105 replies to this topic

[BLOOD WOLF]

Mech The Dane, on 29 November 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Alright. Interesting take. I am afraid I don't see any benefit of going on the tangent you want in this thread, at this time. If you have serious questions I'd be willing to answer them in a PM or in a different forum topic.

As I was saying I think a lot of problems could be resolved by PGI playing the game more.

"They then double-down on this process when they start only listening to people who are extremely positive, rather than perhaps, honest or realistic."

I just want you to elaborate on that point if nothing else, because you seem to be claiming that they picked people that were extremely positive and dishonest or unrealistic people, save you being the only sensible one on that panel. Given also the fact that russ took and meshed a couple of ideas presented together, So what is the evidence for your claim. Maybe you didn't mean it like how its written, becuase I know the forums don't always provide the best of context. I rather you clarify, then drag everyone's name in the mud.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 29 November 2016 - 02:27 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

Wintersdark, on 28 November 2016 - 09:10 PM, said:

probably, hell certainly. But I'd argue that their failure to make CW as it was originally envisioned is not because they lied, or because they set out to mislead.

Rather, I just think it was beyond their capabilities and/or resources. It's very doubtful they chose to make the hot mess we have, they just got here despite the best intentions. After all, it's in their best interest to make a fun and engaging CW, so obviously that was the goal.


I'd say, though, use of the word "promised" in these discussions is prone to problems. Designs shared for a creative work that has not yet been made are by their nature subject to change, and PGI certainly didn't use the word "promise" in any of their descriptions.

PGI is not innocent, but it does no good to act like a hurt child either. They're a business, nothing more or less. They set out to make CW, and they failed pretty spectacularly. They may fix it - I hope they can salvage something good - but I doubt it. Still, there were no promises. This is simply how game design - indeed, any creative work - is. You've got an idea of what you want, but the devil is in the details, in the execution. What you get is never what you wanted initially. Sometimes it's better, usually it's worse. In some cases (such as here) much worse.

Again, no absolution here, just reality.

PGI didn't set out to fail, they just failed. *Shrugs*. No malice.

Ya know, I've actually been thinking about this quite a bit. What could PGI have done in this position? Obviously we want them to be transparent and we want to not feel like we've been misled - but how misled were we really and how transparent could PGI have actually been?

Lets say IGP really was keeping PGI's hands tied on CW - obviously PGI could not say at the time, "IGP wont let us work on it." Also, had they have said what might have been ostentatiously true, "We've stopped all work on CW and are refocusing on things like 3PV" that likely would have created riots and PGI still wouldn't be allowed to say WHY they weren't working on CW - which was IGP.

Or alternatively, if they internally were not capable of realizing their dreams I am not sure publicly saying, "Hey so we tried to make CW but it's way harder than we first imaged and we keep having huge setbacks" would have made sense either from a company standpoint.

If they were actually trying and failing and constantly being disappointed by internal setbacks and roadblocks - there might not be that much more they could have said to us. No company is going to say things that hurt their reputation - even if those things are true.

I think between these two points - company profile and publisher mandate - a case can be made that PGI was doing the best they could in a difficult situation. But the one thing that I'm not sold on is the amount of time it took. How hard is it to put units in-game? Or the phase 1 version of CW, sure even if it was beyond their control PGI can't just say "this is all we could do in 700+ days" or "We lied to you for 3 years because IGP made us so this is what we did in 3 months".

But the 700 days AFTER CW launched were telling. It took a long time for often minor tweaks to be made and the fundamental changes to the main game mode never really happened - even after Phase 3.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 29 November 2016 - 02:45 PM.

[Deathlike]

Mech The Dane, on 29 November 2016 - 02:39 PM, said:

Ya know, I've actually been thinking about this quite a bit. What could PGI have done in this position? Obviously we want them to be transparent and we want to not feel like we've been misled - but how misled were we really and how transparent could PGI have actually been?

Lets say IGP really was keeping PGI's hands tied on CW - obviously PGI could not say at the time, "IGP wont let us work on it." Also, had they have said what might have been ostentatiously true, "We've stopped all work on CW and are refocusing on things like 3PV" that likely would have created riots and PGI still wouldn't be allowed to say WHY they weren't working on CW - which was IGP.

Or alternatively, if they internally were not capable of realizing their dreams I am not sure publicly saying, "Hey so we tried to make CW but it's way harder than we first imaged and we keep having huge setbacks" would have made sense either from a company standpoint.

If they were actually trying and failing and constantly being disappointed by internal setbacks and roadblocks - there might not be that much more they could have said to us. No company is going to say things that hurt their reputation - even if those things are true.

