307 replies to this topic

[Mechwarrior4670152]

McHoshi, on 14 April 2017 - 04:37 PM, said:

No one hates Lurms...

No.... There are plenty of people who really do.

I have been TK'd several times just for carrying them on my mech

[InspectorG]

Acehilator, on 14 April 2017 - 04:58 PM, said:

Uh, a 13 pages anti-LRM semi-threadnought and I missed it? Omg!

Some of the best these forums have to offer!!!

[Anatoly Kerensky]

Just to provide a bit of context to the "let everyone play what they like" argument:

Yesterday I met Oldbob10025 (the OP) in a group queue match where he could not stop complaining about my team using "gauss/ppc-meta builds", which are apparently "no skill noob weapons" and "easy mode".

Is he going to make a video titled "Gauss/PPC HATE WTF?". Somehow I feel that's not gonna happen.

Edited by Anatoly Kerensky, 15 April 2017 - 09:20 PM.

[Oldbob10025]

Anatoly Kerensky, on 15 April 2017 - 08:58 PM, said:

Just to provide a bit of context to the "let everyone play what they like" argument:

Yesterday I met Oldbob10025 (the OP) in a group queue match where he could not stop complaining about my team using "gauss/ppc-meta builds", which are apparently "no skill noob weapons" and "easy mode".

Is he going to make a video titled "Gauss/PPC HATE WTF?". Somehow I feel that's not gonna happen.

Its on my project list... The "Gauss/PPC Hate WTF" video will happen as The argument from both sides would have the following..

1)LRM users dont trade armor.. The Gauss/PPC dont as well as most of them hide behind buildings and snipe from over 1k away.

2)LRM is a noob weapon and should be banned as their is no skill involved in it.. Having a weapon where you do a 35-50 point alpha on one spot such as the Gauss/PPC weapon with 1 gauss/2 PPC would be like a noob tube from Call of Duty where you kill a person with one shot, like a 35 -50 point alpha 2 guass/2 PPC on a persons torso after a bit of damage from your own team. So not much skill in doing that and a Easy Button if you ask me Anatoly Kerensky.

3) Most people with no skill gravitate towards the easy button weapons (Not all and not saying you do) but a whole group of people do go for the "Noob Tubes" because its easy and the most effective. Its ok and thats what you want to play. LRM's and Gauss/PPC alike have the same advantages and disadvantages but for some people like the Elite AssHass Tier 1 (not all as some are hella cool people)players like to harass the people that have LRMS while not really thinking on why they play Gauss/PPC builds only all the time...

BTW Anatoly Kerensky I dont hate you or anything we just have a difference of opinion and thats all. The hate that is fueled in this conversation is a bit much and well not healty in real life as soon as you wrote this you checked out my profile but thats ok my friend, were going to have a difference of opinion and hell that happens in life, but its how you handle it is the way you run your life.

WTF Gauss/PPC builds video will be coming out but sometimes I dont like all the Hate/Negative **** that comes with building a video with all the Tier 1 AssHates that will be hell bent on my destruction because I have a difference of opinion like this video of the WTF LRM Haters video. I got so much hate from Elite's that the Gauss/PPC video went on the back burner and i'm doing projects that I want and make me happy than having to deal with peoples childish ego's in real life. Its a game man not some real life ****.

I get up and get dressed and work two jobs, 14-16 hours later I come home work on some youtube project then spend some time with my wife then go do it again mon-friday. Why would I want to deal with peoples EGO about a difference of opinion about who likes what weapon or why LRM's should be banned or counter point someone about PPC/Gauss builds. Youtubers on a whole dont like dealing with that **** and most of the time ignore it and just fluff it off but it does get to a youtuber sometimes and well thats why I put it on the back burner.. Why deal with it?

anyways see you on the field of battle Anatoly Kerensky and I hope this helps you understand some points but hey were going to disagree on somethings and thats ok man.. Its not real life and a pixel game

[G4LV4TR0N]

For me LRM's are much harder to use and much more situational compared to Gauss/PPC that is almost always good on any map and at any range. But at certain tonnages, per ton they are actually capable of dealing more damage over time. Anyhow Gauss/PPC is a complete build and running pure LRM boat is usually subpar to mixed build.

Edited by G4LV4TR0N, 16 April 2017 - 07:44 AM.

[Black Lanner]

Honestly, my most successful LRM build is on the Huntsman. 4 LRM 15s on chainfire and a pair of lasers. In my opinion, in MWO, the only time you put LRMs on Heavys or Assaults is if 8-10 of the 'Mechs on your team are all running LRM builds or you have just an epic team with different, established roles that everyone fulfills.

