41 replies to this topic

[Hunka Junk]

We know it's coming:

FP/CW/FW/CP will be IS v Clan single bucket "tug of war".

MY UNDERSTANDING of what that means is that there will be a map and that the two sides will contest one territory and that the amassed wins and losses will determine who gains control of said territory.

Rinse and repeat with one side pushing deeper into the other or giving up ground.

While we could wait for a Mech Con announcement about this, waiting for our devs to do things without our input seems to be a recipe for disaster. I don't want MWO to die, and it would seem that the future staying of many people hinges upon this new version of FP working out.

If I were running this game, I'd be bombarding the players with surveys and questions about how to do this right instead of leaving them angered that this was the ultimate product of a 44-page thread, 6-hour pre-discussion, and 3-hour "roundtable".

I propose we be proactive, stop talking about how this neuters the previous version of FP, and attempt to figure out how the new version will be a win/win situation for us and Russ rather than waiting and giving feedback on some flaming **** version that is universally despised (except by Russ).

The best responses might focus on:

1) How one bucket will alleviate issues from the FP v3

2) What the one bucket system needs to do in order to be successful

3) What problems will emerge from the one bucket system

4) How to correct said problems with the one bucket system

Edited by Hunka Junk, 17 November 2016 - 06:34 AM.

[El Bandito]

We got some good southern Great Houses' units but they couldn't invade the Clan territory from the start should they choose, due to the map restriction. 1 bucket system will probably eliminate that issue. Inter House conflict would be gone, which might be a big blow, but since Clans never did infighting in CW, I don't care about it personally.

What pissed me off in all previous versions of CW is that Merc units basically decided the shape of the IS map at their whim, which is not something I envisioned when I funded the game. PGI needs to do something about that in the next version.

Edited by El Bandito, 17 November 2016 - 06:46 AM.

[Bud Crue]

Sorry but I was under the impression that CW is a mode that was to be a team based game, immersed in the Battletech universe with combat that spanned the inner sphere http://mwomercs.com/game/faction-play

I don't see what the new 1(2) bucket CW as proposed by Russ is going to offer me that QP group queue doesn't already provide. Dots? Four planet tug of war? Nope. Sorry. That isn't enough to give me a pretense of the mode having a point that is in any way different than the arena of QP. Seriously now, does this new and improved 2 bucket CW mode (as proposed by Russ) sound remotely like what the link above describes? "epic confrontation" "ancient and forgotten technology" "a time of galactic turmoil" etc. Funny, but nowhere in that description of the game mode is there any mention of a "bucket" being the only real discerning feature of the mode.

[nehebkau]

What will happen is:

• Some groups with high population will dominate FP when they choose to.
  
• There will be far more pub stomps as players will have no alternative when trying to avoid playing the very good units. (we all know that average groups will switch planets when they meet a vastly superior force).
  
• Clan advantage in scouting will mean that the clan side will have long-tom, sat-sweep and combat ID whenever they have the slightest population advantage. That will kill the will of the remaining steadfast IS players to even bother with FP.
  
• The even more repetitive play of a 1-bucket FP will burn out the remaining FP players once they realize that they are just playing QP without PSR balance and longer waits.

No, i am not being salty just trying to be a realist.

The smartest thing PGI could do is start from the beginning with FP. Keep the stuff that isn't screwed up (i.e. the map) and then take the time to design something good, hire the people required to implement that vision and just go for it. Hell maybe even make it a MWO v2. As it stands now, any more development in FW is just a waste of resources that could be better spent getting solaris or custom QP matches off the ground.

Edited by nehebkau, 17 November 2016 - 06:56 AM.

[Zieten]

Bud Crue, on 17 November 2016 - 06:47 AM, said:

Sorry but I was under the impression that CW is a mode that was to be a team based game, immersed in the Battletech universe with combat that spanned the inner sphere http://mwomercs.com/game/faction-play

I don't see what the new 1(2) bucket CW as proposed by Russ is going to offer me that QP group queue doesn't already provide. Dots? Four planet tug of war? Nope. Sorry. That isn't enough to give me a pretense of the mode having a point that is in any way different than the arena of QP. Seriously now, does this new and improved 2 bucket CW mode (as proposed by Russ) sound remotely like what the link above describes? "epic confrontation" "ancient and forgotten technology" "a time of galactic turmoil" etc. Funny, but nowhere in that description of the game mode is there any mention of a "bucket" being the only real discerning feature of the mode.

I totally agree with all your stated points, but the reality of FW is a different one. You got barely enough players for all the factions and waiting for matches takes forever. IMO a temporary IS vs Clans FW could at least win back some players and if the playerbase gets big enough again for more than 2 factions PGI could revert it back to the original factions.
Although I know that with PGIs track record it is far more likely that the band-aid (2 faction FW) will stay forever..

