283 replies to this topic

[Pjwned]

Wintersdark, on 08 December 2016 - 12:55 PM, said:

This is a problem we're always going to have in one form or another. The alternative is totally removing skills/modules and NOT putting any progression sort of improvements in to replace them, so a brand new mech is identical to a vet's mech - there's no "tuning".

While there's value in that design, people have overwhelmingly shown they prefer there to be some form of progression with mechs (read: skill trees, etc) across games. So, it's not going to go away.

I haven't seen much to suggest that people actually prefer to have "progression" with skill trees and other stupid ****. I've seen far more complaints about it than I've seen praise for it and that's only in this game, but from what I've seen most people just deal with it and don't care a whole lot either way and they just play the games that they like even if they might not thoroughly enjoy every aspect of said games.

Usually the people who actually do prefer "progression" are the idiots who equate grinding with hard work because they're plebs and have **** taste in literally everything, or else they think it's fun to be a wallet warrior and ream other players when they have an objective advantage because they're bad, scrubby plebs who think they're actually good.

[vandalhooch]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 December 2016 - 07:14 AM, said:

Ummmm, you realize those MC nodes aren't any better than other nodes right? They are just nodes you don't ever have to pay for again when respecing?

I get it. But, the tinfoilers will see this as pay money = instant master mech = better mech than free-to-play. Seriously, stop by the Steam forums and you'll see this level of reasoning thrown out by someone at least once a week.

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This is easy, because that amount of GXP is often negligible, I believe it is 1/10th of the Mech XP you make per match.

Yes. Which means that ten matches in any of your other mechs is equal to one match in the mech you aren't playing. The mechs you are playing won't need the GXP and you are getting resources to respec a mech that you aren't actually playing.

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We shall see, but I expect it to be on the expensive side since they seem to be trying to make money through MC all the sudden (it might help if there main revenue stream actually used MC).

Possible. But considering the never ending supply of pitchforks that this player base seems to have access to, I doubt the C-bill cost will be that big. Since we haven't heard them mention using MC to skip the C-bill, XP costs it doesn't make sense to make it super expensive with no alternative.

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New mechs are the c-bill sinks that you seek

But the rule of three is going away so I'm not sure that we'll see total number of mechs being bought with C-bills change all that much.

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....well that and duplicates (so I can have 2-3 versions of the same build) on top of saving up for balance changes that are inevitable. I don't think you understand that at least on the comp side, we often tweak builds either, so that optimal build might change a bit between matches.

I get that. But in your comp builds you have almost certainly already dropped in that mech dozens and dozens of times. Just how much Mech XP do you already have banked for further respecs?

Newly released mechs joining the typical comp lineup will probably have to rely somewhat on GXP at first. But, really competitive players have probably got GXP coming out their ears already. Remember, we're supposed to be getting all of the GXP we already spent unlocking modules back as well.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

I get it. But, the tinfoilers will see this as pay money = instant master mech = better mech than free-to-play. Seriously, stop by the Steam forums and you'll see this level of reasoning thrown out by someone at least once a week.

Why does that matter, tinfoilers are going to say things about that regardless. Tinfoilers shouldn't be the thing stopping a better idea.

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Yes. Which means that ten matches in any of your other mechs is equal to one match in the mech you aren't playing. The mechs you are playing won't need the GXP and you are getting resources to respec a mech that you aren't actually playing.

Yes, but that is 10x the time it would take with that mech, which is absurd. Going from something like 4 matches to 40 matches in the time it takes to recoop that XP lost is absolutely ridiculous.

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Possible. But considering the never ending supply of pitchforks that this player base seems to have access to, I doubt the C-bill cost will be that big. Since we haven't heard them mention using MC to skip the C-bill, XP costs it doesn't make sense to make it super expensive with no alternative.

Then why even try to hedge a "microtransaction" in there? Unless they are trying to enact the Office Space sort of plan in the hopes that we do this so much that it adds up, which is still a bit shady imo.

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

But the rule of three is going away so I'm not sure that we'll see total number of mechs being bought with C-bills change all that much.

With a bit more customization thanks to the skill tree you will likely see a bit more than you would before because duplicates have more of a use granted you would still have to use XP to grind that out so meh.

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

I get that. But in your comp builds you have almost certainly already dropped in that mech dozens and dozens of times.
Just how much Mech XP do you already have banked for further respecs?

Depends on the mech, if it is one I'm testing/experimenting with, then I probably don't have the XP just laying around on it and I'm likely to change the build and or respec it often during that time period. To me this is the problem, the experimentation is done often before you've played it heavily so putting a limiter on that period really seems odd and counter-intuitive.

