783 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

DOUBLE EDIT: THIS THREAD IS BOTH 6 YEARS OLD, AND COMPLICATED.

Reader comprehension is advised

Edit: Now with 100% More French!

This is for all the times you've looked at your minimap and seen the entire team huddled together like a flock of frightened sheep while the enemy team advances as a unit and swarms you under. This is for every time you've died after heavy combat and popped in to spectate an undamaged brawler plinking away with his one long-range weapon. This is for all the times you've seen an isolated Victor running along your flank, and couldn't get anyone big enough to stop him to leave cover and try. This is for all of us, Mechwarriors - Timidity is Not a Tactic.

Now, I enjoy MWO - enough to write guides for it, in fact. But if I had to identify the number one problem I run into in the game, it wouldn't be a broken weapon system, an overpowered or underpowered 'Mech, or even matchmaker issues and hit registration. No, the biggest issue I see with MWO is more serious - the game trains cowardice.

The process by which it does this is simple, psychologically speaking. People learn by interpreting the feedback provided by their actions. If they get punished for doing something a certain way, they will tend to try other ways to do things, and deferred punishments and rewards are far less effective at modifying behaviors. The problem in MWO is that the rewards for certain good practices (such as taking damage in order to get close or set up a cross fire) are deferred, but the punishment - the visceral negative feedback of damage alarms, missile warnings, and incoming weapons fire - is immediate, particularly if you make an error. This leads us to the major problem affecting PuG gameplay:

Vicious Cycle. The combination of deferred rewards and immediate punishments, combined with the lack of communication typical to PuGs and the dominance of long-range weaponry, sets up a vicious cycle - what is called in biology a positive feedback loop. Players receive immediate punishment from exposing themselves to damage, even for good cause, and for making errors. The rewards for many actions, on the other hand, are not immediately given, and can be precluded entirely by the actions of your team - if they fail to support you, you can do the right thing for nothing. This encourages players to play more cautiously, letting other players take the risks; thus causing other players to learn that PuGs can't be trusted to watch their backs; which encourages them to play more cautiously, and so on; the process feeds on itself in a vicious cycle - a positive feedback loop.

Timidity as a Tactic: Thus we have the problems which plague so much of the PuG environment. Players will run to the rim of the caldera in Caustic Valley, then stop and refuse to move or expose themselves if anyone is shooting at them; they'll rush to the entrance to the "PuG Zapper" in Terra Therma, then cluster and back up if they take any fire; they'll camp whatever cover is available where they first take incoming, and refuse to move even when desperate warnings and cries for help are issued over coms - I know, I've been the poor sucker getting Julius Caesared on the flank. This is a major component of the current PuG metagame; players only feel like they should be shooting when effective return fire isn't possible for the enemy. When faced with enemy action, people's first response is no longer an immediate recourse to lethal weaponry - it's to hide and preserve their armor. They're not doing it because they're stupid, nasty, dirty little Puggles; they're doing it because the game trains them to be that way. Most PuG matches devolve into a waiting game where everyone scatters out to find their favorite hiding rock and start getting liquored up for the end of the match, when one side gets an advantage and finally starts to close.

Hope for the Battlefield: This doesn't mean that we're all doomed to camp-and-hide tactics unless you're playing in the group queue. Humans are the only species on the planet which relies on learned behaviors as its primary survival strategy - we can override the conditioning of our environment by making choices as rational agents. To this end, I have these suggestions:

• Support Your Teammates. Always support the team, even when they're being stupid. Brawlers sometimes get bored, and snipers are often really, really scared of enemy fire. But if the four brawler/scouts on your team run in alone, it's bad - just like when the snipers refuse to leave their favorite spots in order to help repulse or commit to a push. Either of these options is bad, but leaving half the team unsupported is critical - and you can't control the rest of the team - just yourself. No matter how stupid you know they're being, support your teammates no matter what. Even a bad plan, executed now and with violence of action, is preferable to letting your teammates die in a pyre of foolishness and shame without at least getting something out of it. Give advice if there's time, but get to where you can participate in the action - you'll mitigate the damage if they're being stupid, and avoid sabotaging your team if they're not.
  