[Bud Crue]

Zieten, on 17 November 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

I totally agree with all your stated points, but the reality of FW is a different one. You got barely enough players for all the factions and waiting for matches takes forever. IMO a temporary IS vs Clans FW could at least win back some players and if the playerbase gets big enough again for more than 2 factions PGI could revert it back to the original factions.
Although I know that with PGIs track record it is far more likely that the band-aid (2 faction FW) will stay forever..

Yep. That is indeed the reality...which is why I, and it would seem a lot of other former CW players, now just skip it for the most part and play QP group queue.

Dumping the remaining population into two buckets is going to draw a few of us back for a while -just to try it if nothing else- but if the game play is the same...which it sounds like it is going to be based on Russ's comments ("core game play is fine")... then I don't see how it will entice or encourage anyone to stay any more than the current version does. In my view bucket reduction is a mere band-aid to get the small remaining population quicker matches; nothing more. Quicker matches in a mode that is not distinctive from QP but for gens and gates and dots; will not motivate old players to come back (over the long term) nor attract new players.

Edited by Bud Crue, 17 November 2016 - 07:10 AM.

[Lostdragon]

Will one bucket make the awful maps and modes better? Because that is primarily what keeps me out of FW. If PGI is serious about FW they need to swallow their pride and hire someone with a proven track record in designing this type of content and give him/her the reigns. Scrap the horrible mess that is there and invest the time and money into doing it right and creating a compelling end game experience everyone can enjoy. I know that is extreme and would mean they wasted a lot of time and money on the current version, but holy crap, what we have is a hot mess and I don't see anyway to fix it without starting over.

[Hunka Junk]

In an effort to focus on what might work, I wasn't around for the Battle of TurkeyYouDid or some such.

It seems to be remembered as a high point in this game, but i have no idea what it was in terms of design.

Will 1 Bucket relate to that in any meaningful way?

[Scyther]

From what I've seen, CW/FP has never really 'worked' from day one, if by working we mean provide an engaging end-game environment that attracts and retains players who are seeking something more than QuickPlay.

I agree with those who say a reduced bucket approach is basically just a short term bandaid to allow the few FP players to actually get matches. It won't attract or retain anyone new to the mode as all the flaws of the mode will remain.

The primary issue appears to be positioning FP as an 'elite', team-based mode in a game which struggles to maintain adequate numbers for casual quickplay. Pugstomps, large companies dominating maps, long match waits, lack of player retention all stems from this.

If MWO had 5 or 10 times the player base FP would probably work. As it is, it needs to be re-imagined as an alternative to QP that appeals to/rewards a large percentage of the current player base. Otherwise even though it kills me to say so, they might as well just drop it and work on making QP more varied and interesting.

[Novakaine]

Minimally Viable Community Warfare.

[Mystere]

Galactic Campaigns.
Planetary Campaigns.
Logistics.
Alliances.
Wide Variety of Extensive Maps.
Wide Variety of game modes with different victory conditions.

The above are what we need as a bare minimum, and not a cut-down version with no indication whatsoever of what underlying vision is behind it all.

What we are hearing does not look like progress. It smells more like a death knell.



And speaking of death, it's time to go back to killing dragons ...

Edited by Mystere, 17 November 2016 - 07:47 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

lol no

Invasion mode is boring, Scout mode is boring. I'm not going to play more bottleneck warfare just to show support. PGI should have listened to feedback long ago. I'm not playing FP until they make it fun.

[Mystere]

Zieten, on 17 November 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

I totally agree with all your stated points, but the reality of FW is a different one. You got barely enough players for all the factions and waiting for matches takes forever. IMO a temporary IS vs Clans FW could at least win back some players and if the playerbase gets big enough again for more than 2 factions PGI could revert it back to the original factions.
Although I know that with PGIs track record it is far more likely that the band-aid (2 faction FW) will stay forever..

What makes people think that a cut-down version with exactly the same game modes will make people flock to CW? Can someone please explain that to me?

FYI, I haven't dropped in CW for months now precisely because I am already bored with it. Heck, my MWO playtime is now drastically reduced too also because of the same said boredom.

MadBadger, on 17 November 2016 - 07:37 AM, said:

If MWO had 5 or 10 times the player base FP would probably work. As it is, it needs to be re-imagined as an alternative to QP that appeals to/rewards a large percentage of the current player base. Otherwise even though it kills me to say so, they might as well just drop it and work on making QP more varied and interesting close shop.

That's my view on this whole issue. A purely arena game is not what I signed up for.

Edited by Mystere, 17 November 2016 - 03:56 PM.

[El Bandito]

Mystere, on 17 November 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

What makes people think that a cut-down version with exactly the same game modes will make people flock to CW? Can someone please explain that to me?

I personally don't care about individual factions due to the population imbalance between them. All I care about the less bucket system is that it will allow me to find matches that much faster when a CW event worth playing comes up.