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 05:29 PM, said:

Newly released mechs joining the typical comp lineup will probably have to rely somewhat on GXP at first. But, really competitive players have probably got GXP coming out their ears already.

I don't have GXP just laying around, something you and many other forget is that comp players aren't just comp players. I wouldn't say I'm a lore fanatic but I'm decently familiar with lore, I also happen to be a collector and a bit of a masochist with 332 mechs mastered currently (I've fallen behind due to burnout after the WC). We do have other aspects to our habits than solely comp.

Sure I'll have enough to respec all my mechs, but not enough to support duplicates without sacrificing part of my collection or support full respecs at a later date on everything.

Edited by Quicksilver Kalasa, 08 December 2016 - 05:46 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Deathlike, on 07 December 2016 - 07:13 PM, said:

I'm still unclear how those respecs operate.

Still, gating the XP the way they are doing it.. will make the grind that already exists, another PITA.

At best, getting all the XP you need will mitigate/distract the actual grind for the next mech to outfit.

At worst, it's just going to get an actual "unending grind" tag, which will put people off on the game even more than they do now.

It's not supposed to take any longer to grind than it already does. Frankly, I don't think that the current grind to level a Mech is bad at all.

Since you say you don't understand how leveling works in other games, I assume this is your first experience with something like this. PGI's proposed level system for Mechs is actually very similar to what's used in other games across the industry. The only difference is that PGI actually lets people respec for free using their C-bills.

The free option actually prevents gating, fyi.

[Nightmare1]

N0MAD, on 07 December 2016 - 07:48 PM, said:

There is no free respec bro.
When they change the system you will of course be able to spec your mech because the system has changed thats not a respec.
I also play STO and have got several free respecs when they changed the system significantly enough that it warranted it.
Also with STO the game gave my what 4 character slots, i was able to level up several characters also delete an remake them, here you need to make a completely new account.
Bad examples are bad bro.
And as far as MWO model being the best well thats your opinion, mine is totally different, opinions are opinions not fact.
IMO STOs model is way beter, eg, Multiple characters for one account, able to delete/recreate characters, i could go on but i leave it at that..

Yes, this has a free respec option - you can respec for C-bills, which you can acquire for free. Acting as if you can only respec using MC is to blatantly ignore this fact.

STO has a very long grind to level characters, and it's clunkier than MWO to switch between species and classes.

Basically, PGI is giving us a leveling system for which we've been begging them for years. They're basing it off of other, similar leveling systems that you can find all across the gaming industry. PGI is giving us the option to respec for free, something not normally done, as a bonus.

...And you're going to grip just because you can, lol. Relax, this is a good thing!

Lastly, you keep saying, "bro." I do not think the word means, what you think it means. You an I aren't related, so try ending your sentences with a different word instead. Also, work on your grammar and spacing. Both are horrible.

L3mming2, on 07 December 2016 - 11:43 PM, said:

its not as easy as it looks, for example how much torso speed twist will you need when u max out lower limb mobility on your LCT? as it is inportant to be able to keep your burn on target during turns...

i'm glad i have 800+ K xp on my LCT to find out...

keep in mind that this nbr will varry between chassi's equiped engines, and with mobility quirks (yes quirks are going to stay but wil be added to the base stats of the chassi)

I didn't need agility quirks on my LCT before the quirkening, and I doubt that I'll need them now, lol.

Basically, you're viewing this from the perspective that people will have a hard time figuring out how to level their Mech to achieve the perfect meta-ness. I look at it from the perspective that now everyone will be able to have an awful lot of variety. MetaMechs, Smurfy, or whatever will take care of the people who can't figure it out on their own. The rest of us will kit out our Mechs to run them how we want them, and then go have fun doing it.

...I don't think that I've ever seen so much knee-jerk panic at a gaming announcement as this one.

Edited by Nightmare1, 08 December 2016 - 06:16 PM.

[Davegt27]

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It's not supposed to take any longer to grind than it already does. Frankly, I don't think that the current grind to level a Mech is bad at all.

Since you say you don't understand how leveling works in other games, I assume this is your first experience with something like this. PGI's proposed level system for Mechs is actually very similar to what's used in other games across the industry. The only difference is that PGI actually lets people respec for free using their C-bills.