• Keep Moving. You may be a long-range mech - in fact, it's likely these days - but staying put too long allows you to be outmaneuvered (see Appendix A) and leaves you vulnerable. Additionally, if you have any brawlers on your team, they can help you better if you move with them - and not moving often makes them unable to help you, because of enemy supporting fire.
  
• Damage Is Like Water. You can drown in the river, but getting a little wet won't kill you. The game inadvertently conditions you to react to any damage as if it is an immediately lethal threat - remember that in reality, durability is just a resource, no different from your heat and ammo. It's important to use that resource wisely, but - particularly for Heavies and Assaults - it's there to be used. In fact, sometimes the best durability you can make use of is someone else's: if the enemy is shooting at your teammate, as a practical matter they cannot shoot at you at the same time. Thus, if you see a large volume of fire coming at your Friendly Neighborhood Atlas, often the best thing you can do is use that window to return fire at the enemy while they focus on killing your friend.
  
• Share Armor. This is related to the previous two points, but is vital enough that it warrants its own bullet point. If your team is fighting the enemy team (even in a defensive position,) it is always better to expose more people to enemy fire. This is true even if the enemy is focusing their fire to kill your individual teammates as quickly as possible - in fact, it's especially true then. Your enemies simply cannot shoot effectively at two people at once; the human brain isn't set up that way, even if the 'mech could support the logistics. What this means is that the more of you the enemy has to shoot at, the better off you all are. Enemy fire will be spread amongst more targets (particularly in the solo matches that concern us,) and less effective overall. Share armor when it all hits the fan - you'll always be better for it.
  
• Learn to Scout. These days, lights have it hard. With the fixes to hit registration and the increased prevalence of LRMs and long-range weapons, it's very hard to do the scouting part of your job - to the point that some players (I'm looking at you, Firestarter pilots) will actually refuse to leave the team until the main fight starts. This is a mistake. You don't have to be running around on the other side of the map - and shouldn't be, if you can't survive alone out there. I get that; but you can and should still be out on the flanks watching for the enemy and relaying information to your team; use long sight distances instead of proximity to the enemy to look for them. Ditto with ECM snipers who never bother to tell the team what they're seeing from their semi-invisible vantage points. That being said, scouting is everyone's job, to a certain extent - if you see something important, call it out if you can. It's important. Giving the team that information allows them to make better judgements about what to do, and will help to break the positive feedback loop of excessive caution.
  
• Use Your Words. Get a microphone headset and use it. The cost is trivial compared to the price of a computer that can run the game, and voice communication is the most powerful tactical tool ever given to gamers. Don't chatter, and don't harangue your teammates - you only really need to call out short alert messages - like, "Three heavies in D3," or "Assault 'mechs behind us!"

The vicious cycle I've described here is actually a very common phenomenon that we're all aware of - it's a form of stage fright. Anxiety causes physical tension, which causes more anxiety, increasing physical tension, until the sufferer can't decide on any course of action and becomes tongue-tied and paralyzed. That's exactly the phenomenon we're seeing on the battlefield, just with tactics instead of public speaking - and like stage fright, all you have to do to break the cycle is move. Recognize that it's happening, and take specific action to break out of it, and eventually we'll see our fellow Mechwarriors start to get over it, too.

---

At the end of the day, you should be cautious up to a point - recklessness is the courage of a fool, after all. But you have to keep in mind that, just as you don't go to a knife fight without expecting to be cut, you can't go to a 'mech fight and not expect to be blasted apart and melted down into commemorative paperweights from time to time. The most important thing you can do is cooperate with your team, no matter what your build - maneuver for a flank shot with your sniper/missile build; being a "light killer" doesn't mean you can't scout so long as you stay close by the main body. If you can't focus fire from your position, you need to move, and if the big 'mech(s) are engaging, go in with them. Don't be stupid, but don't let fear (or tactical tunnel-vision) restrain you from helping the team. As one of the Fracking Atlas pilots, I do not mind dying a horrible death as long as the team backs me up - because teamwork, not fear, is the true key to survival.

Timidity is not a tactic.


