181 replies to this topic

[Habokku]

Salutations and greetings to all my fellow Battletech & Mechwarrior enthusiasts!

<S> Let me start by saying thank you for taking the time to click on this little article and (hopefully) read over this with an open mind, and an eye on what is trying to be accomplished by writing it: Specifically, sharing a thought process on how to (again, hopefully) balance out clan tech in a logical and efficient way so that it retains the distinct 'clan' feel and elegance, while at the same time not being so vastly superior as to be sorcery by comparrison to the Inner Sphere weaponry.

Having said that, I will freely admit I an an Inner Sphere pilot, and have been since my earliest days in Battletech and Mechwarrior. I just prefer the I.S. designs, specifically the Star League era 'mechs. My preferred ride is the Highlander, and it always will be. Now that I've gotten that little introduction out of the way, allow me to expound on my theory.
(Please also know this is purely an idea based on a logical train of thought. I am not decrying the Clans or saying they should not be a part of the Universe. I personally love the concept of them and have had many many fun engagements with Clans in the past through the Mechwarrior games and leagues such as BTU and NBT.)

Now, let me start by saying: I have no problem with Omnimechs. I personally don't want to drive an Omnimech (as I said, my ride of choice is and always will be the Highlander) but that said I know people have their favorites and I want them to be able to pilot said favorite if it is availiable.

Secondly, Tech. The real issue with the clans, in my eyes, is the tech and more precisely the weaponry.
In almost every way, the clan's weaponry is better than any I.S. Tech(Weapons) by orders of magnitude.

How do we level the playing field as it were, without swinging the nerf bat so hard that the Clans lose the feel, the elegance that they have?

I've hit upon an idea while discussing this topic with my best friend, and the game master of the Mechwarrior Table Top/Pen & Paper game I am presently playing in.

Concept: Why not make clan tech (Weaponry specifically) Identical to star league era weaponry? Such that they maintained the weaponry over the centuries rather than having it gradually degrade as it did in the Inner Sphere due to the Succession Wars? Allow me to elaborate. Instead of having a Clan Extended Range Large Laser, why not make it the Inner Sphere version that is reproduced after the Helm Memory Core begins the technical revolution/renesance a few years prior to the Clans invading? Let the Clan LBx and Ultra autocannons be the same as the recently reintroduced Inner Sphere LBx and Ultra autocannons popping back up for the same reasons. Basically make Clan Tech the same as Star League era tech. They never lost the capacity to make and maintain these weapons. The Inner Sphere doesn't have ER Medium or Small lasers, they barely have ER Large lasers, or ER PPC's, or Gauss Rifles. The clans do have them, in great number and supply. Doing this would (in my rather I.S. slanted view, granted) still allow the clans to be extremely powerful from a gameplay perspective, compared to the rank and file units that wouldn't have access to vast sores of Star League era tech. Rather they would be scraping at the few new reproductions that are just starting to trickle back in to the military/fighting forces of the I.S. I think that the 'Clan Weaponry' in this incarnation, be it a Laser (In any incarnation), ER PPC, Gauss, or LBx/Ultra Autocannon should weigh the same as the Star League era version of these weapons, and have the same stats as them as well. A Clan ER PPC should do the same damage as a Star League ER PPC, have the same weight, and heat. The same goes for a Clan Gauss Rifle, or ER Large Laser, etc etc etc.

Now, to expound and expand on this, I would like to touch on a topic that I do expect some to disagree with (and it's fine if you do, just please hear me out with an open mind.)

Missiles. Let me start by saying I think Streak SRM's are fine, so long as they weigh the same as a standard, non-streak SRM launcher or even slightly more, since they possess additional hardware for more accurate missile tracking (I lean more towards having the weight be the same, personally, but that's just my opinion). Streak SRM 2/4/6? Bring it on. The Inner Sphere is starting to produce Streak SRM packs in at least 2 missle and possibly 4 missile launcher variants by 3049. I say leave SRM/Streak SRM's alone for the most part.
The big issue with missiles is the Clan LRM launchers. The fact that they are so very very light by comparrison to Inner Sphere LRM launchers is the biggest point of contetion in my eyes. I say make them the same weight an their Inner Sphere counterparts, but to maintain the edge that the clans are supposed to have, all Clan LRM launchers come equipped by default with a built in Artemis IV fire control system at no weight cost (Still takes an extra crit spot though, as I can see shaving a little weight here or there, but the mass stays the same) and all Clan LRM ammo is considered to be Artemis IV compatible by default.

I realize that by evening out the weight (I.E. Making Clan weapons heavier) would change up the way many Clan 'mechs are armed. For example, the Madcat/Timberwolf prime's weapons loadout would need to be revised somewhat, but it wouldn't be a terribly drastic overhaul. The biggest thing would be a lower total count of LRM's. Perhaps dropping the LRM 20 racks to LRM 10/LRM15 racks. You'd still have a pair of ER Larges, a Pair of ER Mediums, possibly retain the Medium Pulse Laser, and the Machine guns, and a pair of decent sized LRM racks. Not LRM 20's, granted, but at the very least LRM 10's with Artemis IV.