The free option actually prevents gating, fyi.

well I have already ground my Mechs do I have to go through the process again or can I opt out?

your right I don't understand how leveling works in other games
as this is not only my first online PC game its my first F2P game

[Wintersdark]

Pjwned, on 08 December 2016 - 05:19 PM, said:

I haven't seen much to suggest that people actually prefer to have "progression" with skill trees and other stupid ****. I've seen far more complaints about it than I've seen praise for it and that's only in this game, but from what I've seen most people just deal with it and don't care a whole lot either way and they just play the games that they like even if they might not thoroughly enjoy every aspect of said games.

Usually the people who actually do prefer "progression" are the idiots who equate grinding with hard work because they're plebs and have **** taste in literally everything, or else they think it's fun to be a wallet warrior and ream other players when they have an objective advantage because they're bad, scrubby plebs who think they're actually good.

I wasn't speaking to this game in particular but in the MMO community overall. Even shooters with some level of progression tend to do better overall. Back in the day, adding XP and **** to CoD was a major part of what really catapulted it forward.

They're basically following the industry standard here.

[vandalhooch]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 December 2016 - 05:43 PM, said:

Why does that matter, tinfoilers are going to say things about that regardless. Tinfoilers shouldn't be the thing stopping a better idea.

Not convinced it is a better idea. It's not a terrible idea but I don't think you'll see players use it very often. I mean, how many players currently use GXP to instant master their mechs? And that doesn't cost them real money.

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Yes, but that is 10x the time it would take with that mech, which is absurd. Going from something like 4 matches to 40 matches in the time it takes to recoop that XP lost is absolutely ridiculous.

You were going to play those 40 matches in other mechs anyway! You aren't grinding the non-played mech, you are playing other mechs.

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Then why even try to hedge a "microtransaction" in there? Unless they are trying to enact the Office Space sort of plan in the hopes that we do this so much that it adds up, which is still a bit shady imo.

What's shady about it? It's a convenience that some will be willing to pay and others won't. The fact that the non-payers have an equally viable alternative makes it the least shady kind of micro-transaction.

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With a bit more customization thanks to the skill tree you will likely see a bit more than you would before because duplicates have more of a use granted you would still have to use XP to grind that out so meh.

Are you going to have three duplicates of every mech you use? That's the only way to have the duplicate mech total match the three-mech rule total.

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Depends on the mech, if it is one I'm testing/experimenting with, then I probably don't have the XP just laying around on it and I'm likely to change the build and or respec it often during that time period.

GXP, plus you will be playing this mech between respecs, right? You will be earning Mech XP. Plus, you can respec individual nodes.

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To me this is the problem, the experimentation is done often before you've played it heavily so putting a limiter on that period really seems odd and counter-intuitive.

More odd than having to search through your garage to find the particular weapon module you want for each experiment? More odd than accumulating massive amounts of GXP over time that has absolutely no purpose what-so-ever? More odd than spending MC to convert Mech XP, that has no purpose, into GXP, that also has no purpose?

I like the sound of the new system better already. It can still end up being a mess and not working but I'm willing to give it a shot.

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I don't have GXP just laying around, something you and many other forget is that comp players aren't just comp players.

What in the world did you spend it on?

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I wouldn't say I'm a lore fanatic but I'm decently familiar with lore, I also happen to be a collector and a bit of a masochist with 332 mechs mastered currently (I've fallen behind due to burnout after the WC). We do have other aspects to our habits than solely comp.

What does that have to do with how much GXP you have on hand? You telling me you spent all of your GXP in mastering all those mechs? Sounds like you don't want the new system because you're about to pay the price for being impatient. I'm not crying any tears over a predicament you created yourself.

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Sure I'll have enough to respec all my mechs, but not enough to support duplicates without sacrificing part of my collection or support full respecs at a later date on everything.

Are you planning on repeatedly respeccing every single one of those mechs? Is everyone of those 332 mechs in your possible comp lineup? Are you planning on doing all this tweaking without doing any matches in between?

I can't seem to drum up a whole lot of sympathy for a player whose situation is an extreme outlier from most others and who wants the new system to cater to their extreme outlier situation instead of what's best for the player base at large.

[Wintersdark]

Davegt27, on 08 December 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

well I have already ground my Mechs do I have to go through the process again or can I opt out?

your right I don't understand how leveling works in other games
as this is not only my first online PC game its my first F2P game

why would you have to go through it again? You get refunded for the XP and such you've spent, and the cost to level a mech is the same, so you can just set it up with the new system and lose nothing.

What's more, I'm sure you've earned XP since mastering those mechs, so you can use that XP to respec (this = changing the quirks on your mechs as you choose) freely and with no additional grinding.

