307 replies to this topic

[Black Lanner]

In the TT, there is obviously much more of a variation in the spread of the missiles. For example: LRM 15 rack can do anthing from 5-15 damage done to 1 to 3 locations. Most commonly it is 12 damage done in groups of 5, 5, and 2. Most commonly the damage is done to the torsos.

In MWO, if the locks can be maintained, that LRM 15 is usually always dealing full damage. This puts the DPS output on par with a barrage from 3 or so Gauss rifles.

However, I have a very effective and simple solution to this issue, Radar Dep! And like that, suddenly, unless there is a UAV or other circumstance, I am no longer taking LRM damage, because I just need to break the lock for a moment.

[Tesunie]

Black Lanner, on 01 May 2017 - 11:14 PM, said:

In MWO, if the locks can be maintained, that LRM 15 is usually always dealing full damage. This puts the DPS output on par with a barrage from 3 or so Gauss rifles.

However, I have a very effective and simple solution to this issue, Radar Dep! And like that, suddenly, unless there is a UAV or other circumstance, I am no longer taking LRM damage, because I just need to break the lock for a moment.

Not necessarily arguing here, but wanted to add. The LRM15 in MW:O is likely to spread out across anywhere from 2 to 7 components, dealing anywhere from 10 to 1 point of damage, and may even have some missiles miss. (Not to say they can't be useful, mind.)

As for Radar Dep, hate it. But, Adv Target Decay does counteract "most" of Radar Dep, and a good LRMer kinda needs it.

[Black Lanner]

Tesunie, on 01 May 2017 - 11:29 PM, said:

Not necessarily arguing here, but wanted to add. The LRM15 in MW:O is likely to spread out across anywhere from 2 to 7 components, dealing anywhere from 10 to 1 point of damage, and may even have some missiles miss. (Not to say they can't be useful, mind.)

As for Radar Dep, hate it. But, Adv Target Decay does counteract "most" of Radar Dep, and a good LRMer kinda needs it.

um... no, sorry, the moment I am out of sight with my Radar Dep, you are S.O.L. if you don't believe me, get a private game going and test it. Also there is this:
http://mwomercs.com/...veloper-vlog-4/
So, if folks don't like LRMs, get the Radar Dep! To give that added finger to LRMs, put it on ECM 'Mechs.

[Burning2nd]

Make LRM's great again!

good i miss the old Lrmageddon days,

my lrm boat has been pushed to the rear of my drop ship... I covered it so it doesn't get dusty...


Until we meet again

[Tesunie]

Black Lanner, on 02 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

um... no, sorry, the moment I am out of sight with my Radar Dep, you are S.O.L. if you don't believe me, get a private game going and test it. Also there is this:
http://mwomercs.com/...veloper-vlog-4/
So, if folks don't like LRMs, get the Radar Dep! To give that added finger to LRMs, put it on ECM 'Mechs.

From my testing, Adv. Target Decay does still extend target locks, but it doesn't fully counter Radar Dep (which is something that I don't like).

The relation works like this:
Base Target Decay is 2.5 seconds (I believe or it's somewhere in there).
Radar Deprivation "loses lock instantly", by removing base decay. Basically, it removes 2.5 seconds of target decay.
Adv. Target Decay (ATD) adds 1.5 seconds over base decay to make it last 3.5 seconds instead.
When a target has Radar Deprivation, and the locker has ATD, the decay is reduced to 1.5 seconds, that amount of time that ATD grants on top of base decay.

It's still less than base decay in that situation, but better than instantly losing locks. I've actually gone rounds with a moderator about this because the mod said that ATD is a direct and full counter to Radar Dep, which it isn't. ATD is only a partial counter to Radar Dep, not a full counter. Just like TAG is a partial counter to ECM at range, but is not a full counter (you still have increased missile lock on times).

That Vlog is only a short hand of the interaction between modules. On it's on, base, without ATD being added in, does remove all target decay. The exception to the rule is if the targeter has it's counter module. (They really should have explained this.)