Overhauling the other clan Omnimechs primary and alternate weapons configurations wouldn't be terribly difficult, just tweak the weapons weights, and make small adjustments as needed to even out the weight. For instance, the Thor/Summoner Prime. The only change would be to likey downgrade the LRM launcher slightly to make up for the heavier weight of the launcher (Like the Madcat/Timberwolf just mentioned).

As for the other equipment, leave Clan Double Heatsinks the way they are, let their CASE take up no weight, etc, I don't have a problem with the non weapons systems for the most part (I'll make a slight exception for the targeting computer... but that's a personal quibble and I'll not mention it past that). I say leave the non weapon portion of the tech alone, as it's appropriately superior without being outlandish. (In my opinion). Also, leave the clans having superior breeding and being better pilots on average than their I.S. Breatheren. I think that's a neat element to their story and part of their appeal.

In closing, as many who are acquianted with the universe to a fair degree know, prior to the Helm memory core being discovered by the Gray Death Legion, and subsequently sharing it with the rest of the I.S., the standard weaponry in use was not horrible, but was a far cry from it's Star League era roots due to the savagary of the Succession Wars. Thus having the clans show up with full on Star League era weaponry mounted on every chassis with superior heat dissipation and survivability (due to CASE) would still be downright terrifying to an I.S. Pilot, but once the technology on the part of the I.S. catches up a little, the playing field evens out a bit, and it makes more sense from a balance perspective in my eyes. Then it really does boil down to who has the superior tactics, and piloting ability to decides the winner.

These are my thoughts, and I once again thank you for taking the time to read them if you've gotten to this point. Once again: This is not a 'Bash the Clans' or 'Nerf the Clanners' thread. Merely a fan looking at an issue within the BattleTech Universe and offering a thought on said issue, using logic and a little common sense to try and bring some clarity to the quandry.

I look forwards to the discussions my thoughts here might generate! Thank you all for your time and I'll be checking in to read over the other thoughts and ideas that might be gleaned from the discussion that follows.

<S> Take care for now.

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Trogusaur]

I believe this to be a very solid proposal. I don't fully understand the common hatred for Clan tech myself, but a gradual evening out of this tech over time seems like the best solution to prevent the Clans from being forever superior. However, I will have to disagree on the missle terms. Being a Mad Cat fan myself, my weapon of choice is the LRM. Limiting the firepower on its semi-primary weapon doesn't seem like a good idea in my mind, even if only a slight downgrade. In fact, the missles shouldn't even need a change according to your idea, given that the weight difference between ballistic weapons is even greater than that of missles on most occasions. Otherwise, fantastic!

Just my two C-bills.

[Habokku]

Lord Trogus, on 12 December 2011 - 03:55 AM, said:

I believe this to be a very solid proposal. I don't fully understand the common hatred for Clan tech myself, but a gradual evening out of this tech over time seems like the best solution to prevent the Clans from being forever superior. However, I will have to disagree on the missle terms. Being a Mad Cat fan myself, my weapon of choice is the LRM. Limiting the firepower on its semi-primary weapon doesn't seem like a good idea in my mind, even if only a slight downgrade. In fact, the missles shouldn't even need a change according to your idea, given that the weight difference between ballistic weapons is even greater than that of missles on most occasions. Otherwise, fantastic!

Just my two C-bills.

I can see your stance, and do agree to an extent.. but you made my point rather succinctly with what you said in your (very well written may I say!) response. The LRM's are the semi-primary weapon of the design.

That's part of the reason why clan 'mechs are so effective as a stand alone single chassis vs. their I.S. counterparts. They all have several 'semi-primary' weapon systems on them. Few I.S. 'mechs can claim that. They specialize and focus on one particular element of their arsenal and have secondary weapons as support. An excellent example of this is the Trebuchet. Two LRM 15's, and a couple (or trio depending on variant) of medium lasers. Even the heavier versions of LRM platforms such as the venerable Archer can only claim a bevvy of four medium lasers to back up it's paired LRM 20's and it's a scant five tons lighter than the Timberwolf/Madcat.

The Timberwolf/Madcat has paired ER Large lasers. That is very respectable firepower, and it's backed up by a pair of ER Medium lasers, and a Medium Pulse Laser, plus a pair of Machine guns. This is a withering ammount of firepower for a heavy 'mech, compared to most any heavy I.S. 'mech available, and the kicker is it can fire the vast majority of this firepower and not overheat terribly badly thanks to the phenominal heat dissipation that the clan double heatsink provides. Now you mate this withering firepower to not one, but two LRM 20 launchers and even I.S. Assaults start to shake in their proverbial boots, and they should! Only a scant handfull of only the most powerful I.S. assault 'mechs could even hope to match this kind of firepower.

Clan tech Should make I.S. pilots poop their collective pants! That's part of what makes the clans what they are, the boogie man, the great adversary, powerful and frightening, but not insurmountable.

I'm not talking about a drastic reduction in effectiveness on the Clan Omnimechs part, far from it! I'm merely suggesting leveling the playing field where it counts, and trying to at least show you can have a Madcat that is still terrifying to behold that has paired LRM 10's or LRM 15's that are more accurate (with the inclusion of built-in Artemis IV), versus paired LRM 20's. Sure you may have to sacrifice the medium pulse laser, or drop a machine gun as well to make up the weight difference, but the overall spirit and weapons payload will remain the same, and in the grand scheme it makes the fight not quite so one sided once the I.S. Tech catches up.