Appendix I: The problem with camping

Spoiler

Recently, I've seen a lot of the sort of behavior that this guide encourages people to avoid. Upon reflection, aside from the points covered above, I suspect many players aren't understanding the tactical implications of staying in one spot for too long.

On the surface, it seems like a viable tactic: you set up your ambush, and wait for them to come to you. Wait for them to come just far enough into your trap, then smash their forward elements before they can react, gaining a decisive advantage. Sounds fun, and it's totally do-able... If you're a premade team with voice chat and experience playing with this tactic. Good on you, and well done, but this guide is dealing with the Pug/small group solo queue - by all means take what you can from it, but it is not for you.

Even with the advent of integrated VoIP, the general hesitancy of people in a pick-up match to immediately follow the orders of some random teammate makes camping a risky proposition. I'm not writing this to tell you not to set up ambushes - if you're feeling it with your team, by all means talk to each other and plan it out! But if you're not deliberately coordinating the ambush, I offer you these words of caution: camping is dangerous. It's not that the risk can't outweigh the reward, but understand that it is risky for a variety of reasons:

• Camping cedes the initiative to the enemy. A commonly-cited principle of self-defense is that most fistfights are won by the first good punch. Similarly, the first side in a match to have a significant portion of their tonnage killed or crippled is at a major disadvantage. By staying in one place and waiting to see what the enemy does, you're allowing him that first swing. Sure, he might miss, or start too slow so you can counter-punch - but he gets to decide where and how to hit you, and you have to respond. The opportunity to make the first mistake is yours.
  
• Camping muddles your forces' ability to react to enemy actions in a concerted manner. One of the ways a PUG communicates is by actions. When you are on the move, even without VoIP, you are all moving together, aside from the scouts (hopefully, but that's another thread.) This means that you're all going the same direction and seeing the same things. This means that people who aren't sure of the total situation can take their cue from those around them, and that in turn makes it easier for players to act in concert with one another. If you stop moving, your pilots' minds will wander; they'll start looking in different directions, moving around, getting impatient... They'll start making their own plans. So while the enemy who hits you from the flank is acting in concert, your teammates are at least momentarily unsure of what to do - and the enemy gets in that first good punch.
  
• The side that takes effective action wins. This touches on both the previous points, but it bears repeating. Whether in politics, videogames, or the very serious arena of modern war; the side that acts effectively wins. The best generals throughout history (yes, even Sun Tzu) desired the initiative, and suffered when they lost it. And it is very difficult, for reasons including those above, to take effective action from a static, defensive position - take a moment when your next match starts, and keep track of how long it takes everyone to get moving.

To be clear: fine art of the ambush should not be lost to MWO - nor must you always be charging randomly around the battlefield just for the sake of "doing something." I'm not telling you to never stop moving, or advocating any sort of "lemming bull-rush tactics." But you must realize that the lack of team cohesion inherent in the solo queue environment makes stopping and standing in place hazardous - you should only do it if you have a specific plan, and have actually used your words to tell everyone what's going on.

NOTICE! This guide has undergone major revisions as of May 9th, 2014! The original post can be found here.

And finally, I simply must recommend these Wonderful Tactical Illustrations, in whose creation I had no hand, but which I greatly admire, both for their simplicity and for the quality of their advice. Thank you all for reading through my giant wall of text advice!

Edited 16AUG2016: added "Share Armor," and updated throughout to account for the availability of reliable VOIP.

Edited by Void Angel, 07 November 2022 - 10:13 AM.

[MagicHamsta]

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

Contrary to the line from Dune, fear is a necessary part of a rational mind.

^(o.O)^

[Void Angel]

Or, better yet!

[Selfish]

Void Angel, on 18 January 2013 - 03:44 PM, said:

The people doing the things I mentioned aren't Bad, Selfish People, in most cases.

Dang right they aren't!

[Void Angel]

I think I need to go to the emergency room...

I have word poisoning from that pun.

[LarkinOmega]

Since the first 4 responses were trollish, I have to support this post. There is a reason that my favorite mech is the Atlas, as I can usually get the support of my teammates by being the first over, the first on scene and the lynchpin of the team.