[Wintersdark]

Nightmare1, on 08 December 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

Yes, this has a free respec option - you can respec for C-bills, which you can acquire for free. Acting as if you can only respec using MC is to blatantly ignore this fact.

Not even for cbills, it's fully free to remove skills. Though some skills have a cbill cost in addition to an XP cost (the module replacements presumably) which of course isn't refunded if you go free respec.

But yeah, removing skills is completely free.

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...I don't think that I've ever seen so much knee-jerk panic at a gaming announcement as this one.

This is the MWO community. There's ALWAYS ridiculous overreaction, usually powered by a few folks who totally misunderstand how the system works in the first place, and before we've got any concrete details (must assume the worst, no matter how completely unreasonable!)

Edited by Wintersdark, 08 December 2016 - 06:32 PM.

[Nightmare1]

Davegt27, on 08 December 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

well I have already ground my Mechs do I have to go through the process again or can I opt out?

your right I don't understand how leveling works in other games
as this is not only my first online PC game its my first F2P game

Oh, well then in that case, let me explain real quick:

If your Mechs are already ground out, then PGI will refund your XP at a 1:1 ratio. C-bills and XP from modules will also be refunded at a 1:1 ratio. You can then use this XP to level your Mechs using the new system, so you won't need to actually grind them all out again. The XP you've already invested will just be given back to you to respend in a way that you see fit. Just go slowly and carefully as you level. You may even want to consult other players here on the forums to help you avoid mistakes.

If you're concerned, you can also take screenshots of your Mechs' quirks before the new system hits the game. For example, let's say that you want to remember that Mech A has +10 armor for the CT, and +8 armor for each side torso, among its other quirks. Just take a quick screenshot and then refer back to it when it comes time to level your Mechs anew. Start with those quirks which you valued the most, level them to get those quirks back, and then spend the remaining points how you like. For example, if you don't like the AC/20 cooldown quick on the HBK-4G, you could level it to have a ML quirk instead (not recommending this, just using it as an example).

Most online F2P games that have leveling systems have this kind of an arrangement. In fact, here's a video demonstrating one of them:




As you can see, there are multiple skill types with parent and child nodes which can be unlocked. Some are synergistic while others are standalone. This is actually pretty standard. Vindictus and The Old Republic are two other games that use similar systems.

What's common, is that the devs will normally charge players to respec their character/Mech/equipment/etc. However, PGI is proposing to have two systems, one that charges RL money as is the norm, and one that allows us to do it for free, albeit with extra grinding. The proposal to let us do it for free is actually a big deal, and very beneficial, in my opinion.

Wintersdark, on 08 December 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

Not even for cbills, it's fully free to remove skills. Though some skills have a cbill cost in addition to an XP cost (the module replacements presumably) which of course isn't refunded if you go free respec.

But yeah, removing skills is completely free.

That's even better than what I had understood it to be then. Sweet!

Wintersdark, on 08 December 2016 - 06:32 PM, said:

This is the MWO community. There's ALWAYS ridiculous overreaction, usually powered by a few folks who totally misunderstand how the system works in the first place, and before we've got any concrete details (must assume the worst, no matter how completely unreasonable!)

I know. Every time this happens, I kick myself for forgetting how tumultuously emotional people can get. It's like half of them didn't even bother to read all the info. They just read, "Incoming!" and started yelling while digging foxholes.

[Wintersdark]

Nightmare1, on 08 December 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

What's common, is that the devs will normally charge players to respec their character/Mech/equipment/etc. However, PGI is proposing to have two systems, one that charges RL money as is the norm, and one that allows us to do it for free, albeit with extra grinding. The proposal to let us do it for free is actually a big deal, and very beneficial, in my opinion.

What I like is that the free option is using currency that we already earn but cannot use (without blowing all kind's of money): XP after you master a mech. Now, you can respec for free and use that otherwise useless XP to change your mech in ways you can't change it now. No longer are you a slave to PGI's quirks!

[Pjwned]

Wintersdark, on 08 December 2016 - 06:23 PM, said:

I wasn't speaking to this game in particular but in the MMO community overall. Even shooters with some level of progression tend to do better overall. Back in the day, adding XP and **** to CoD was a major part of what really catapulted it forward.

They're basically following the industry standard here.

The progression in games like Call of Duty is different, you just unlock more options for your loadout rather than objective advantages over everybody else.

If the skill tree in MWO was more like Call of Duty then I wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with it; not that I even like Call of Duty or its relatively recent obsession with unlocks but it's a damn sight better than what we have now in MWO and it's still better than what we will have.