Well thought out point, and thank you kindly for making it! I look forwards to seeing what else you, and others might have to add to the topic.

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Diablo48]

No. The whole point of the Clans is that they are what happened when the SLDF went off on its own for 300 years without loosing Star League tech. Everything they have is supposed to be centuries ahead of anything in the IS, and that is to be expected after having centuries to improve on the pinnacle of Star League R&D.

Balance can be achieved much more easily by making it possible for IS pilots to buy Clan tech for a premium. This works very well with my other idea of forcing all players to start in the IS and make them take the time and effort to get taken as bondsmen where they will have to work to join the ranks of their new Clan. This will mean that players will have to either invest more effort into joining a Clan to get easy access to the better tech or invest effort into saving up money to buy Clan salvage.

[Alex Wolfe]

Diablo48, on 12 December 2011 - 04:24 AM, said:

No. The whole point of the Clans is that they are what happened when the SLDF went off on its own for 300 years without loosing Star League tech. Everything they have is supposed to be centuries ahead of anything in the IS, and that is to be expected after having centuries to improve on the pinnacle of Star League R&D.

Balance can be achieved much more easily by making it possible for IS pilots to buy Clan tech for a premium. This works very well with my other idea of forcing all players to start in the IS and make them take the time and effort to get taken as bondsmen where they will have to work to join the ranks of their new Clan. This will mean that players will have to either invest more effort into joining a Clan to get easy access to the better tech or invest effort into saving up money to buy Clan salvage.

I disagree. The whole point of the Clans is a bid to sell a new line and miniatures by introducing a whole new faction that is superior in every way to the old ones, without drawbacks. Their story and feel are nice, but the reason why their armaments are so superior aren't "so that they can be the boogeyman". No one is afraid of miniatures on the table in the "boogeyman" way. The point is to tempt people who wouldn't be swayed merely by the concept of "honor" with shinies and the perspective of easy wins. The story (that a mere handful of people living on isolated chunks of rocks outside known space can make such giant advancements compared to states who have enormous wealth and populace, and have an economy fully focused on warfare) is just a somewhat half-hearted justification for "they are better, buy them or be defeated by smug kids who do".

Enter power creep. Suddenly, a Clan light mech (or IS mech outfitted with Clan tech, something the games shouldn't have done in the first place - it's not alleviating the problem, it's giving up to the power creep itself) has the firepower belonging on a heavier medium mech, with bigger range. Medium hits like a heavy, heavy hits like an Assault, and Assault mechs hit like the hypothetical God-mech from the 4th dimension. Everything shoots earlier, kills faster, old stuff lays by the wayside. Usually, such a state is a disaster for a game, but not for tabletop gaming (if the developers are cynical enough): the NEW stuff is supposed to obsolete the old stuff in this scheme. Feel compelled to buy more supplements and minis, so that the company doesn't fall out of business. You don't want to be steamrolled by the Clans, do you? Pay to win! And it worked. By Kerensky, did it work - ask the people who were around at that time.

What you're suggesting - "buying superior Clan tech for a premium" just gives the IS pilots a handicap again if it's C-bills, and is exactly Pay to Win if gear acquisition can be hastened with real money (like in TF2 for example). MWO has no need (and hopefully, no intent) for a similar scheme as happened with the TT. Clan tech should be re-balanced now that frantic buying isn't a factor. It shouldn't be made as a total upgrade and replacement to ALL the Inner Sphere tech, like it was in computer games so far, making 80% of the mechlab as sub-par junk is a disgrace when it comes to balance (only a few weapons mattered in games so far, and even they were nearly exclusively Clan weapons), and it shouldn't be allowed to change the game's dynamics (allowing for kills in 2 alpha strikes instead of 3 is a huge game changer).

This is a reboot, "not your father's mechwarrior", I believe it can afford to leave the stigma of "Clan tech or bust" behind, and keep people playing factions they like rather than feel pressured to switch for the tactical advantage. Give Clan tech real drawbacks, don't make it magic like until now (more damage, more range, LESS WEIGHT, wait it runs hotter oh double heat sinks nvm. How? A wizard Clan technician did it!) Keep it as an alternative to IS gear, not the only choice, or in fact make it non-compatibe with IS gear like it's supposed to and keep them separate (unless you can score a Clan chassis, but good luck finding techs and parts to repair it during the first years of the invasion). Let people play the Clans because they like the faction, not because they want steamroll gear.

And don't make people pay real money for purposefully unbalanced Clan gear like the TT devs did.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 12 December 2011 - 05:04 AM.