I think between these two points - company profile and publisher mandate - a case can be made that PGI was doing the best they could in a difficult situation. But the one thing that I'm not sold on is the amount of time it took. How hard is it to put units in-game? Or the phase 1 version of CW, sure even if it was beyond their control PGI can't just say "this is all we could do in 700+ days" or "We lied to you for 3 years because IGP made us so this is what we did in 3 months".

But the 700 days AFTER CW launched were telling. It took a long time for often minor tweaks to be made and the fundamental changes to the main game mode never really happened - even after Phase 3.

Well, they either thought it was "complete" during those periods or there wasn't much to "improve upon" even though it's obvious to everyone else but them that it could've been better than what was there.

Otherwise, it's just a random direction and PGI decided to go "this way" instead of "that way".

Even then it's hard to determine what is/was what, and even now I bet they don't really know what the fix should be (outside of buckets).

So even if you exclude FW in the grand scheme of things... we still don't know what direction PGI wants to go in... even if it's e-sports (MWOWC) or single player (no AI improvements/demonstrations since the updated Tutorial) or even Solaris (no specifics to that).

It's one thing to have a direction and people not liking it... it's to not have a (perceivable) direction at all. With all the grandiose ideas back in Beta where CW was mentioned... even if you had a billion ideas, you still have to settle on at least 1, and then make it better... and nothing in the history of this game has suggested that this has really happened w/o large gaps of time passing (even the mechlab update with the smurfy-like building took a year after UI 2.0 was "completed").


So, it's very much a management issue.

[BLOOD WOLF]

what was the point of this thread?

Mechcon is next Saturday, I don't think we needed another road to FW review.

I think some people did a good job addressing some of the issues in the rountable, and the direction that they are going with is alright enough.

these guy want to keep going back to beta.................

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 29 November 2016 - 03:06 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

Deathlike, on 29 November 2016 - 02:56 PM, said:

So, it's very much a management issue.

I think the MMO idea that it started with was exciting. It seems like it has mostly been phased out now though, especially with the probable demise of CW.

In the reddit topic I think KintecX makes a strong point when he says that for PGI Community warfare has not been a good return investment for their work. After spending significant resources and time on Phase 3, only to have the community basically give up on the game mode makes it look as though putting more money into it would just be a mistake.

Perhaps that is why they decided to push the Competitive route recently.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 29 November 2016 - 03:14 PM.

[QueenBlade]

Mech The Dane, on 29 November 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

...

To which they also "dropped the ball" on as well. Even after getting feedback from the competitive scene. Granted once PGI or at least the tourney runners eased on and allowed the units remaining in the regional finals do what they could for the good of the tourney. It at least ended on a better note.

CW/FP was put together. The community really did have a different picture than what PGI had.

I'll probably make a visit to you on teamspeak/discord tonight if you're around. I put together a dev document and sent it to PGI early this year and tell you about it. Just after the completion of the round table we took part in.

[BLOOD WOLF]

QueenBlade, on 29 November 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

I'll probably make a visit to you on teamspeak/discord tonight if you're around. I put together a dev document and sent it to PGI early this year and tell you about it. Just after the completion of the round table we took part in.

what is your view of the rountable, and the direction they decided to go in line with some of the ideas presented?

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 29 November 2016 - 03:26 PM.

[Jarl Dane]

QueenBlade, on 29 November 2016 - 03:23 PM, said:

CW/FP was put together. The community really did have a different picture than what PGI had.

I think part of the problem there was that PGI initially had a very different idea on what CW/FW/FP was at the start, than they did at the end, and they didn't really prepare the community for the difference.

You have Bryan at GDC and Bryan at Launch and the 1st Dev Diary/Blog all saying the original idea..but where do you have any devs promoting and discussing what CW would actually be released as?

[N0MAD]

Dane a question for you because you are a twitcher.
Given the relatively low numbers of views ect compared to dozens and dozens of game that produce much higher number for twitchers/streamers of those games, do you think MWO is really a contender as an Esport game?

[MischiefSC]

Mech The Dane, on 29 November 2016 - 02:18 PM, said:

Alright. Interesting take. I am afraid I don't see any benefit of going on the tangent you want in this thread, at this time. If you have serious questions I'd be willing to answer them in a PM or in a different forum topic.

As I was saying I think a lot of problems could be resolved by PGI playing the game more.

I was at the pre-round table and listened at the round table itself.

I would agree whole heartedly that it was clear Russ had no idea, at all, what was going on in game. LT being an issue was a surprise to him and he was just there to try and get people to accept 1 bukket. That's it.

Which, if he played, would be pretty clearly not the issue.