I tend to die, a lot. But I tend to win too.

Get out there and fight Mechwarriors!

[Void Angel]

Now, now, Hamsta isn't a troll! He's a hamster - he's always been very clear on this.

Also, you cannot accuse me of trolling my own post. =)

[Ravennus]

Well said.

[Pandamcpanda]

1. Light mechs are scouts, they should NOT be poking their noses over and getting 2 shot.
2. Sniper mechs by definition are: surprise! snipers! Taking a slow 48 km mech into 6 enemy players to attempt to finish off 1 wounded mech is not only stupid, but suicide. Keep firing and let a light or brawler finish off the kill.
3. A fire control atlas or awesome? well isnt that the point? not every mech has to run into a brawl to the death,

[Void Angel]

So...
1. Scout 'mechs are scouts and should not scout? /logicfail You don't have to skyline yourself, but you do have to go out there and scout - particularly since PGI hopes to have their initial run of netcode fixes ready for the next patch.
2. A straw man is where you respond to an argument that wasn't made in order to discredit a real opinion. I never said to charge into their team with a sniper 'mech. I said to maneuver so you're not just cowering behind Coward's Ridge (for example) and taking the occasional potshot while the team fights. You need to be in a good position to assist your team so that you actually can keep firing. Please read posts more carefully.
3. A fire support Atlas (the only 'mech I mentioned in this point,) meaning an LRM boat, is a stupid build. Anything you can do in that role with an Atlas, the Stalker (and possibly the Awesome) does better. There's nothing inherently wrong with putting in some LRMS for long-range engagements - but you can't afford to make them your primary armament (seriously! The guy had TWO MEDIUM LASERS on an Assault chassis.) An Atlas shines when he's soaking up firepower at medium to short range. It does this not only by being amazingly tough, but by being a rallying point for other 'mechs. I've seen fire support Atlas builds with less firepower than an equivalent catapult. It's just a bad build.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 January 2013 - 12:02 AM.

[Pandamcpanda]

1. Once again, a scouts job is to scout, you know they are over the hill, this is not rocket science. if you poke your head over you are rewarded with a guass or ppc round to the head. scouts should flank or mark targets from angles where they cant be retaliated against so easily. Poking your head around a corner where everyone is looking is about as stupid as you can get.
2. A quote from you: "This is for all the snipers who refuse to focus fire because that would require them to leave cover and assume the risk of actually taking damage." Your very definition of leaving valuable cover to chase a kill directly quoted from what you wrote. If your in a superior fire position and 1 mech gets away from you, let it go, thats what teammates are for.
3. Just because YOU think an atlas has 1 role only doesn't make it a fact. An assault is an assault, and those lrms are the same weight on any mech. Considering that mech warrior matches classes, why not take the extra 15-20 tons of atlas weight over the other 2 mechs? theres no downside.

[Void Angel]

1. One more time, I'm not talking about skylining yourself over that ridge - but you're not doing your job as a scout when you cower behind the dropship and refuse to get eyes on the rest of the field, or check the tunnel. You're insisting on a semantic interpretation of my point that amounts to a straw man. Stop it.

2. Another straw man. I said to maneuver yourself to get good shots, even if it means leaving your 1337 sniper spot. YOU said "take a slow 48 km[sic] mech into 6 enemy players," and now, "leaving valuable cover to chase a kill." This is not what I said, as anyone can see by reading my post. Your insistence that I meant what I've never said is perplexing - you don't have a "superior fire position" if you can't shoot into the main fight, and are just randomly shooting people that happen to wander away from it. An excellent example is the dropship on Coward's Ridge. People will sit on the far side of the dropship, watch the heavies and brawlers disappear over the ridge, and still refuse to leave their 'valuable' cover to maneuver for a shot. This is bad tactics, and this post is for them.

3. Just because YOU think that a straw man is a real argument doesn't make that what I said incorrect. On the contrary, your statement is empirically wrong. 'Mechs are a lot more than their tonnage. A Stalker has more hardpoints, and is more maneuverable, than an Atlas. You can do a brawler atlas, you can do a long-range sniper, even; but you have to be ready and willing to close in - or you should have played a Catapult or a Stalker.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 January 2013 - 11:35 AM.