[Kodiak Jorgensson]

ok i didnt make it through the whole post and i dont agree with what i read so far. i gave up when i saw "make it equal to I.S tech", but you said "not to to swing the nerf bat hard at clans", and what you propose is more like swinging the the nerfhammer twice as hard.

the whole idea of clan tech is that they IMPROVED it form SL sandards. also econmy will be playing part in MWO and will effect clan tech not tomentnion that clan tech mainly comes from clan space which is sevral months away from the bored of I.S space so resupply ing going to be an issue for them.

if you want to play something with equal technolgoy i suggest MWLL i.s and clan are the same there. and that kinda of annoys me, theres no dynamic.

imo increasing weight and critical slots for clan weapons is a bit no no. it would destroy most of there configurations. and after MW4 i would hate to see that happen. its not like clan tech is stupidly op. its only a 5% increase over I.S standards (some maybe more)

before i conclude, i am a CBT fan i prfer clans but i will take a Merc unit (with I.S tech) i do not like House's however. if the game loses the dynamic and clan are given equal weapons tats i wil not be playing for long.

conclusion, the dynamic is needed to make clanners feared, putting them on equal fotting with I.S imo will destroy the dynamic and the feel, instead of asking for drastic nerfing ask for ways to counter it example certain clans dislike certain military assets CGB have a lack of aerotech fighters. certain clans dont like using artiley strikes. clans also lack numbers meaning theres going to be at least 3 on 1 against clans. (possibly more). so again imo dont ask for an easy challengeless game ask for ways to coutner it. make the game more dynamic without destroying the enemy stats.

[Habokku]

Diablo48, on 12 December 2011 - 04:24 AM, said:

No. The whole point of the Clans is that they are what happened when the SLDF went off on its own for 300 years without loosing Star League tech. Everything they have is supposed to be centuries ahead of anything in the IS, and that is to be expected after having centuries to improve on the pinnacle of Star League R&D.

I disagree, respectfully. As Alex Wolfe said in the above post, where were their research facilities? Where were their raw materials to design lighter components that held the same structural integrity? They left the I.S. on a 'flotilla' of jumpships and dropships. Sure they had 300 years, granted, but a large portion of that was spent in space looking for habitable planets, probably used to terraform said planets at least to some degree to allow for life to exist without the use of atmospheric contained structures, (Which I assume also existed) building the required living areas and 'towns' plus the agricultural areas as well.. It's an (understandably) monumental task to colonize one planet, let alone all of the clan home worlds that were colonized. I'm just thinking critically about it is all, not saying they couldn't have had the time, energy, or know-how to make such improvements on the existing technology, but when I think about what else was going on, it tends to make me think that they perhaps spent their time developing new (omni)'mechs, etc. Just my thoughts on that.

Diablo48, on 12 December 2011 - 04:24 AM, said:

Balance can be achieved much more easily by making it possible for IS pilots to buy Clan tech for a premium. This works very well with my other idea of forcing all players to start in the IS and make them take the time and effort to get taken as bondsmen where they will have to work to join the ranks of their new Clan. This will mean that players will have to either invest more effort into joining a Clan to get easy access to the better tech or invest effort into saving up money to buy Clan salvage.

I disagree with this. Clan tech, especially designed to mount in an omnimech pod system, should not function in an Inner Sphere 'mech at all. I don't think Clan & I.S. tech or weaponry should intermix (and that is just my opinion I will note! ). Also, as Alex said, I don't want those with the bigger wallets spending real money to garner superior weapons as soon as they're available. That's delving a little too closely to pay to win territory in my view. As for joining clans by becoming a bondsman, not a bad idea, but I can see it being open for abuse as well,.. I'd rather just have people create a new character as a Clansman, or have the option to transfer one existing character to the Clan side, but lose all experience on that character (Basically restarting the character). That's assuming we as players can even play as Clansmen. That way if you want to go the bondsman route, you can just RP it, or you can just play like you were a Clanner all along.

My thoughts, thanks for your input Diablo!

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Alex Wolfe]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

if you want to play something with equal technolgoy i suggest MWLL i.s and clan are the same there. and that kinda of annoys me, theres no dynamic.

Obsoleting the whole inventory of one faction isn't "dynamic", it's "gamebreaking power creep".

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

imo increasing weight and critical slots for clan weapons is a bit no no. it would destroy most of there configurations. and after MW4 i would hate to see that happen. its not like clan tech is stupidly op. its only a 5% increase over I.S standards (some maybe more)

Every Clan mech has more firepower than an IS mech 15-20 tons heavier, longer range AND higher speed, how is it not "game breaking" in a competitive environment? What justification is there for it besides "they were written that way in CBT (and it allowed to sell a metric bucketton of books and minis back then)"?

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

conclusion, the dynamic is needed to make clanners feared, putting them on equal fotting with I.S imo will destroy the dynamic and the feel, instead of asking for drastic nerfing ask for ways to counter it example certain clans dislike certain military assets CGB have a lack of aerotech fighters.

Clanners won't be "feared" in a game, everyone will just drool at their tech and look for ways to get their hands on it. If MWO keeps stats similar to MW3 or 4, or either MechCommander, and repeats the mistake of allowing easy access to it and mixing with IS tech, IS gear will be "playing with handicap" while Clan gear will become the true metagame choice - exactly like it happened in MW3 and 4. That's the extent of players' sentiments towards the Clans. There is no "fear", only "greed". Especially gamebreaking if making a Clanner pilot yourself would be a few clicks away. Why stick with B-tier when S is readily available? How many people will do it?

Giving IS Clan tech isn't the solution, first of all it just makes everyone "even" but everyone also dies faster, and second - it's breaking the canon after all. Between breaking the canon by giving some drawbacks to the Clan tech, and breaking the canon by handing it out like candy, I'd take the first. At least it keeps the game fairly stable.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 12 December 2011 - 05:37 AM.