[SirNotlag]

Zieten, on 17 November 2016 - 06:55 AM, said:

I totally agree with all your stated points, but the reality of FW is a different one. You got barely enough players for all the factions and waiting for matches takes forever. IMO a temporary IS vs Clans FW could at least win back some players and if the playerbase gets big enough again for more than 2 factions PGI could revert it back to the original factions.
Although I know that with PGIs track record it is far more likely that the band-aid (2 faction FW) will stay forever..

I wouldn't mind dropping the groups down to 2 factions to handle low populations and slowly working it back up as the more people play (If more people play). Bringing it up to 4 different alliances perhaps grouping Davion, Steiner, and FRR as one alliance, while Liao, Marik, and Kurita form the other, The Clans are simply split between east and west invasion lanes or however you want to call it. So there can be IS and Clan infighting again and it would be easier to implement all the other clans as invaders if the only difference was the banner you fought under and the decals on your mech.

Granted that is not Lore wise at all since the houses and Clans probably wouldn't have Companies and Stars consisting of a big mix of people but we don't have the player population to have each faction separate.

[Hunka Junk]

Mystere, on 17 November 2016 - 08:08 AM, said:

What makes people think that a cut-down version with exactly the same game modes will make people flock to CW? Can someone please explain that to me?

That's my view on this whole issue. A purely arena game is not what I signed up for.

That's pretty much what I think as well, but I'm not so sure our devs realize this.

If this is the case, let it be established now instead of waiting to be surprised.

[Mystere]

El Bandito, on 17 November 2016 - 08:26 AM, said:

I personally don't care about individual factions due to the population imbalance between them. All I care about the less bucket system is that it will allow me to find matches that much faster when a CW event worth playing comes up.

In other words, it's not going to attract more regular players.

[Baulven]

Here is the problem with 1 bucket CW - it absolutely does not address any of the actual problems that faction play possesses. FP is boring, repetitive and her no point. It takes a letter time commitment than QP, usually can be determined by the first wave (the to no match maker) and her other issues.

If you always lost scouting to clans you need to change your tactics as an aside. I have her it to back and forth on both protect and gather depending on how the group decides to play.

In reality what we need is an immersive experience. This is why people still say that want the idea of Planetside 2 but with mechs. If you get three locations on a map that could be assaulted at any time, and each gave a bonus (One combat IS for when you lock a target immediately, 2 for set sweep and 3 for tom) and could be taken away at any time that would create a want to play. Instead of drop decks your mech gets out on a cool down timer that increases every death (minor reduction for premium time) and count that as repair and rearm. If you need to a repair depot you can get your ammo and armor fixed at 1% every 30 seconds as you wait.

Ok I went full dream mode. Sorry.

[Cy Mitchell]

Tristan Winter, on 17 November 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

lol no

Invasion mode is boring, Scout mode is boring. I'm not going to play more bottleneck warfare just to show support. PGI should have listened to feedback long ago. I'm not playing FP until they make it fun.

I agree with this. The Faction Play maps are boring. The goals to achieve victory make no sense in relation to the conquest of a planet. Shooting generators to open gates, really? The maps are badly designed and dictate strategy. All this is bad enough before you even begin to discuss the lack of lore and motivation to capture anything.

Mercenary units control the balance of power and instead of challenging one another, they all flock to the same faction and avoid head to head confrontations. They also thrive on crushing smaller units and solo players.

The reason for the long wait times in FP is the lack of players. The reason for lack of players are the points (and others) that I listed above. If the gameplay was fun then buckets would not be such a problem. As it stands now, it is so bad and so boring that even bribes cannot get people to play it. The current FP event clearly shows that.

QP is much more fun and just as fulfilling. Make Faction Play fun to play like that and then make wins and conquest of planets mean something on the star map and in unit rewards. Then you will see those buckets start to fill up again.

[Baulven]

Rampage, on 17 November 2016 - 08:52 AM, said:

I agree with this. The Faction Play maps are boring. The goals to achieve victory make no sense in relation to the conquest of a planet. Shooting generators to open gates, really? The maps are badly designed and dictate strategy. All this is bad enough before you even begin to discuss the lack of lore and motivation to capture anything.

Mercenary units control the balance of power and instead of challenging one another, they all flock to the same faction and avoid head to head confrontations. They also thrive on crushing smaller units and solo players.

The reason for the long wait times in FP is the lack of players. The reason for lack of players are the points (and others) that I listed above. If the gameplay was fun then buckets would not be such a problem. As it stands now, it is so bad and so boring that even bribes cannot get people to play it. The current FP event clearly shows that.

QP is much more fun and just as fulfilling. Make Faction Play fun to play like that and then make wins and conquest of planets mean something on the star map and in unit rewards. Then you will see those buckets start to fill up again.

They don't make traditional sense but they make battletech sense objective wise. The ancient doctrine of planets was, to minimize damage from stompy robots, you get to assault and claim the twelve stationary guns on a planet. IF you managed to complete this the planet was claimed, without reducing their infrastructure to the stone age in the process.