Edited by Black Lanner, 17 April 2017 - 07:45 PM.

[CraneArmy]

1) if you are going to play selfish with lrms, why is nobody else allowed to?
2) if you dont bring a tag, attmept to maintain your own locks/line of sight or share armor, why should others appease you?

LRM's do have a niche application, but there are reasons you dont see them in comp and there are reasons good CW teams dont bring them except on a lark. Boating LRM's may contribute, but on the whole it is a detraction from the potential of your team.

even if you just do a break down of damage potential / ton LRM's arnt there. then you consider hit percentage, and the damage that actually contributed to the kill, lrm's biggest contribution is screen shake / suppression. They are just extremely mediocre and worst of all, influence bad habits.

[Tesunie]

Black Lanner, on 16 April 2017 - 10:46 PM, said:

Honestly, my most successful LRM build is on the Huntsman. 4 LRM 10s on chainfire and a pair of lasers. In my opinion, in MWO, the only time you put LRMs on Heavys or Assaults is if 8-10 of the 'Mechs on your team are all running LRM builds or you have just an epic team with different, established roles that everyone fulfills.

I think an advantage the Huntsmen has (don't tell PGI) over other missile carriers (for the most part) is that equipping LRMs (or SRMs) doesn't increase it's hit box sizes.

I've noticed a lot of missile weapon messes increase the hit box size of the mechs greatly, and always LRMs more than SRMs. I mean, take a Battlemaster, place a single missile weapon on it's side torso. You'll notice this huge rack suddenly appears to encompass them. Try that with an XL engine, and watch yourself die from side torso death on the missile side constantly.

Compare that to, say, a Mad Dog. Place any missile, even LRMs on it, and it's hit boxes don't increase. It's considered a great mech for missiles. Same goes with the Huntsmen and the Catapult (now that you don't get those "VCR" racks, that did get removed, right?).

Most of the mechs considered good for missiles (of particular note LRMs), most of them share the same feature of note gaining huge weapon messes that increase hit box sizes. The Huntsmen is just one of those said mechs, so it's good to use LRMs/missiles if the player so chooses to do so. (It's speed and jump abilities also aids in that role as well.)

[Anatoly Kerensky]

Oldbob10025, on 16 April 2017 - 07:04 AM, said:

"Gauss/PPC Hate WTF" video will happen

I am surprised that you would do this, but I am happy to be able to drop the subject for now. Although I obviously don't agree with you about the PPC = noob weapon part, I think this is better left for another time.

To the point of running LRMs, to me there are only two relevant factors regarding this topic, both of which should be relatively obvious.

1.) Carrying is a reality of the game.
Sometimes you have to carry, sometimes you are carried by others. Sometimes you just play ****** and some other time you make the game of your life. Mechlab decisions also factor in here. If I decide to run a stock Urbanmech, I am much less likely to be able to carry and much more likely to be in need of carrying (compared to, say, a 6 SPL Arctic Cheetah). I am not very fond of Urbanmechs but I sure love my Panthers. I feel entitled to play those, since they are a valid part of the game.
However, I understand that by selecting a Panther I am somewhat nerfing myself, making me more heavily reliant on the rest of the team than I would be with a "meta" mech. If I repeatedly ran into the same set of people in the solo queue and they would ask me to change my setup (which has happened), I would change it to something more potent. The least I would do is to wait a couple of minutes after the match to avoid being matched with - and thereby impairing the effectiveness of - the same group of people over and over. Not so the LRM crowd! Which leads me to the second point:

2.) LRMs are bad, because they are:
- mostly ineffective at long range (they provide the enemy with a warning and enough time to seek cover and/or prepare for torso twisting/armor rolling to further spread the already highly dispersed damage
- mostly ineffective at close range (IS: 180 m, Clan: ~100 m due to damage reduction, also locks are harder to hold at close range)
- mostly ineffective against ECM mechs (losing TAG means losing lock in the same instant and shooting without lock does only really work against very slow mechs, because LRMs themselves are so slow)
- making it necessary to aquire and hold locks, which is bad because:
- you can't torso twist
- you can't poptart
- you can't corner peek
- you can't hill hump
(at least by far not as effective as with other weapons)

Gauss/PPC builds (just as an example) in comparison are:
- highly effective at long range
- higly effective at medium range
- somewhat effective at close range (and a true threat to lights)
- allow for torso twisting
- work well against ECM builds
- allow poptarting, corner peeking and hill humping

All of which basically amounts to: There is a reason why meta builds are meta and why LRMs are nowhere to be found there.