[Habokku]

Alex Wolfe, on 12 December 2011 - 04:40 AM, said:

I disagree. The whole point of the Clans is a bid to sell a new line and miniatures by introducing a whole new faction that is superior in every way to the old ones, without drawbacks. Their story and feel are nice, but the reason why their armaments are so superior aren't "so that they can be the boogeyman". No one is afraid of miniatures on the table in the "boogeyman" way. The point is to tempt people who wouldn't be swayed merely by the concept of "honor" with shinies and the perspective of easy wins. The story (that a mere handful of people living on isolated chunks of rocks outside known space can make such giant advancements compared to states who have enormous wealth and populace, and have an economy fully focused on warfare) is just a somewhat half-hearted justification for "they are better, buy them or be defeated by smug kids who do".

Enter power creep. Suddenly, a Clan light mech (or IS mech outfitted with Clan tech, something the games shouldn't have done in the first place - it's not alleviating the problem, it's giving up to the power creep itself) has the firepower belonging on a heavier medium mech, with bigger range. Medium hits like a heavy, heavy hits like an Assault, and Assault mechs hit like the hypothetical God-mech from the 4th dimension. Everything shoots earlier, kills faster, old stuff lays by the wayside. Usually, such a state is a disaster for a game, but not for tabletop gaming (if the developers are cynical enough): the NEW stuff is supposed to obsolete the old stuff in this scheme. Feel compelled to buy more supplements and minis, so that the company doesn't fall out of business. You don't want to be steamrolled by the Clans, do you? Pay to win! And it worked. By Kerensky, did it work - ask the people who were around at that time.

What you're suggesting - "buying superior Clan tech for a premium" just gives the IS pilots a handicap again if it's C-bills, and is exactly Pay to Win if gear acquisition can be hastened with real money (like in TF2 for example). MWO has no need (and hopefully, no intent) for a similar scheme as happened with the TT. Clan tech should be re-balanced now that frantic buying isn't a factor. It shouldn't be made as a total upgrade and replacement to ALL the Inner Sphere tech, like it was in computer games so far, making 80% of the mechlab as sub-par junk is a disgrace when it comes to balance (only a few weapons mattered in games so far, and even they were nearly exclusively Clan weapons), and it shouldn't be allowed to change the game's dynamics (allowing for kills in 2 alpha strikes instead of 3 is a huge game changer).

This is a reboot, "not your father's mechwarrior", I believe it can afford to leave the stigma of "Clan tech or bust" behind, and keep people playing factions they like rather than feel pressured to switch for the tactical advantage. Give Clan tech real drawbacks, don't make it magic like until now (more damage, more range, LESS WEIGHT, wait it runs hotter oh double heat sinks nvm. How? A wizard Clan technician did it!) Keep it as an alternative to IS gear, not the only choice, or in fact make it non-compatibe with IS gear like it's supposed to and keep them separate (unless you can score a Clan chassis, but good luck finding techs and parts to repair it during the first years of the invasion). Let people play the Clans because they like the faction, not because they want steamroll gear.

And don't make people pay real money for purposefully unbalanced Clan gear like the TT devs did.

I agree with most all of this, Alex. Like them or hate them, the Clans were a means to sell more product and try to earn profit. It was a rather well thought out idea, and I will clarify once more I LOVE the concept of the Clans, the unknown threat, both interesting and terrifying (from a canon/story perspective). I think the execution is where the ball got fumbled. (Not dropped, just juggled a little bit and shook up).

As Alex said, Clan weapons (Just weapons, not speaking to 'mechs, or tech, or lore or anything else) are just far far superior on an order of magnitude that just seems beyond belief. (In my opinion!). As Alex said, The weapons are all lighter, many with longer ranges, and with increased damage as well. The tradeoff is higher heat, but the double heat-sink renders that drawback (and I do freely admit it is a drawback) significantly less of an issue.

I'm proposing keeping the ranges the same, and the damage the same too. I'd like to see the weight of the weapons brought in line with their Inner Sphere counterparts. Specifically the LRM's and Autocannons/Gauss Rifles. I've tried to mitigate the proposed weight increase of Clan LRM with the inclusion of Artemis IV at basically no cost (Outside of space, as I said in my original post) which will make the missiles far more accurate across the board. It's the quality vs. quantity argument. If you fire 40 LRM's and only 20 hit, versus firing 20 LRM's and 17/18 hit, you're losing a few points of damage, sure, but you're being far far more efficient with your ammunition. The clans are, if nothing else, honorable and efficient fighters, only bidding the lowest amount of equipment needed to accomplish their mission or goal. This idea of doing more with less as far as LRM's go was born from that mindset, and observation on Clan culture through my readings of Battletech lore and general knowledge of how Clans operate.

That's my opinion anyway. As I said I'm not trying to swing a nerf bat, or hammer, or anything else here. I'm just offering ideas on how to keep the Clans suitably scary, while at the same time narrowing the gulf that exists between the two tech levels (Post invasion, obviously)

<S> Thanks!

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Diablo48]

These "arguments" are just too stupid/ignorant for me to respond to in detail. I am seeing talk of power creep and making more sales when that is very clearly not the case because BT never requires players to buy anything beyond the core rulebook to play. I also saw comments about the exodus which took roughly two years, carried of millions of highly educated people on thousands of ships, and brought everything it needed with it up to and including the facilities to build small WarShips. I also saw comments about paying real money for better gear which is not something I ever suggested and is something the devs have explicitly said will not be the case, so I am not going to be responding here any more.

