17 replies to this topic

[Tibbnak]

Currently, right now in MWO, we have the three tier skill tree (Basic, Elite, and Master), as well as modules. These are universal for all mechs in the game, IS and Clan. Everyone ends up getting things like speed tweak and 2xcool run and the agility skills and cooldown modules for your favorite weapon, etc.

On top of this, IS mechs generally have a heaping wad of quirks.



POST-SKILL TREE, These system are unified into a single system, from which you must pick and choose what you want on your mech. By Russ's admission, mechs will have their own skill trees and SP restrictions that vary from mech to mech.

This means that while yes, the base system is still universal despite being unified,

IS mechs will likely have larger numbers to pick from and/or have higher node caps.

CLAN mechs will likely get the same numbers they had before, but now they have to pick and choose in a limited fashion. Over all, they lose out. They end up getting *LESS*, not more.


Theoretical Example:

NOW:

IS mech #1 gets 30% gauss cooldown perk, can get 5% cooldown perk from the elite tier on top of all the basic and elite skill boosts, and a 12% cooldown from module.

Clan mech #1 gets 0% gauss cooldown perk, can get 5% cooldown perk from the elite tier on top of all the basic and elite skill boosts, and a 12% cooldown from module.


POST SKILL TREE:
IS mech #1 can unlock up to 35% worth of gauss cooldown from skill tree, and spend a bunch of nodes unlocking other things.

Clan mech #1 can unlock up to 12.5% gauss cooldown from skill tree, and spend their few remaining nodes on other things.

Edited by Tibbnak, 04 December 2016 - 05:09 AM.

[Tristan Winter]

So maybe Clan mechs will no longer be the highest scoring mechs during leaderboard events, the most popular mechs in elite tournaments (ala World Championships) and the highest rated mechs when you ask both casual and elite MWO players to rate every mech in the game. Maybe, just maybe, the Clan mechs will get the nerf they needed.

Or maybe Paul just got a new dartboard and it won't make a big difference at all.

Edited by Tristan Winter, 04 December 2016 - 05:14 AM.

[TercieI]

Maybe. Much, much more detail is needed before any conclusions are drawn.

[TWIAFU]

TercieI, on 04 December 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Maybe. Much, much more detail is needed before any conclusions are drawn.

Ummm, this your first visit to the interwebs?

[LordNothing]

idk, the quirks are gone, the ones predominantly on is mechs. if clan can choose their own quirks now, independent of omnipod layout, would that not actually make them better?

[QuantumButler]

Oh no muh 90% clan mech win rate.

[FupDup]

Tristan Winter, on 04 December 2016 - 05:12 AM, said:

So maybe Clan mechs will no longer be the highest scoring mechs during leaderboard events, the most popular mechs in elite tournaments (ala World Championships) and the highest rated mechs when you ask both casual and elite MWO players to rate every mech in the game. Maybe, just maybe, the Clan mechs will get the nerf they needed.

By this point in time, I really shouldn't have to point out that not all Clan gundams are created equally.

Some like the Kodiak might "get the nerf they needed," but if you try to argue that something like a Kit Fox "needed" that...I'm gonna find a way to reach through your computer monitor and slap you with an ethernet cable.

Edited by FupDup, 04 December 2016 - 07:33 AM.

[Bombast]

... What?

Did they release the specifics of the new skill system? How do you know Clan mechs will get less quirks? What about mechs like the Huntsman, that don't have many quirks, and many of which are arguably unusuable? Wont that clan mech win out hard, now that, say, the Prime may have a chance at Pulse skills?

[Lightfoot]

It's just Sauce for the Goose as they say.

I know where my Clan tech skill points are going already, but the real question is, how good are you at constructing mechs in Mechlab? Because the new Skill tree is just an extension of Mechlab that you earn over time. Are you good enough to beat the curve?

[a gaijin]

Terciel is right in that we just don't have enough info at this point to make any valid opinions. I wish we did though

[Tristan Winter]

FupDup, on 04 December 2016 - 07:28 AM, said:

By this point in time, I really shouldn't have to point out that not all Clan gundams are created equally.

Some like the Kodiak might "get the nerf they needed," but if you try to argue that something like a Kit Fox "needed" that...I'm gonna find a way to reach through your computer monitor and slap you with an ethernet cable.

I didn't really want to spell the whole thing out (especially since we both know I've made your exact argument about 9000 times on this forum over the years), but I guess we're all working under the assumption that you can give each mech x number of skill tree upgrades. So you can upgrade the Kit Fox all the way up to +10% cooldown bonus, while the Kodiak only goes up to 3%, for example. Isn't that how it works? We now get to grind for 300 hours if we want to give the Summoner the jump jet quirks Russ mentioned last year?

Edited by Tristan Winter, 04 December 2016 - 08:10 AM.

[0bsidion]

While it's entirely possible, hell, likely even, PGI will find a way to make the skills a disappointment OP, your post is almost entirely speculation. Personally I'm going to wait until I know more before I start picking it apart.

[Xythius]

As was mentioned, Russ said they were throwing out all existing quirks. So IS 'mech #1 in your example, will no longer have the 'base' 30% gauss CD quirk and now both IS 'mech #1 & Clan 'mech #1 will be starting from the same baseline.