The round table was not productive. It certainly sparked a *lot* of player ideas and brainstorming about concepts for FW but what it got was "so, you don't like LT? I thought it was cool. Oh, yeah. We're ditching factions to have 1 bukkit. Cuz that's going to be more fun."

Which was essentially none of what the round table put forward aside from getting Russ to see, months too late, that LT needed to go.

[FallingAce]

BLOOD WOLF, on 29 November 2016 - 02:58 PM, said:

what was the point of this thread?

Mechcon is next Saturday, I don't think we needed another road to FW review.

I think some people did a good job addressing some of the issues in the rountable, and the direction that they are going with is alright enough.

these guy want to keep going back to beta.................

Don't have to go back to beta

From 1 year ago
https://mwomercs.com...ost__p__5497219
December 16, 2015

Bullock described Phase 3 as twice as big as both one and two combined. In his words, this third phase adds more depth, giving players a reason to care about planets as well as providing easier access for solo players and PuGs. Both Bullock and Ekman talked about watching factions spread throughout the innersphere as they conquer territories and reap the benefits from controlling planets.

Bullock expressed that his favorite aspect of the incoming changes in Phase 3 is community warfare. “There’s nothing funner in MechWarrior Online than getting in a really great community warfare match,” he said. “Because it’s essentially 12v12 x 4, so really 48 versus 48.”

Phase 3 is such a big deal because “it’s the most important overarching gameplay that we have in MechWarrior Online. It’s the deepest gameplay we have.”

Edited by FallingAce, 29 November 2016 - 04:00 PM.

[naterist]

Mech The Dane, on 29 November 2016 - 03:50 PM, said:

I think part of the problem there was that PGI initially had a very different idea on what CW/FW/FP was at the start, than they did at the end, and they didn't really prepare the community for the difference.

You have Bryan at GDC and Bryan at Launch and the 1st Dev Diary/Blog all saying the original idea..but where do you have any devs promoting and discussing what CW would actually be released as?

This is the reason i think mechcon is gonna be awesome. The ngng 145, roundtable, and the november talk with ngng and russ have shown theyre taking it seriously. And in 145 russ states that the fw events are pgi's version of saying "hey, FW is still on our minds, we havent forgotten yall." So this is almost the opposite. Russ clearly learned from the past because he enphasized what was on target, and what would be in the pipe with a delayed introduction and why. So im confident that while your original message of not getting too excited is the safe bet, im not gonna be shocked if they blow my mind.

[awdwikisi]

Thank you Mech the Dane for elaborating why there are so many players dissatisfied with the game and company.

That 2011 Developer video release with a teaser of CW sold me on the game and when they started the founders program I bought into it with the hope that even half of what was purported would occur. When they once again explained CW in Oct/Sep 2013, to me it was just a reinforcement of the commitment to seeing it through to completion, with a few additions.

Despite the removal of knockdown, faster fire rates, additional armor/structure and other strange changes to the game, I remained hopeful for CW and its contents figuring these changes were needed for CW to be successful.

With CW's lack luster release and its paltry meeting of the original content shown there was a bit of disbelief or something just needed to be beta'd before implementation. I remained hopeful understanding that even though there had been 600+ days of possible development that it just happened to be more difficult to implement than initially thought.

At this point with the other development in the game being satisfactory to a degree, there is no interest for announcements outside those concerning CW. Given the previous achievements I see little reason to be excited for the up coming announcement, unless they show direct evidence they are working on something similar to the original CW videos.

Will this mechwarrior continue to play? Sure, but will there be disappointment and skepticism at every deviation from those CW videos until the tolerance and hope that has kept me going dries up.

[Kael Posavatz]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure MWO was one of, if not the, first game PGI worked on where they have a substantial degree of direct interaction with the player-base.

Over the years the degree and effectiveness of community management has varied greatly. Some of their managers have excelled, others did a good job at alienating players, there was a period of I want to say the better part of a year where there was no community manager, and one who seems largely absent.

I recall when Tina first joined there was a thread to the effect of 'how can I be a good community manager', and a bunch of people cross-linked Cloud Imperium Games' for how to engage with a community. I fully understand they are different companies, with different staff, and different player-bases, but still.

There was a time when there was a monthly Q&A post, before it was abandoned. There were monthly videos of what PGI was working on, before they too were abandoned. The Command Chair used to address game mechanics, changes to them, or how future mechanics would work...and has since been diluted to 'this month's patch will have...'

There was a period of about two weeks where 24-hour faction-specific CW challenges were issued before that too was abandoned (without getting through a complete rotation of factions).