[Alex Wolfe]

Diablo48, on 12 December 2011 - 05:43 AM, said:

These "arguments" are just too stupid/ignorant for me to respond to in detail. I am seeing talk of power creep and making more sales when that is very clearly not the case because BT never requires players to buy anything beyond the core rulebook to play. I also saw comments about the exodus which took roughly two years, carried of millions of highly educated people on thousands of ships, and brought everything it needed with it up to and including the facilities to build small WarShips. I also saw comments about paying real money for better gear which is not something I ever suggested and is something the devs have explicitly said will not be the case, so I am not going to be responding here any more.

Heh. FASA was a company, they had their product lines, they wanted to continue them by making new supplements. It's only natural, I'm not condemning them for it. They weren't a charity and they weren't spreading the enlightened word about Battletech so that the people have some fun stuff to talk about. They didn't write Clans for fun and printed their rules, and casted minis for free.

If you disagree or have a better idea, feel free to dismantle my arguments, rather than just saying "this is stupid and I won't participate". Maybe I'm missing some vital detail, but otherwise I'm pretty sure of them.

Clans are a fun concept, but releasing a new faction, entirely superior to the existing ones, in a collectible hobby like tabletop gaming is either a serious blunder during rule-testing, or (more likely, since it was never rebalanced to be more in line) an attempt to sell, and my whole point is that such an act, not at all unheard of, is kind of a low blow - and the whole Battletech universe is still reeling from it. "Only the rulebook necessary"? If your opponent lets you steamroll him by using matchboxes and Lego as count-as Mad Cats, be my guest, but that's not what all the cool new Clanner kids were sweeping tables with back in the day. Like Habokku said above, the idea is nice, but the execution quite messed up. And yes, it IS power creep - especially in later games. I doubt anyone could find arguments to the contrary.

As to the in-universe explanation behind the "superiority"... "Kerensky's son took 800 of his best warriors and 600 civilian families away to a planet known as Strana Mechty ("land of dreams" in Russian) where he forged a new order" - Clan history, from wiki. The rest of the Star League refugees presumably self-destructed in the Pentagon civil war. Here's your "millions", the Clan party didn't really start until then. Let's say that every family is 2+2, so that's barely over 3000 people (guess how many brilliant scientists were there), fractured into 20 separate entities so that's not even 200 per Clan (since "Clan Nova Cat created the ER technology", and Clans fight for tech, so that means they all work separately), living in a dump so barren that, even with whole planets to their name, they cannot afford war. Tell me now how does a ragtag group like that outsmart a galaxy's worth of wealth with its hundreds of billions of souls, besides "it's 80's fiction, it doesn't have to make sense, buy them".

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 12 December 2011 - 06:07 AM.

[EmyLightsaber]

Perhaps, to add to this discussion, At the beginning, only the Devs and Moderators would have access to Clan Tech. In this fashion, when PGI were to do the obligatory "Shoot the Dev Team" style drop, those that managed to destroy the Dev/ Mod, those people would get some Clan Salvage.

[Alex Wolfe]

EmyLightsaber, on 12 December 2011 - 06:07 AM, said:

Perhaps, to add to this discussion, At the beginning, only the Devs and Moderators would have access to Clan Tech. In this fashion, when PGI were to do the obligatory "Shoot the Dev Team" style drop, those that managed to destroy the Dev/ Mod, those people would get some Clan Salvage.

That could alleviate the problem at first, but the biggest issue I see is the power creep, i.e. IF the Clan tech is made wholly superior, and if they allow even semi-hard access to it (which is contrary to the canon by the way, it's supposed to be nigh-impossible, and maintenance not feasible for anyone with a budget smaller than a Great House) and for the Inner Sphere to mount it on Inner Sphere mechs... that would mean that pretty soon every "heavy" gun would be regarded as total trash. It always works like that.

The solution you proposed would just make it happen a bit later, but it would happen eventually - there's no closing those floodgates once they're open.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 12 December 2011 - 06:38 AM.

[Habokku]

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

ok i didnt make it through the whole post and i dont agree with what i read so far. i gave up when i saw "make it equal to I.S tech", but you said "not to to swing the nerf bat hard at clans", and what you propose is more like swinging the the nerfhammer twice as hard.

Hiya Kodiak! Thanks for your reply firstly! Secondly, I wasn't trying to say equal with I.S. Tech as it was in 3025, I mean equal to I.S. Tech from the Star League, as in the clans never lost (and actually do improve in some areas, Read: LRM launchers w/ Artemis built in every launcher) the technology of the Star League. But that such a drastic improvement of weaponry in all areas seems a little far fetched from a logical standpoint (I know, I know, logic should go out the window when we're talking about walking tanks! But bear with me. ) especially considering the advancements made in their 'mech arsenal as well. I would think that with as many Omnimechs that were produced, the vast majority of research and development would have gone into developing new mechs, and using their existing weaponry on said new 'mechs. If you've got an ultra autocannon that functions perfectly fine, why mess with it? The old 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it' adage springs to mind for me here.

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

the whole idea of clan tech is that they IMPROVED it form SL sandards. also econmy will be playing part in MWO and will effect clan tech not to mentnion that clan tech mainly comes from clan space which is sevral months away from the bored of I.S space so resupplying going to be an issue for them.