[Pandamcpanda]

1. Once again, a scouts job is to scout. Quoting you once again: "This is for all the light 'mechs who refuse to poke their noses over Coward's Ridge in the Frozen City." A scout doesn't need to put himself in a suicide position. Simply put, peaking over that ridge nets you nothing, you know the enemy mechs are there, you wont have enough time to even get an lrm lock by hitting r, if you want to go over that ridge yourself, go for it. There is only 1 interpretation to what you said because, surprise! That's what you said verbatim.
2. Again from a DIRECT quote from you: "This is for all the snipers who refuse to focus fire because that would require them to leave cover and assume the risk of actually taking damage." All your quote says is the refusal to focus fire and leave cover. The point of cover is to protect yourself from enemy fire. If you want to go chasing down into the brawl, that's once again up to you.
3. This is the post that really gets me. A stalker has more hardpoints... But is once again limited to weight. Having 6 missile points does not mean you can use 6 lrm 20s. Good luck even trying to put 4 lrm 20s on a stalker, you should have about 0 weight for an engine and 40 points of armor. Just because YOU personally think a mech has a limited amount of roles doesn't make it true. Mech warrior is all about tonnage, and in this iteration, you are sadly matched by class, not actual tons. So once again you are matched by classes, so WHY NOT TAKE THAT EXTRA 15 TONS OF ARMOR AND MECH? Not only that but that atlas can mount an ecm while a stalker and an awesome cant. Also why do you think a stalker is more maneuverable then an atlas? Stock stalker comes with a 255 engine, atlas, with a 300. Both are going the exact same speed of 48.6 kph. Only an atlas has a much greater turning radius due to the 300 engine and has a greater torso turn.

The thing that bothers me most about your posts are the complete inflexibility of your tactics and associating a mech with a specific role. The fact of the matter is, you can take any mech and turn it into your specific play style. Furthermore, if you see you have lrm boats on your team, its time for YOU to change your tactic. Protect those lrm boats. Instead of running into 30 mechs, try guarding your boats and reacting to their counter attack.

[LarkinOmega]

Pandamcpanda, on 19 January 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

1. Once again, a scouts job is to scout. Quoting you once again: "This is for all the light 'mechs who refuse to poke their noses over Coward's Ridge in the Frozen City." A scout doesn't need to put himself in a suicide position. Simply put, peaking over that ridge nets you nothing, you know the enemy mechs are there, you wont have enough time to even get an lrm lock by hitting r, if you want to go over that ridge yourself, go for it. There is only 1 interpretation to what you said because, surprise! That's what you said verbatim.

No, what he said was to re-position and to scout the enemy. Scouting involves approaching from an angle they're not suspecting and to get eyes on what is there. Scouting is retrieving information. It makes a huge difference if you know that their assaults are all Atlas' or Awesomes. What you're referring to is spotting, which is was scouting usually turns into.

Pandamcpanda, on 19 January 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

2. Again from a DIRECT quote from you: "This is for all the snipers who refuse to focus fire because that would require them to leave cover and assume the risk of actually taking damage." All your quote says is the refusal to focus fire and leave cover. The point of cover is to protect yourself from enemy fire. If you want to go chasing down into the brawl, that's once again up to you.

If the fight is taking place where you cannot shoot into it, you are of zero help to your team. Moving out of cover to gain a clear firing angle is required. A few scenarios for a "sniper" mech: 1) Stays in cover, team doesn't need him. Win, he did nothing to help. 2) Stays in cover, team needs him and gets overrun. Either can pick off the enemy 1 by 1 (doubtful since that would require moving) or gets overrun. Loss, could have been a win. 3) Supports the team with direct fire. Snipes from behind the front lines, gets several kills. Solid win. 4) Moves to support the team, gets picked off by enemy sniper. That's less shots going into the main battle line. Potentially a win, but based off of team skill.