These are the two levels here. If you say "I like running LRMs" then that's your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to have. Nothing to see here.
But if you say "LRMs are good" you are making a factual statement, which can be objectively evaluated along the lines of true/false, mostly true/mostly false. This is the reason why someone referred to the fans of the rocket as "flat earthers" because many just refuse to accept what should be blatantly obvious and is also not really subject to opinion, since the science is already in. There are only very few circumstances where LRMs have their place and the solo queue of Tier 1-3 is most definitely not one of them. You can still run them of course, but you can't reasonably claim them to be 'good'.

The reason that this causes so much frustration in the community is mainly because of frequency. I do show up with panthers, urbies, trebuchets or vindicators. But I only do it occasionally. This seems to be true for most other people as well. LRM boats however are very common and even builds as specific as the infamous LRM Atlas are seen on a daily basis.

Edited by Anatoly Kerensky, 18 April 2017 - 11:05 AM.

[Tesunie]

Anatoly Kerensky, on 18 April 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

2.) LRMs are bad, because they are:
- mostly ineffective at long range (they provide the enemy with a warning and enough time to seek cover and/or prepare for torso twisting/armor rolling to further spread the already highly dispersed damage)
- mostly ineffective at close range (IS: 180 m, Clan: ~100 m due to damage reduction, also locks are harder to hold at close range)
- mostly ineffective against ECM mechs (losing TAG means losing lock in the same instant and shooting without lock does only really work against very slow mechs, because LRMs themselves are so slow)
- making it necessary to aquire and hold locks, which is bad because:
- you can't torso twist
- you can't poptart
- you can't corner peek
- you can't hill hump
(at least by far not as effective as with other weapons)

I'd like to disagree here. LRMs are not bad, but neither are they great. They are "alright to good", depending upon how you use them.

To go over the counterpoints:
- Ineffective at long range, agreed. However, that is for damage. They can provide additional suppression at long ranges, as the pilots hear the warning longer, which means more likely chance they are going to duck into cover. This could force someone into cover for several seconds, which is longer than when being hit by a more direct fire weapon at those ranges (but doesn't always deal damage as a counterpoint).
- Ineffective at close range, partial agreement. LRMs are most effective as you get closer to their minimum range, but not inside that range. This is why I always take alternative weapons, something that can cover closer ranges with direct fire capabilities. I find LRMs work best in a mix build, where parts of the build compliment each other and is capable of covering each other's weaknesses. Of course, tonnage and skills permitting. Not everyone has the skill set to utilize a mixed build effectively and to it's fullest. I wont deny the power of a focused/specialized build, but there are also strengths to less focused builds as well. Each has it's place, and each can be used to good effectiveness.
- ECM has been a problem for a while now. Not just to LRMs, but it is most harmful to them. Thing is, ECM is never suppose to hinder missiles like how they do in the game now, as it's basically replacing AMS. Once again though, I'd toss in another reason to bring a mixed build, bring UAVs and remain on the front lines with your allies. It's unlikely the whole enemy team will have ECM. (I have to admit, I've stopped bringing TAG and APs on my LRM based mechs. Instead, I'd prefer another MLs or something to fend off those attackers.)
- Locks are easier to maintain at closer ranges. This is why I say LRMs get better the closer they get to minimum ranges. If you are shooting LRMs outside 600m, they are massively less likely to hit. But, if you have Adv Target Decay, you have a good chance your LRMs will hit targets within 600m or less.

- If they are close enough, you can. Lock, shoot, twist away. The LRMs shouldn't lose lock so quickly that they don't still find their target. Also, another reason to bring alternative weapons.

- I poptart all the time in my LRM Huntsmen. Then again, the tactic is to get more use of my ERMLs than anything else. I just tend to get a lock, then a missile lock as I shoot my lasers. As a departing gift, I often send LRMs out before I disappear, often leading to hits with my LRMs from my poptarting shots.

- This is debatable. Depends upon the corner, how it's approached, teammates, etc. It's much harder to corner poke with LRMs than it is to poptart with them. Then again, CERLLs are also harder to corner poke with as well, due to their longer burn times. Gauss can be as well, depending upon how you use that charge up mechanic. Charge after seeing a target? You'll be exposed longer. Charge before hand? You may hit them with a snap shot, or you may charge too long and lose the shot altogether.

- Hill Humping falls under the same difficulty as Jump Sniping for LRMs. It's very much possible, depending upon the intent of their use... I do this rather regularly myself.

I will comment, this is how I use LRMs. However, I have had many matches where I've died and is now spectating. I sometimes land on another LRM user (often times a boat). I observe how they play their LRMs... and I cringe. I want to tell them all the little things they are doing incorrectly, or things they could be doing better... or to get up with their team to be more of a help... But I don't often say anything to them.