Clan Tech, yes. Tech as far as heatsinks, mechs, equipment, but weapons is where the real issue rests, and why so many people get bent out of shape over the Clans and their introduction I think. Had their tech been Star League era tech, with the odd improvement or tweak here or there, then I think the Clans would have been met with a far different reaction from the people who were a part of the table top game when they were introduced (Speculation, purely.). Yes Economy will be a part of MWO but I'm not speaking strictly to MWO, but more to Battletech as a whole here. I realize I might not have made that very clear in my original post, I apologize for that oversight. As for resupply, we'll find out about all of that when the developers give us that info. As I said I'm fostering this discussion on how to close the gulf between the I.S. and the Clans Logically, while at the same time maintaining the obvious advantages that the Clans had when they invaded, maintaining their mystique and terrifying technological advantage without there being such a significant difference between Clan weaponry and I.S. five to ten years after the Clans arrive.

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

if you want to play something with equal technolgoy i suggest MWLL i.s and clan are the same there. and that kinda of annoys me, theres no dynamic.

I don't want to play MW:LL, though not because I don't have a desire to. Mostly time and real life obligations are keeping me from devoting more of my time to gaming online. That said, it seems (in my view) to be less dynamic when there is such an obvious advantage to one side. Ultimately you have everyone piloting the same 'mech with the same weapons.. Power Creep as Alex put it. If you start out with one side better, but let the other side catch up to the same level at a relatively decent pace, so that both sides have distinct advantages and disadvantages, you'll foster a far far more dynamic experience. Then, it isn't the weapons deciding the matches, it's really the tactics and abilities of the pilots that win the day. That to me sounds way more exciting and challenging that having to worry about how quickly I'm going to be able to get my hands on a clan mech or clan tech, or how much it will cost me (hypothetically).

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

imo increasing weight and critical slots for clan weapons is a bit no no. it would destroy most of there configurations. and after MW4 i would hate to see that happen. its not like clan tech is stupidly op. its only a 5% increase over I.S standards (some maybe more)

It will alter most of their configurations, yes, but it won't destroy them. As I said many of the favorite or classic designs will retain the majority of their core weapons (maybe in a reduced capacity or number, but they will most all still be there). And again I'm not talking about a specific mechwarrior game here, I'm talking Battletech more than anything else. Also, I only suggested increasing the crit slots on the LRM launchers to compensate for the inclusion of Artemis IV (With no added weight either, just making them weigh the same as their I.S. counterparts, with some weigh reduced and made up for by the included fire control system). The weight increases will overall be negiligable also. And I think clan tech is a touch on the 'OP' side as you put it. Maybe not stupidly, but it's not far from that point in my view. Also, where did you get that 5% increase over I.S. Standards? I'd like to see where you got that number from if you don't mind?

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

before i conclude, i am a CBT fan i prfer clans but i will take a Merc unit (with I.S tech) i do not like House's however. if the game loses the dynamic and clan are given equal weapons tats i wil not be playing for long.

I too am a CBT fan through and through. I love the universe and I love the lore, I love everything about Battletech in most all of it's iterations (MechAssault being a rare exception to my love... grrrr...) But as I said please look at it as bringing a more dynamic feel to the game, not removing it. Clans will have Superior weapons (as they always have) when they invade. But as the I.S. continues to rediscover the Lost Tech from the Star League era and production of that tech increases, the gap between clan and I.S. will narrow swiftly. The clans will still have better equipment, such as heat sinks, CASE, ....targeting computers.. *grumble*... and Omnimechs are still just the epitomie of bad-news-bears with their flexability and ability to be changed from one configuration to another in a fraction of the time it would take an I.S. mech. I hope you'll give the idea more thought, and maybe reconsider your position on that end after you've had a chance to mull it over a bit more.

Kodiak Jorgensson, on 12 December 2011 - 05:12 AM, said:

conclusion, the dynamic is needed to make clanners feared, putting them on equal fotting with I.S imo will destroy the dynamic and the feel, instead of asking for drastic nerfing ask for ways to counter it example certain clans dislike certain military assets CGB have a lack of aerotech fighters. certain clans dont like using artiley strikes. clans also lack numbers meaning theres going to be at least 3 on 1 against clans. (possibly more). so again imo dont ask for an easy challengeless game ask for ways to coutner it. make the game more dynamic without destroying the enemy stats.

Me speaks with my Inego Montoya voice: You keep using that word.. I do not think it means what you think it means... Sorry, I couldn't resist In all seriousness, being dynamic means being effective, Clans have the market cornered on that. And with the idea I've proposed they still will be, to a great degree! I'm not speaking of destroying their stats, I'm talking about balance, and allowing for there to be a fun and interesting diversity between Clan and I.S. Tech after the I.S. is able to catch up a little with the production of Star League era tech and incorperating said Star League era tech in to their military. It won't be instant, in fact it'll be a long and slow process. But once that process reaches a good speed, then we'll start to really see some interesting (and fun!) things start to happen (Hypothetically speaking, of course.)

That's all I've got for right now, and I thank you very much for your points! I hope I've managed to clear up my stance a bit and help you understand where I'm coming from.

Looking forwards to seeing what others have to say!