And frankly it seems that the only community engagement we've had since, oh, late August, has been 'wait for MechCon' or 'hear about it at MechCon'.

[Deathlike]

Mech The Dane, on 29 November 2016 - 03:12 PM, said:

Perhaps that is why they decided to push the Competitive route recently.

They did, but didn't even have any specifics when first announced and it was promptly mocked by the comp community... even having supposedly consulted other leagues (at least MRBC). Scheduling was just a hotspot of issues that never really got resolved and players and teams did get burned out from the experience (not saying everyone has the same reasons though).

If you're going to commit to something... you gotta at least do all the way and do it right... neither of which really happened.

[Bud Crue]

FallingAce, on 29 November 2016 - 03:54 PM, said:

Phase 3 is such a big deal because “it’s the most important overarching gameplay that we have in MechWarrior Online. It’s the deepest gameplay we have.”

Stahp. Please.

I'm trying not to choke on my own bile here.

[justcallme A S H]

naterist, on 29 November 2016 - 03:58 PM, said:

This is the reason i think mechcon is gonna be awesome. The ngng 145, roundtable, and the november talk with ngng and russ have shown theyre taking it seriously. And in 145 russ states that the fw events are pgi's version of saying "hey, FW is still on our minds, we havent forgotten yall." So this is almost the opposite. Russ clearly learned from the past because he enphasized what was on target, and what would be in the pipe with a delayed introduction and why. So im confident that while your original message of not getting too excited is the safe bet, im not gonna be shocked if they blow my mind.

Russ has learnt nothing. What went on in the round table was essentially posturing for the most part. Listen to it again, you'll hear the reluctance for things like LT changes, and it took 3 months for that to actually be realised (and never admitted) than it was wrong.

It's been what, 5 months since the round table in total and really, nothing has been done. I'm remember it was discussed that it would be looked into sooner, and once again, absolute SILENCE in the roadmaps. Announcing at MechCon is just a measure to milk more time out of doing anything - another 90 days or so most likely.

Look at the history, that is exactly what has happened each time.

I tell you now that what is going to be delivered will not save/fix FP, especially if it's around the items from the Round Table because those items needed to be done immediately, not 4 months+ later while the population haemorrhaged further. The Round Table could've achieved much more and there was even meant to be a follow-up one from memory... Again, nothing.

[naterist]

justcallme A S H, on 29 November 2016 - 08:06 PM, said:

Russ has learnt nothing. What went on in the round table was essentially posturing for the most part. Listen to it again, you'll hear the reluctance for things like LT changes, and it took 3 months for that to actually be realised (and never admitted) than it was wrong.

It's been what, 5 months since the round table in total and really, nothing has been done. I'm remember it was discussed that it would be looked into sooner, and once again, absolute SILENCE in the roadmaps. Announcing at MechCon is just a measure to milk more time out of doing anything - another 90 days or so most likely.

Look at the history, that is exactly what has happened each time.

I tell you now that what is going to be delivered will not save/fix FP, especially if it's around the items from the Round Table because those items needed to be done immediately, not 4 months+ later while the population haemorrhaged further. The Round Table could've achieved much more and there was even meant to be a follow-up one from memory... Again, nothing.

they did do a follow up, but they didnt discuss anything because trump won the election the day before and everyone was on edge, so they gave an update that they were still working on it and that theyd realease the details theyd saved for that discussion for mechcon, since it was only 3 weeks or so out, and they werent gonna drop anything huge that night anyways. they ended up just talkling about mwo in general, and giving the reassurance that they were still thinking about us and hadnt forgotten their promise to fix FW.

[Carl Vickers]

naterist, on 29 November 2016 - 08:21 PM, said:

they did do a follow up, but they didnt discuss anything because trump won the election the day before and everyone was on edge, so they gave an update that they were still working on it and that theyd realease the details theyd saved for that discussion for mechcon, since it was only 3 weeks or so out, and they werent gonna drop anything huge that night anyways. they ended up just talkling about mwo in general, and giving the reassurance that they were still thinking about us and hadnt forgotten their promise to fix FW.

Still too late to get anywhere near the population back that FW used to have. Most have moved on and are sick of being outright lied to by PGI.

[naterist]

most are just sick of the gen rushes, and thats more of a unit mindset problem then a game problem.

unit just wants to win for the mc, everyone else is there to enjoy a game. i think they should just nuke the MC reward altogether and replace it with cbills. it encourages winning over fun, and no casual is in a game only to win, they want to have fun. and if the casuals arent having fuin then the game cant grow.

i think they should nuke most of their original idea, keep what they have, and build from it. im not interested in logistics, that was my job in the navy, i dont want to do it in a video game.