So, for the average LRM user (who tends to boat the system)... Yeah...

Anatoly Kerensky, on 18 April 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

These are the two levels here. If you say "I like running LRMs" then that's your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to have. Nothing to see here.
But if you say "LRMs are good" you are making a factual statement, which can be objectively evaluated along the lines of true/false, mostly true/mostly false. This is the reason why someone referred to the fans of the rocket as "flat earthers" because many just refuse to accept what should be blatantly obvious and is also not really subject to opinion, since the science is already in. There are only very few circumstances where LRMs have their place and the solo queue of Tier 1-3 is most definitely not one of them. You can still run them of course, but you can't reasonably claim them to be 'good'.

There are always exceptions to the rules, as well as different skill sets.

As far as LRMs go, I'd have to say they are a good weapon system in this game. Not great. Not the best. Certainly not the worst either. Just "good". Of course, depending upon how they are being used. By the typical person's use of LRMs, they can be seen as rather poor, as most people don't play them very well. Then again, I try not to rank a weapon based on how the average seem to use it, but by how I tend to use it and what results I get from it. If I went by some averages I've seen, I'd believe SLs are bad, because I've seen many people try to play a sniper war with them... and deal no damage because they are outside of range... But, I don't blame the weapon in that case.

I'll also make note, LRMs is what got me out of T3 and into T2...

[Oldbob10025]

Anatoly Kerensky, on 18 April 2017 - 10:52 AM, said:

I am surprised that you would do this, but I am happy to be able to drop the subject for now. Although I obviously don't agree with you about the PPC = noob weapon part, I think this is better left for another time.

To the point of running LRMs, to me there are only two relevant factors regarding this topic, both of which should be relatively obvious.

1.) Carrying is a reality of the game.
Sometimes you have to carry, sometimes you are carried by others. Sometimes you just play ****** and some other time you make the game of your life. Mechlab decisions also factor in here. If I decide to run a stock Urbanmech, I am much less likely to be able to carry and much more likely to be in need of carrying (compared to, say, a 6 SPL Arctic Cheetah). I am not very fond of Urbanmechs but I sure love my Panthers. I feel entitled to play those, since they are a valid part of the game.
However, I understand that by selecting a Panther I am somewhat nerfing myself, making me more heavily reliant on the rest of the team than I would be with a "meta" mech. If I repeatedly ran into the same set of people in the solo queue and they would ask me to change my setup (which has happened), I would change it to something more potent. The least I would do is to wait a couple of minutes after the match to avoid being matched with - and thereby impairing the effectiveness of - the same group of people over and over. Not so the LRM crowd! Which leads me to the second point:

2.) LRMs are bad, because they are:
- mostly ineffective at long range (they provide the enemy with a warning and enough time to seek cover and/or prepare for torso twisting/armor rolling to further spread the already highly dispersed damage
- mostly ineffective at close range (IS: 180 m, Clan: ~100 m due to damage reduction, also locks are harder to hold at close range)
- mostly ineffective against ECM mechs (losing TAG means losing lock in the same instant and shooting without lock does only really work against very slow mechs, because LRMs themselves are so slow)
- making it necessary to aquire and hold locks, which is bad because:
- you can't torso twist
- you can't poptart
- you can't corner peek
- you can't hill hump
(at least by far not as effective as with other weapons)

Gauss/PPC builds (just as an example) in comparison are:
- highly effective at long range
- higly effective at medium range
- somewhat effective at close range (and a true threat to lights)
- allow for torso twisting
- work well against ECM builds
- allow poptarting, corner peeking and hill humping

All of which basically amounts to: There is a reason why meta builds are meta and why LRMs are nowhere to be found there.

These are the two levels here. If you say "I like running LRMs" then that's your opinion, which you are perfectly entitled to have. Nothing to see here.
But if you say "LRMs are good" you are making a factual statement, which can be objectively evaluated along the lines of true/false, mostly true/mostly false. This is the reason why someone referred to the fans of the rocket as "flat earthers" because many just refuse to accept what should be blatantly obvious and is also not really subject to opinion, since the science is already in. There are only very few circumstances where LRMs have their place and the solo queue of Tier 1-3 is most definitely not one of them. You can still run them of course, but you can't reasonably claim them to be 'good'.

The reason that this causes so much frustration in the community is mainly because of frequency. I do show up with panthers, urbies, trebuchets or vindicators. But I only do it occasionally. This seems to be true for most other people as well. LRM boats however are very common and even builds as specific as the infamous LRM Atlas are seen on a daily basis.