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Habokku]

EmyLightsaber, on 12 December 2011 - 06:07 AM, said:

Perhaps, to add to this discussion, At the beginning, only the Devs and Moderators would have access to Clan Tech. In this fashion, when PGI were to do the obligatory "Shoot the Dev Team" style drop, those that managed to destroy the Dev/ Mod, those people would get some Clan Salvage.

Hey Emy! Thanks for adding your thoughts

Hmm... An interesting idea, and I'm not against it to be sure, but I don't know if I agree with it completely either. I'm of the opinion it should be all or nothing. It's either all player driven or no players (Be they Dev, Mod, or rando-pilot-number-3) should have access to them and they should be A.I. controlled.

Thanks for the reply!

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Habokku]

(Okay, time for me to sleep. I just finished my third 12 hour night shift in a row and am falling asleep sitting up. I'll check back when I wake up this afternoon and see where we're at then. Thank you to everyone who's offered their thoughts and I look forwards to seeing what else is said when I get back later today. Take care guys/gals!)

<S>

-Havoc
A.K.A. Habokku

[Technocide Rex]

The clan storyline and accompanying advantages are now an integral part of the lore of BT/MW, and the attraction to clantech served to draw more players to both sides of the fight - purists to IS, thrill seekers to clan (in general). To blur that distinction is to jeopardize the revitalization that could make this genre again as incredibly popular as it was at the turn of the millenium.

In the past, meeting the desires of various types of gameplayers within a specific title had generally been a function of providing varying game types that meet the needs of the styles and rules of the major groups involved. In the old Zone league play, it was often facilitated by agreed-upon limitations of tech employed by each side as part of league rules, not limitations enforced within the game design itself. For example, clan teams were limited in the total tonnage that could drop against IS opponents in any given league battle. Whether a team used all of that limit was entirely up to them, since employing all assault mechs would most often result in a large mech loss for the less agile force, despite the greater firepower. For mercs using both types, limitations included a mandatory percentage of IS tech to be used, which meant that mercs had to purchase both types, or face a severe limitation on the number of players in any drop. The same held true for weapons availability. While this created the burden of accounting for teams and league administration, it met the BT intent for those interested/devoted to the rules.

For those just interested in hammering the snot out of each other (another large pool of players), the accomodation was there for those who could configure their mechs in any way they wished. While this catered mainly to kids and newbies, it also served as an entry point for those to become accustomed to the various aspects of mech gameplay. Without having the initial burden of learning all the rules commensurate with hardcore aficionados who also devote themselves to the tabletop game, stories, collectables, etc., a percentage of new players would eventually find themselves bored with the pure clantech bash and trash. Thus, converts to the greater depth of BT rules were created.

I believe that clantech should be implemented as is (if and when the devs choose to do so - this is their party - we're just guests), and for those who wish to apply the rules, leagues and/or variations in the gameplay (open/MW/BT) be made available (leagues will pop up anyways). For example, Halo managed to accomodate various styles by providing differing gametypes/rooms (I hated zombies, but the kids loved it and flocked to it in droves).

First off, however, let's do the best we can with the game these generous folks provide us (thanks, guys) and try not to be like the constantly demanding in-laws who never leave the house.

Two cents

[Aaron DeChavilier]

Habokku; I completely agree with your assessment.
It is my almost masochistic belief that the clans can be done right
and you're on the way to doing that. The greatest sin of clantech
was that its perfect in everyway which from a game theory perspective
only rare game items are supposed to do this, not an entire faction
that has been added.

Alex Wolfe <round of applause>
your contentions with the true motive of the clans is nothing short
of genius in this regard! if only more clan players understood this
we could move forward in balancing them so they are challenging
...but fun for all

fun should be the true arbiter - this is a game

[Evgeny Bear]

I just want to spread my opinion =D (wanted or not)

I always play as sole fighter/lone wolf in most MP based games (no matter what),
because I can only depend on me and don't want to blame others for my faults if tactic fails.
And I dont like to play in Clans, because I do not want to be forced to use Teamspeak
as well as certain online times I have to be online.
So I have no problems with overwehlming odds, as far as I can use cover, disguise ambush and terrain.
As Mech-Pilot I rather brawl so when it comes to 1vs5 I would rather have Clan tech on my side,
I might die in the end but I can hopefully take 2 or 3 with me and feel Triumph.
But when everyone crys and we get a nerfed tech it will let me down and Im forced to act as team =(

So just change the odds of facing Clanners like other Threads suggest, while changing the number
of opponents and let the balance untouched and not be altered by emotions.
And please (!) do not make it "pay 2 win" this may serve the companies as money maker
But destroys the game =/

[Kudzu]

Aaron DeChavilier, on 12 December 2011 - 07:48 AM, said:

The greatest sin of clantech
was that its perfect in everyway

Until you get to BV where you have clan light mechs that cost more than IS assaults (Fire Moth D, I'm looking at you!). The typical clan vs IS match up is usually a star of 5 clan mechs vs 8-12 IS mechs and ends up being well balanced. As far as I'm aware none of the MW games have used a BV system to balance the two tech levels, which is why there are so many complaints about clans being so much better.

As to what the clans were introduced for, they advanced the storyline and offered a different play style for the TT-- an elite force that would always be outnumbered.