vs clan :X I hate to admit it but I can now understand why all the die-hard Inner Sphere players don't want the Clans added..

Trust me, "some months" can become an eternity. It's plenty of time.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 14 December 2011 - 09:57 AM, said:

well first things first. i keep saying it but you dont seem to listen or just disregard omni mech rules but...

clan use omni mechs mostly

omni mechs tend to be limited in free weight and space.

omnimechs arent very customizable due to FIXED hardware.

and you think its balanced that I.S get the smaller and lighter weapons(LPPC/Lgauss...) to cope with there spacious and fairly weight free battlemechs that can appanretly carry 2 Heavy Gauss riles or 2 Arrow IV systems? how, how is that even blaanced? a battlemech with one or 2 improvements can still have more free weight and space then a clan omni mech will ever have, or do i have to post the omni mech page again?

about the PPC

firstly both I.S and CERPPC share the same range's
seconly both do 15 heat
thirdly CERPPC does 15 damage I.S 10
fourth Capcitor.... +5 Damage +5 heat to any I.S PPC, this brings the Light PPC to be the new stnadard PPC with same damage heat range and les weight and space.

another comparrison, there is a greater volume of I.S equpiment and weapons to Clan equipment and weapons. makeing clantech equal to I.S just wont work...

but see you're doing two things:
one poking holes into the customization system itself

consider: If one can make an I.S. battlemech from scratch, is it not possible to make a clan
secondline battlemech with all the toys given to the clans?

second; you're ignoring stock/variant rules for IS
Battlemechs are harder to customize than omnimechs yes? well again, logically if you are
limiting which omnimechs one can choose, you are also limiting which battlemechs one can
take and applying customization restrictions on those designs because they are battlemechs.


you can't enforce canon on one side (clans) then compare it to non-canon hypothetical enemies (your PPC analogy)
outside of the Fafnir, show me a stock mech or a variant of a stock mech that packs 2 HGR?

one more thing i noticed, you're mentioning higher-end lvl 2 tech for the IS;
stuff that wasn't available until very recently in the time line, Also the vast majority
of these parts were not uniformly available to all factions all the time; clantech is
available to all clans all the time

my conclusion is this: for what they are, the clans are unbalanced as is. None of their items
have any real deficit built in. If you want to use the omnimech 'restriction' rule then you must also
remember to restrict IS players to available variants, parts, and mechs as well. Now when given
the choice between the two tech bases, especially in a video game; which would you rather take?
vast majority want the good guns, and everyone is clamoring to 'follow canon to the letter' so that
means in 3050 the good guns are the clans. Their power-to-weight ratio tops most anything the
IS can bring to bear.

apologies for the error kudzu; the CERPPC = 15 heat, but when all clan mechs have DHS that
are 2 crits apiece, its not really a problem - case in point Warhawk Prime - can fire all ERPPCs
at once slaved to a targeting computer and only overheat by 5...

[Kudzu]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 14 December 2011 - 11:16 AM, said:

apologies for the error kudzu; the CERPPC = 15 heat, but when all clan mechs have DHS that
are 2 crits apiece, its not really a problem - case in point Warhawk Prime - can fire all ERPPCs
at once slaved to a targeting computer and only overheat by 5...

False, it can fire three of the four and overheat by 5.

The typical firing rotation for a Warhawk Prime is 3 PPC's, 2PPC's + LRM 10, 3 PPC's. And let's not forget that with a typical 3/4 clan pilot it clocks in at 4408 BV. That's enough for at least 2 IS assaults, 3 heavies, or a lance of mediums.

Edited by Kudzu, 14 December 2011 - 11:35 AM.

[CaveMan]

That's still a goatload of firepower.

Clans are meant to be played at a numerical disadvantage and with their honor rules. Anything else is cheating, just as much as letting IS players ignore heat would be cheating.

If you're not willing to do what's necessary to enforce that, you have to blunt Clan gear somehow. There's no way around it.

I just don't want that nerf to prevent me from being able to load up a Timberwolf Prime and have to have some bastardized 'Mech with 2 ERLL and 2 LRM-10.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Randall <bleepin> Bills - line developer for Catalyst and one of the top CBT people
(i added emphasis)


MWO: Is there any part of MechWarrior you’d love to just take straight out of canon?

RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.

Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.

in the words of clanners: well bargained and done

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 14 December 2011 - 12:11 PM.

[Kudzu]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 14 December 2011 - 12:10 PM, said:

Randall <bleepin> Bills - line developer for Catalyst and one of the top CBT people
(i added emphasis)


MWO: Is there any part of MechWarrior you’d love to just take straight out of canon?

RB: I’ve said many times over the years that if I’d been there the game mechanics of the Clan weaponry would be very different. It’s not just how powerful those weapons are, but that it seemed from the get go to violate the story aesthetics as presented.

Here were these great, in-your-face warriors and yet they had weapons that allowed a player, in game to simply walk backwards and fire at crazy distances to down your enemy. When we introduced the Clan Heavy Lasers years ago those were more along the lines of what I thought the Clans should’ve had all along…really dangerous and powerful weapons, but shortish range, where the Clanner would be in his element, able to take down 3 and 4 enemy BattleMechs in a whirling dervish of expert maneuvering and markmanship.

in the words of clanners: well bargained and done

And if he was apart of the original crew who developed the clans I would care about his opinion on the matter.

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Kudzu, on 14 December 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

And if he was apart of the original crew who developed the clans I would care about his opinion on the matter.

ok so, you'll only follow the laws of your respective government if it was the original writers of said laws?
You won't play CBT cause those who are publishing it now are not the original writers?
he's been supporting and keeping Btech alive for 15 out of its 25 years of existence, and currently he is
the law on CBT as Line Editor and Developer - that's not good enough for you?

Edited by Aaron DeChavilier, 14 December 2011 - 01:41 PM.

[Kudzu]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 14 December 2011 - 01:40 PM, said:

ok so, you'll only follow the laws of your respective government if it was the original writers of said laws?
You won't play CBT cause those who are publishing it now are not the original writers?
he's been supporting and keeping Btech alive for 15 out of its 25 years of existence, and currently he is
the law on CBT as Line Editor and Developer - that's not good enough for you?

I'll take his word on the things he helped create-- but anything before that his opinion is as much fanboy wishing as the rest of us.

[Alex Wolfe]

Kudzu, on 14 December 2011 - 01:29 PM, said:

And if he was apart of the original crew who developed the clans I would care about his opinion on the matter.

Kudzu, on 14 December 2011 - 01:58 PM, said:

I'll take his word on the things he helped create-- but anything before that his opinion is as much fanboy wishing as the rest of us.

You make it sound like the original rules were created by benevolent, omniscient gods and it's not to mortal men to undermine Their work.

Lack of change for the sake of lack of change, "if it's newer than two decades old, I don't want it". Knock yourself out, like what you like and stuff, but there doesn't seem to be any actual reason or basis for discussion there but nostalgia-reinfocred stubbornness. The guy Aaron quoted has had the keys to the house for fifteen years, been doing it for a living, it seems reasonable that his musings warrant a thought besides your "bah! Humbug" directed at anything past a certain date, the only fault of which may be "you weren't there". Of course, it's your prerogative all the same.

Being "the guy who made it" doesn't automatically validate all the past and future decisions, case in point: George Lucas.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 14 December 2011 - 03:03 PM.