I can say I have tested this in live combat, and can tell the difference between those of my mechs with ATD and those that don't as soon as I come across a target with Radar Dep on. That reminds me, one of my Huntsmen still needs ATD...
(If you really wanted to test it with me, I'd be more than happy to do a private lobby with you. The tough part would be setting up a time when each of us are on at the same time to perform the tests.)

[Skrapha]

The views expressed in this post are not necessarily mine, nor are they meant to be gospel truth.

As it sayeth in the holy text of Witticisms and Criticisms, book of Kek, chapter 4:

Some people hate LRMs is that everyone has had that experience of being lurmed to death by an unseen foe, hidden, safe, and out of harms way. You desperately twist and trying trying to escape, but you cant! Where are these accursed missiles coming from? who dares send them my way? why me? why not the other guy over there? Why isn't he getting lurmed to death? Then it seems every enemy mech is streaming a piss stream of missiles all at you, no one else, as you desperately run for cover. "Come out you cowardly bastar@ds, and fight me like a man!" you cry, only to be answered by more missiles, pummeling you to death and leaving you watching your mech doing a badly done impromptu dance on the streets of crimson strait.

Some people dont like them because they seem like the cowardly way to fight, giving damage without getting any in return, and from far away. Most people want a "fair" fight, mecho a mecho, various gender VS various gender, and so on.....

Some people don't like there big and bad atlas death machine being lurmed to death by that silly little jenner with aspirations of grandeur, which is equally bad in there eyes as being nibbled to death by locusts, all alone on polar highlands, abandoned by your team, your tears freezing on your face, whuile your cries get carried of in the wind, unheard and uncared for......

Some dont like the idea of a fat, lazy, insolent maddog or (insert token LRM boat here) sitting alone in a corner pissing missiles into the blue sky, making money and taking names without any work involved, taking a damage score of 900 home without effort or a care in the world.....while those busting chops and brawling hard and fast, slaying mechs left and right take home less, but for far more effort and cost.

Some see it as a way for newcomers and potatoes to still be relevant in a hard game, or for those who cant aim, are to old, or to slow to grasp the intricacies of mwo to use and still feel like they contributed to the game. Pull the trigger and kill things, no effort involved.

Some think using LRMS takes skill, and with a properly kitted mech with the right modules can be a great addition to the team, working the targets that the rest of the team are targeting, following the death ball around the map providing fire support much like a rifleman, only with missiles not bullets.

Some just think its fun to annoy the cr@p out of people with a constant stream of LRM5s, the finger of god pointing down from the heavens tracing a line in the dirt after you, always following you, pushing you back behind cover, and woe be to you if it touches you....

to lurm is to love, and to love is to lurm, for thy shall give as thy receive, or the salt harvest shall indeed be.....bountiful.

Amen

[LMP]

Ton for ton LRMs are the least effective weapon, but what's missing from this equation is that LRMs can be used from a relatively safe place behind cover while other weapons by nature expose you to greater danger.

[Arugela]

They also amplify damage because you can fire them from behind a friend and get DPS where you couldn't otherwise. Good for small spaces. It also amplified damage and lets you hurt things from anywhere in it's range doing the same thing from halfway across the map. That is the point. It's artillery. There are lots of places your enemy should be forcing you into situations where not as many LOS weapons can hit. That is one place you want LRMs. It evens out the damage more and helps you win.

Edited by Arugela, 05 June 2017 - 11:18 PM.

[Lord of MEGALICHIKA]

For me, LRM is just a waepon system, and as far as i'm concern ,it's great when on my side/ team, but rotten if it's on the other team

Edited by GoenAre1, 27 August 2017 - 09:31 PM.

[Tesunie]

And so, this thread becomes resurrected again...

[InspectorG]

Tesunie, on 27 August 2017 - 09:35 PM, said:

And so, this thread becomes resurrected again...

The timeless tale:

Newbs and Bads think it has potential as fire support.

Tryhards and Comps see it as wasted tonnage that promotes sandbagging.

The story goes on...

[General Solo]

To be Continued............

[Trissila]

InspectorG, on 30 August 2017 - 06:45 PM, said:

The timeless tale:

Newbs and Bads think it has potential as fire support.

Tryhards and Comps see it as wasted tonnage that promotes sandbagging.

The story goes on...