Pandamcpanda, on 19 January 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

3. This is the post that really gets me. A stalker has more hardpoints... But is once again limited to weight. Having 6 missile points does not mean you can use 6 lrm 20s. Good luck even trying to put 4 lrm 20s on a stalker, you should have about 0 weight for an engine and 40 points of armor. Just because YOU personally think a mech has a limited amount of roles doesn't make it true. Mech warrior is all about tonnage, and in this iteration, you are sadly matched by class, not actual tons. So once again you are matched by classes, so WHY NOT TAKE THAT EXTRA 15 TONS OF ARMOR AND MECH? Not only that but that atlas can mount an ecm while a stalker and an awesome cant. Also why do you think a stalker is more maneuverable then an atlas? Stock stalker comes with a 255 engine, atlas, with a 300. Both are going the exact same speed of 48.6 kph. Only an atlas has a much greater turning radius due to the 300 engine and has a greater torso turn.

A fire support Atlas has it's place, usually face down and dead. Assume balanced teams, 1 DDC on each side. Assume that the rest of the team dies and it's just the Atlas' left. The Close range Atlas' will win, unless one specific scenario plays out.
(Specific scenario, Flat Plain with no cover, Atlas' engage at maximum range and the LRM one has a TAG in one of it's arms. Also requires the other Atlas' pilot to mindlessly charge while not firing any weapons and just soak up LRM fire. Even with all that, he's still 50% likely to win)

Pandamcpanda, on 19 January 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

The thing that bothers me most about your posts are the complete inflexibility of your tactics and associating a mech with a specific role. The fact of the matter is, you can take any mech and turn it into your specific play style. Furthermore, if you see you have lrm boats on your team, its time for YOU to change your tactic. Protect those lrm boats. Instead of running into 30 mechs, try guarding your boats and reacting to their counter attack.

The thing that bothers me the most about your posts are the complete inflexibility of your tactics and associating a mech with a specific role. The fact of the matter is, you can take any mech and turn it into your specific play style. Furthermore, if you see you have [brawling] boats on your team, its time for YOU to change your tactic[s]. [Cover] those [brawling] boats. Instead of [hanging back and hitting nothing.]

[Void Angel]

Pandamcpanda, on 19 January 2013 - 12:34 PM, said:

1. Once again, a scouts job is to scout. Quoting you once again: "This is for all the light 'mechs who refuse to poke their noses over Coward's Ridge in the Frozen City." A scout doesn't need to put himself in a suicide position. Simply put, peaking over that ridge nets you nothing, you know the enemy mechs are there, you wont have enough time to even get an lrm lock by hitting r, if you want to go over that ridge yourself, go for it. There is only 1 interpretation to what you said because, surprise! That's what you said verbatim.
2. Again from a DIRECT quote from you: "This is for all the snipers who refuse to focus fire because that would require them to leave cover and assume the risk of actually taking damage." All your quote says is the refusal to focus fire and leave cover. The point of cover is to protect yourself from enemy fire. If you want to go chasing down into the brawl, that's once again up to you.
3. This is the post that really gets me. A stalker has more hardpoints... But is once again limited to weight. Having 6 missile points does not mean you can use 6 lrm 20s. Good luck even trying to put 4 lrm 20s on a stalker, you should have about 0 weight for an engine and 40 points of armor. Just because YOU personally think a mech has a limited amount of roles doesn't make it true. Mech warrior is all about tonnage, and in this iteration, you are sadly matched by class, not actual tons. So once again you are matched by classes, so WHY NOT TAKE THAT EXTRA 15 TONS OF ARMOR AND MECH? Not only that but that atlas can mount an ecm while a stalker and an awesome cant. Also why do you think a stalker is more maneuverable then an atlas? Stock stalker comes with a 255 engine, atlas, with a 300. Both are going the exact same speed of 48.6 kph. Only an atlas has a much greater turning radius due to the 300 engine and has a greater torso turn.

The thing that bothers me most about your posts are the complete inflexibility of your tactics and associating a mech with a specific role. The fact of the matter is, you can take any mech and turn it into your specific play style. Furthermore, if you see you have lrm boats on your team, its time for YOU to change your tactic. Protect those lrm boats. Instead of running into 30 mechs, try guarding your boats and reacting to their counter attack.