Its great we can disagree on things and well were never going to see eye to eye but thats ok.. Enjoy playing MechWarrior Online and the only thing I ask is just dont discourage people from playing the game based on why you dislike LRM's and Love Gauss/PPC builds.. Do what you want and just play for fun sometimes...

See you on the Battlefield...

[Void Angel]

Lady A, on 26 November 2016 - 03:21 PM, said:

You're quite right. A dual ER PPC "Sniping" Atlas (without ECM) attempting, somehow, to go unnoticed and flank, using Advanced Zoom and taking 10-15 seconds to try and line up every shot while managing to actually hit nothing is just as detrimental to the team as Locko McLocksplease the LRMs-or-bust Atlas pilot. Moreso, even.

n.b. My salty view may be influenced by the match I just spectated.

Heheh. This Reminds Me of Something. The post wasn't even about LRM boat Atlases; I just mentioned it in passing as a bad idea...

[Void Angel]

PS: (ER)PPCs are not "newbie" weapons - on the contrary, while not magically difficult to master, they are difficult for inexperienced players to manage because of their high heat and low dps. In order to use a PPC well, you have to know where to shoot from and hit what you aim at, something new players are still getting down.

Similarly, the inferiority of LRMs compared to direct-fire options of all kinds is empirically demonstrable, and is not really a matter of "seeing eye to eye" - it's more a matter of whether you accept facts. Even anecdotal evidence from high-level players will tell you that LRMs are inferior; this doesn't mean you can't use them well, but the return for skill is always lower, and with the rare exception of focused premade teams, high-level players use direct-fire weapons when they want to bring their best game.

[warner2]

I personally found this video to be a little hypocritical. The general message was don't dislike LRMs, they are a thing, but the OP several times revealed at least a little bit of dislike for laser vomit and especially PPC/GR "meta" builds.

It's hypocritical to generalise about any given play style whilst trying to defend another.

I agree that laser vomit is generally quite easy although I would add that heat management will come into an energy heavy build and separates good players from bad.

I disagree that PPC/GR is easy, entirely. You have to lead PPCs and the travel time is not great... Bad players don't use GR with that charge up mechanic, let alone combine the two.

PPC/GR was easy back in the day when there was no charge up time and the travel time of PPC synched with GR!

[Nelos Kniven]

I am a LRM hater. The reason: LRMs kill every other match. In the first five minuets. Polar Highlands always kills with LRMs. I don't hate them as a weapon. I hate them because they always kill me. Really really fast. I have no problem with a Catapult, who is meant to LRM. I have a problem with everyone making it their main weapon. My AMS can't help. Not even ECM. Maybe MRMs, RLs and ATMs will make them less common and keep me alive...

[Tesunie]

warner2, on 19 April 2017 - 01:08 PM, said:

PPC/GR was easy back in the day when there was no charge up time and the travel time of PPC synched with GR!

This can also be artificially easier to do if you have a Macro... Just saying. (Though I get what you are saying.)

[B0oN]

Seemingly, some LRM users STILL havent found out what the meaning of SELFSUFFICIENCE is .

Too bad

[Tesunie]

The Shortbus, on 19 April 2017 - 02:16 PM, said:

Seemingly, some LRM users STILL havent found out what the meaning of SELFSUFFICIENCE is .

Too bad

As an LRM user...


You wont hear me complaining about your statement. Which is kinda sad honestly...

[Alaric Hasek]

LRMs in Battletech are a completely different beast than in MWO. MWO LRMS are almost ALWAYS fired indirectly as opposed to the almost ALWAYS directly fired LRMs in BT, Yes, there is indirect fire in BT but it's very difficult to hit.

TheLuc, on 23 November 2016 - 11:54 AM, said:

Oldbob10025, while there is those players hate LRMs, usually those are also same crowd as the CoD, BF type that knows nothing about BattleTech lore. Hope in the future those players learn what is Battletech instead of brining that WAAC mentality that the BF and CoD community has. LRMs are there for a reason as specified in the fluff.

Then again if PGI would put effort into lore for MWO it would surely change the picture.

BTW always glad to watch a vid from you Bob

[Tesunie]

Alaric Hasek, on 19 April 2017 - 02:29 PM, said:

LRMs in Battletech are a completely different beast than in MWO. MWO LRMS are almost ALWAYS fired indirectly as opposed to the almost ALWAYS directly fired LRMs in BT, Yes, there is indirect fire in BT but it's very difficult to hit.

Actually... LRMs are still less likely to hit when fired indirectly, when compared to shooting them with more information provided by a direct line of sight and personal lock...

Of course, this is situational and team dependent...