And some people see them as valuable tactical options, when deployed intelligently.

I'm currently running a Timberwolf with 6 cERMLs and 2 LRM10 racks. The lasers are the primary weapons and provide a decent alpha at 42; not exactly meta but then I'm not Tier 1 either. The launchers are supplemental: they give me a lot of attack options that I simply wouldn't have if I, say, stuck a couple more lasers on there (to say nothing of the fact that it runs a little toasty at 6 as it is, and any more would push into Ghost Heat territory where stagger-fire would increase required facetime to uncomfortable levels).

It's nice to be able to have a nigh-guaranteed follow-up shot if I land a juicy hit on an exposed target with the lasers, pushing the alpha damage up into the 60s. It's even nicer having a way to get in a final bit of damage when a target fades back around cover, or to open up on one from around a corner before rounding and dumping the lasers into it. It's super cool to be able to hear someone call out a target, twist and realize that it's a little over 500 meters away or out of direct LoS... and still be able to help them out by chucking a volley over there before going back to what I was doing.

LRMs can put in some nice work as long as you use them as supplemental weapons rather than max-range artillery. Their effectiveness increases dramatically when they're fired from ~300 meters instead of ~800.

[TooDumbToQuit]

A friend of mine just got the Ace of Spades in an LRM assault.

[The Basilisk]

As long as I can not change my loadout before a drop and as long as the maps are given at random it would be just stupid to gimp myself with a weaponsystem that is highly dependent of my teammates, their loadout and the map.

To a certain grade this goes for all weaponsystem but none except the LRM performes that differently on different maps and team compositions.

So the choice should be clear to everyone not just wanting to play LRMs because they just want to play LRMs or the few ppl that can not use non autoaim weapons out of medical or hardware reasons.

[InspectorG]

Trissila, on 31 August 2017 - 05:54 AM, said:

And some people see them as valuable tactical options, when deployed intelligently.

Not really, or it would see tournament play.

Best LRMs can do is intimidate newbs/bads in Solo. Which has some merits early on, but when one has to carry, lose value quickly.

That 'follow up'shot likely loses LoS, and thus damage spread, if you are being defensibly responsible.

if you facetank to get those 2LRM10, you are exposing yourself to whatever return fire for 20 damage that spreads between 2+ components.
Even more so if you skipped Artemis and TAG, which give LRMs whatever utility they can have.

Yes, its best to LRM from 300m.

Did you factor in AMS? Lots of AMS these days.

Better to hit first, hit hard, and defend/re-position.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8604a04488cece5

[Kitty Bacon]

Black Lanner, on 02 May 2017 - 12:20 AM, said:

um... no, sorry, the moment I am out of sight with my Radar Dep, you are S.O.L. if you don't believe me, get a private game going and test it. Also there is this:
http://mwomercs.com/...veloper-vlog-4/
So, if folks don't like LRMs, get the Radar Dep! To give that added finger to LRMs, put it on ECM 'Mechs.

This is actually why I started running a narc on my LRM mechs. Since I am going to be 300-500m away from my targets anyways, might as well take advantage of the fact I have to face tank for a second or two to get a target narc'd, then watch the stream of missiles head in.

Or if I am running with a more dedicated LRM mech or two, I take the Treb 7M with a narc and 2 LRM10s. Can 'poptart narc' at enemies and my friends will add to the pain. (Never run more than 2-3 LRM dedicated boats since if the team has brawlers and you don't, you will lose of they rush... )

[Trissila]

InspectorG, on 31 August 2017 - 09:32 AM, said:

Not really, or it would see tournament play.

Best LRMs can do is intimidate newbs/bads in Solo. Which has some merits early on, but when one has to carry, lose value quickly.

That 'follow up'shot likely loses LoS, and thus damage spread, if you are being defensibly responsible.

if you facetank to get those 2LRM10, you are exposing yourself to whatever return fire for 20 damage that spreads between 2+ components.
Even more so if you skipped Artemis and TAG, which give LRMs whatever utility they can have.

Yes, its best to LRM from 300m.

Did you factor in AMS? Lots of AMS these days.