1. reiterating a debunked position verbatim doesn't may you any less wrong the second time around. As I've already told you, I don't expect lights to skyline themselves; but refusing to look "around" (that's your word) that ridge is bad. If a scout isn't scouting, they're not doing their job - your repeated claim that the only way to do that job is to suicide into the enemy team is simply a straw man fallacy. This is a form of lying - please stop.

2. And AGAIN, insisting that "leaving cover" means "running into the middle of 6 enemy players" is shoddy reasoning at best and deliberately dishonest at worst. As I have ALREADY told you:

Void Angel, on 19 January 2013 - 11:00 AM, said:

I said to maneuver yourself to get good shots, even if it means leaving your 1337 sniper spot... you don't have a "superior fire position" if you can't shoot into the main fight, and are just randomly shooting people that happen to wander away from it.

I notice you don't quote this statement - even though it was a direct rebuttal of your misuse of the earlier quote. Insisting on interpreting my statements to mean other than what I've already explained they do mean is lying - please stop.

3. And here we come to the dangers of pulling "facts" out of thin air to support your dubious claims. A short trip to the mech lab would tell you that you can easily get 4 LRM20s on a Stalker - with an upgraded engine, to boot. Its laser armament will be pathetic if you put in enough ammo to keep it going, and its armor is weaker than I personally like in an Assault - but it's still a high % of the chassis maximum. Switch to LRM15s, and you end up with a throw weight of 75 missiles to the 60 45 thrown by the Atlas - and with a higher rate of fire and a choice of Artemis or 5 more tons of ammo, to boot. Hardpoints are a very important consideration in 'mech design; it's not "all about tonnage." Torso twist speed is also important, and I'm pretty sure the Stalker's twist speed is higher. Even if I'm wrong on this particular point, the weapon hardpoints really do mean that the Stalker wins as an LRM boat.

So. Just because YOU personally believe that an Atlas is just as good a missile boat as a Stalker doesn't make that true. Empirically, the Stalker is substantially better in that role. Where the Atlas excels is direct, line of sight combat where its armor and toughness actually matter before the match is already decided. Ignoring the ballistic and energy hardpoints on a 'mech in order to squeeze in as much ammo as you can to boat missiles is a bad idea.

What really bothers me about your posts is your insistence that I've said things that I haven't said. You can't get from "This one role (LRM boating) is bad for an Atlas" to "I think that all 'mechs can only have one role" except by means of "because I'm a raving lunatic." Instead of skimming posts and thinking that misrepresenting statements is ok just because they're "DIRECT quotes," try carefully reading the opinions and asking yourself if there is a reason you should rationally disagree. Misquotes, angry invective, and straw man fallacies do not make you right - they make you look crazy.

Edit: spelling and grammar, error in Atlas max throw weight, plus inadvertent double quote.

Edited by Void Angel, 19 April 2013 - 12:27 PM.

[Mechteric]

Run away!!!

[Gremlich Johns]

Skylining yourself in ANY mech is stupid and you deserve to be removed from the gene pool.

Until ECM implementation is adjusted (meaning, removal of the cloak over the friendly mainforce) mechs (specifically lights) with ECM only fill an ECM role, not a scout role.

Until knockdown is reintroduced, the light mech swarm tactic will continue to be used to the detriment of those Atlas drivers who no longer take in Atlases because of it.

[Void Angel]

ECM is useful for scouting as well as for its cloaking function. It is also not useful at all times and in all situations. For example, if we're all on the other side of a hill, ECM does us no good whatsoever until we either decide to move, or a scout flanks us for recon and a possible missile lock. At that point ECM is useful for both sides: our side, to prevent visual spotting from calling down explosive rain; and the scouting side, to avoid being locked-on by our forces.

For this reason it makes sense to use light ECM 'mechs to scout - if you have extras, by all means one can stay back. But if you've only got one ECM platform, and it's a light, it'll probably be more viable to use terrain to shield you from observation until you can get close. Then the light can rejoin you, still fulfilling his ECM coverage role - but not at the expense of his scouting capabilities.