Also, I keep seeing this idea touted that IS 'mechs will somehow be getting more SP's or have a more expanded tree to put skills into. Where did this come from..? There was nothing mentioned in the reveal about this, yet so far, in a couple of the threads regarding this new skill tree, this has somehow become a thing. Obviously everything is not known at this point, but to just assume that IS 'mechs (or even some Clan 'mechs) will have a deeper pool of SP is a bit presumptive.

As with most games that utilize a skill tree to 'level up' a character/vehicle/etc., there will be the most 'optimal' path - this will be no different. Russ mentioned that there will be different tree's for each 'mech variant; a daunting proposal in itself; there's what, over 300 different 'mech variants in the game right now? And they're going to create a specialized tree for every one? There's bound to be some overlap in there. The vast majority of players, if I were to put money on it, are going to take the path that leads them to the highest tier of Radar Deprivation and Adv. Seismic Sensor (especially Light pilots) - two of the most commonly used 'mech modules. Then they will flesh out the rest of the tree on the weapon mods they favor on that 'mech. Sure, some 'mechs will suffer more than others, but if we're being honest w/ ourselves, the 'mechs that are suffering the most now, have the largest amount of quirks heaped on to them, and they -still- suffer.

And as to Clan 'mechs "Finally getting the nerf they needed", I think Fup pretty much nailed it - many of the Clan 'mechs are sub-par at best. KFX, ADR, MLX, GAR, EXE, IFR, WHK, LBK (unless you purchased the entire collection and have the better 'pods), SMN - all of those are lucky to be mediocre (even tho I am -loving- my SMN-M(L)). And the new skill tree probably isn't going to have much of an effect on these chassis.

Edited by Xythius, 04 December 2016 - 07:58 AM.

[Kylere]

TWIAFU, on 04 December 2016 - 05:14 AM, said:

Ummm, this your first visit to the interwebs?

This was funny, but I could not like it, because he is still right.

[Bandilly]

I think it's waay to early to cry foul. With IS quirks being tossed it's probably more likely that they get shafted by the new system.

With all mechs having the same unlock limits we can presume that heavily quirked mechs gain more per unlock in their specialized areas. At least that's how I see it working.

[Mcgral18]

Under the current system, the Whale could double his twist speed bonus (from 5% to either 8 or 10%)
That could be a benefit


Naturally, some robots simply don't need quirks. The problem with this is that it opens up unnecessary options, like the Kodiak having weapon and durability quirks.

But, you'd expect the Whale, or the Victor, to have considerably more Skill Points than the Kodiak.
Issue being, what's the equivalent to current?

[Bulletsponge0]

TercieI, on 04 December 2016 - 05:13 AM, said:

Maybe. Much, much more detail is needed before any conclusions are drawn.

you get out of here with your rational thought and calm approach. This is not the time for that kind of thinking, this is the time for wild speculation, pitchforks, torches and the hunting of Frankenstein's monster!

[Angel of Annihilation]

Lets be honest here, there is massive potential for FUBAR with this new system. It removes all quirks which means that many IS mechs which are largely dependent on their quirks to be good in alot of cases, will start with zero quirks. Some Clan mechs are in this situation as well but it is a smaller minority.

Also we don't have enough details yet and don't know what specifically they are going to do for example are the trees universal between all mechs or are the trees going to be specific to each variant so that no two mechs are going to be alike? This has major ramifications as well as like the OP states, something like a Kodiak could have extremely crappy skill options while other mechs have much more lucrative options.

Finally and I think this is the point I fear the most, how long is it going to take to skill up a mech? From what I have read, you can have a max of 75 skill points on any give mech and that each point costs 10,000 XP. That being the case, how much XP is needed to give a zero quirked PHX-2, 60% to accel, decel and turn rate, 50% torso twist rate, 5% energy range and a whole slew of additional structure and armor? Right now I get all this out of the gate with zero experience, the minute I load into my first battle but how many battles is it going to take to get back there after the change? Remember this is what was required to make the mech competitive in the first place.

Also for those who are saying that have plenty of experience saved up so they don't care, do you really have plent of experience? For example take my PHX-2. I have earned 75k experience with it which at 10,000 XP per skill point would allow me to buy only 7 skill points out of what, 75? Is 7 skill points going to get me back all those quirks? I doubt it. Even if I take all the experience I have ever earned over 3000+ battles, I only have just over 4.3 million experience. At 750,000 XP per variant to master with all 75 skill points invested, I will only be able to master 5 variants fully and 1 at about 75%....out of I think 108 variants that I own in my stables. Even if I spread out that XP and don't try to fully master any one variant but spending only 20 skill points on each, less than a third of the way mastered for each, I would only be able to do this for 21 of my variants.

So yeah you might think you have enough XP to cover your needs but even someone who has played 5 times as much as I have, 15,000 battles, will only be able to master 26 variants. That doesn't even put a dent in my stable of 108 mechs much less the likely size of a stable that someone with 15,000 battles is likely to have.

I guess the only good news is that I won't be the only one in this situation and at least I have 4.3 million XP to fall back on and will at least be able to make a few of my mechs decent and competitive but I feel sorry for newer or more casual players.

Also this just occurred to me. What is the point of collecting mechs when this rolls into place? I mean I earn about 1400 XP a match so it is going to take me over 500 matches to master a single variant. I have played 3000 matches in 4 years so it is going to take me something like 6 months per variant to master a mech so why buy new mechs? Hell why not sell off about 75 of the ones I own because I am never going to be able to play any of them enough to master them?