Better to hit first, hit hard, and defend/re-position.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8604a04488cece5

Tournament play is not even remotely the same thing as Tier 3 or lower pub play. You can play slightly sub-optimal and still do more than fine. Even beyond that, you don't always have to face-tank to get the missiles in there, flanking is a thing that occurs. Spread damage is also occasionally fine -- if a target's cored out, and especially if it's running XL, I'm not particularly worried which torso the damage goes to.

And if we're talking about very-high-level play where missiles lose all of their effectiveness, I'm not sure why we're worrying about AMS -- who would waste tonnage and slots on countermeasures for weapons systems that are not used?

Laser/Gauss is more reliable pinpoint damage, yes, and more meta. I never argued that point; in point of fact I outright said it's hardly a meta build, but then I'm also not Tier 1 and I don't play CP so strictly adhering to meta is not required. In the games I play, the benefits of having the option to attack out-of-LoS outweigh the marginal damage boost in perfect scenarios.

[InspectorG]

Trissila, on 31 August 2017 - 10:36 AM, said:

Tournament play is not even remotely the same thing as Tier 3 or lower pub play. You can play slightly sub-optimal and still do more than fine. Even beyond that, you don't always have to face-tank to get the missiles in there, flanking is a thing that occurs. Spread damage is also occasionally fine -- if a target's cored out, and especially if it's running XL, I'm not particularly worried which torso the damage goes to.

And if we're talking about very-high-level play where missiles lose all of their effectiveness, I'm not sure why we're worrying about AMS -- who would waste tonnage and slots on countermeasures for weapons systems that are not used?

Laser/Gauss is more reliable pinpoint damage, yes, and more meta. I never argued that point; in point of fact I outright said it's hardly a meta build, but then I'm also not Tier 1 and I don't play CP so strictly adhering to meta is not required. In the games I play, the benefits of having the option to attack out-of-LoS outweigh the marginal damage boost in perfect scenarios.

Yes, Tournament play is not the same as Pugs. But Comp play shows how to maximize builds to get the most out of resources. Apparently very few payers understand how to build a decent loadout. The number of kitchen sink builds i see in Puglandia is staggering.

You dont have to use Meta, but when you stray too far, you lose efficiency which leads to trolling, or builds that make it harder to win.

As far as AMS, im talking about in Solo play, where there are lots of it. If you are running 2LRM10 with No Artemis and No TAG, very few missiles will reach the target, unless you are farming some dude way out of position.

If you prefer non-LoS missiles in Solo, thats fine as long as you arent trying to win. That 'marginal' boost to damage in 'perfect' scenarios likely weights more in Puglandia than you think because your teammates dont press R or look at their Radar.

I guess it boils down to if you try to win or just want to shoot robots.

[Tesunie]

I was trying not to comment here any farther, as I consider this thread to have run it's course...

But I'll just remark that I'm a T2 player and, over hundreds of matches played in different chassis and build loadouts, I confidently have better statistical performance in every recorded stat with my LRM builds over just about all my other builds (especially W/L). So far, only a single build, with more than a hundred matches, of mine that does not have LRMs on it has better stats on it, and even then only slightly.

This is a culmination of single player QP as well as group play records (as the forum site does not distinguish the two). I have done my best to perform in all my mech loadouts. This is statistical fact for myself. Of course, as such it does not mean it applies to all, but for myself I am apparently better off being placed within an LRM build over a direct fire only build.

I'll also remark that I don't boat LRMs, which may have a contributing factor to my statistical data.


Oh, and if anyone says to me again "but if you faced a comp team like EMP...". Done that. Have the screen shots to prove it if asked. I think I held myself well in the match. (I don't square off against comp teams too often, and when I do I don't consider myself at their level to begin with anyway, no matter my build.)


So, my conclusion overall:
- Depends upon the pilot.
- It's a game, so people should use what they have fun with.
- Depends upon the build and what people are expecting to get out of it.
- Comp play does not equal non-comp play.
- Screw the meta, I'll be sitting in whatever mech and/or build I have fun with, and hopefully do well in too. All that there is to it.
- People should stop trying to tell other people what they should play. It's a game. We should all be having fun with it. (Within the rules, of course.)