[0Life]

All of these are pulled from Sarna so go from there:

[color=#000000]AS7-K - A 3050's Combine upgrade of the [/color]Atlas[color=#000000] that used rediscovered [/color]Star League[color=#000000] technology, the K model was built with an [/color]XL Engine[color=#000000]. The 'Mech was rearmed for long range combat with an Imperator Dragon's Fire [/color]Gauss Rifle[color=#000000] and a Shigunga [/color]LRM-20[color=#000000], backed up by a pair of Victory Nickel Alloy[/color]ER Large Lasers[color=#000000]. This armament allowed the AS7-K to keep an enemy at range, though the use of single heat sinks caused swift heat buildup if both lasers are fired repeatedly. For close range defense, the K model carried two Victory Heartbeat [/color]Medium Pulse Lasers[color=#000000] and a Yori Flyswatter [/color]Anti-Missile System[color=#000000]. To round off the AS7-K's defense, [/color]CASE[color=#000000] was added to the side torsos to protect against an ammunition explosion.[/color]

[color="#000000"]As you can see, the K variant is a long ranged build, not meant for brawling, but as a ranged support mech. So the Atlas that is hanging back, lobbing as many missiles down range into the enemy is not being useless but merely fulfilling the role intended for the mech.[/color]

[color="#000000"]Do I mean that every Atlas pilot should buy stock in LRM producers and stock up? Not by a long shot, but instead, when someone rolls out a LRM boat in any chassis, perhaps you should be less judgmental? If you are running eight mans (hopefully against other eight mans) then sure, the LRM boat Atlas may not be the most competitive and should then be chastised for bringing that into your group. To whine about it from PUGs though is a tad useless.[/color]

[color="#000000"]I do agree that scout mechs (of any weight class, even the Charger) should be doing just that. Scouting. The issue with that though is that many do not understand what it means to scout, and even more are taking a scout mech and changing the load out on it so that it can no longer fulfill that role (see Raven 3L).[/color]

[color="#000000"]Rather than suggesting going over the ridge for the scouts, leave that to the Brawlers. Scouts should be checking the flanks (tunnel, water, whatever) and calling out information from there. Then moving to flank the enemy/capture the... well... capture points. It is what I do in my Spider... and my Raven 3L. My Raven even has TAG (gasp) to be a better support/scout. The loss of firepower of another MLAS is noticeable but worth it in the end, usually. [/color]

[Void Angel]

...
I could just smack you. Sarna is not a reference for this game. What the flavor text copied into sarna says is not tied to what the 'mechs are good for here.

As far as the editorial goes, the first point is invalid, based on fuzzy logic rather than hard fact - nor does it have much to do with my point. The K does indeed have a lot of long-range firepower - and only two missile hardpoints. We're talking about missile boats here - and the Stalker does that hands-down better. Other 'mechs have better throw weight and can upgrade their speeds far more efficiently than the Atlas. So that Atlas pilot isn't "merely fulfilling his role," he's performing sub-optimally and taking up a slot that could have contained a 'mech build that's actually suited to the chassis.

You can't call me judgemental for citing empirically demonstrated fact to tell people that their build is bad. Any build with flamers and machineguns, for example, is bad. Period. No rational argument can be made, because those weapons are empirically far behind in damage/effects per ton, and per time. It's not "judgemental" for me to insist on facts. It might be judgemental for you to spin out a scenario from whole cloth where I'm yelling at teammates for something they can't change during the match - based on a forum post about tactics which could not be read at the same time he's playing the game.

And finally, as I shall now explain for the third fracking time, I said "over the ridge," as in "get to the other side," not as in "stumble stupidly over the top of the obstacle and drool at the other team while they gun you down." Many brawlers are heavy or medium 'mechs - if they go over the ridge blind, they could get hammered. Even if you're in an Atlas, it's always best to know where they are, and only scouts can get you that information. Of course you don't run at the enemy team if you're a scout! Not unless you're a bug abusing jerk who's been spoiled rotten by his lag shield. What I'm telling scouts to do is go forward and get eyes on the enemy - I'm telling them to do their jobs.

PS: please edit and fix your post. The broken formatting and tiny font give me a headache, and make it impossible to tell for certain what's from you, and what's copied from your source.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 January 2013 - 11:02 PM.