It's also dumb to compare MWO to other more standard MMO(RPG)s because there are a lot of reasons that skill trees and such work better (compared to MWO at the very least) in other games, and even then there are some pretty low quality games that are made worse by being bogged down with excessive grind which often comes in the form of some "skill tree."

Edited by Pjwned, 08 December 2016 - 06:58 PM.

[Deathlike]

vandalhooch, on 07 December 2016 - 10:25 PM, said:

"Unending grind" is called playing the dang game! You spec out your mech. You like it and keep playing it. You accumulate more Mech XP and GXP. When you decide to respec, was all that playing of the maxed mech "grinding?"

BTW: If you spend your time playing in other mechs you are still earning GXP that can be used to respec a mech you haven't been playing! GXP now has a real purpose! Yeah!

GXP grows at an astronomically slow rate... at 1/20 (or 5%) of what you get in XP. The best use of that GXP is used for mech modules like Seismic or Radar Derp or upgrading the consumables you regularly use. For the new player... spending GXP on your own mech is pointless endeavor unless you want that grind passed by.

I already have 1m GXP with zero conversion... and it's not like I really need that much more... particular for the regular mechs I use anyways (gathering 1m XP there is easier), but not on every variant... and that's insane as it already is.

Nightmare1, on 08 December 2016 - 06:12 PM, said:

It's not supposed to take any longer to grind than it already does. Frankly, I don't think that the current grind to level a Mech is bad at all.

Since you say you don't understand how leveling works in other games, I assume this is your first experience with something like this. PGI's proposed level system for Mechs is actually very similar to what's used in other games across the industry. The only difference is that PGI actually lets people respec for free using their C-bills.

The free option actually prevents gating, fyi.

It's gating.

While PGI has had placeholder values, getting 10k XP for stuff is akin to 1/5 of what you require to get a mech mastered (although, it's actually a bit more, due to needing to get 2 other mechs out of basic in the current setup).

Assuming people get 1K XP on average (assuming no XP bonuses), it will take 10 matches to acquire that. This is approximately 2 hours worth of time.

You have to considering how much time it will take for the newer player to get all that XP (and new players are less likely to accumulate the C-bills or XP at a decent rate), and while we take our current skill tree for granted (at least a little)... extra grinding is really that... extra grinding.

I've seen better F2P... that's for sure.

[Johnny Z]

Nightmare1, on 08 December 2016 - 06:19 PM, said:

Yes, this has a free respec option - you can respec for C-bills, which you can acquire for free. Acting as if you can only respec using MC is to blatantly ignore this fact.

STO has a very long grind to level characters, and it's clunkier than MWO to switch between species and classes.

Basically, PGI is giving us a leveling system for which we've been begging them for years. They're basing it off of other, similar leveling systems that you can find all across the gaming industry. PGI is giving us the option to respec for free, something not normally done, as a bonus.

...And you're going to grip just because you can, lol. Relax, this is a good thing!

Lastly, you keep saying, "bro." I do not think the word means, what you think it means. You an I aren't related, so try ending your sentences with a different word instead. Also, work on your grammar and spacing. Both are horrible.



I didn't need agility quirks on my LCT before the quirkening, and I doubt that I'll need them now, lol.

Basically, you're viewing this from the perspective that people will have a hard time figuring out how to level their Mech to achieve the perfect meta-ness. I look at it from the perspective that now everyone will be able to have an awful lot of variety. MetaMechs, Smurfy, or whatever will take care of the people who can't figure it out on their own. The rest of us will kit out our Mechs to run them how we want them, and then go have fun doing it.

...I don't think that I've ever seen so much knee-jerk panic at a gaming announcement as this one.

Last I seen STO largest ship tier is all pay to play. F2P can only get ships the next tier down. So F2P never have ships as strong as pay to play.

Edited by Johnny Z, 08 December 2016 - 07:24 PM.

[Quicksilver Aberration]

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

Not convinced it is a better idea. It's not a terrible idea but I don't think you'll see players use it very often. I mean, how many players currently use GXP to instant master their mechs? And that doesn't cost them real money.

I use it all the time because I'm a horrible whale, and I know I'm not the only person that uses GXP to instant master mechs (or at least get them past the most painful parts) within my unit. Now how often that is outside of units like mine, I have no clue but I'm pretty sure in my former casual unit people did this (granted it was somewhat full of whales as well).

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

You were going to play those 40 matches in other mechs anyway!

Not in that order though, which is an important factor. I have to wait 40 matches to get to what I was intending to do, that's a serious inconvenience when talking about experimentation (which is one of the joys of having customization in the first place).

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

What's shady about it? It's a convenience that some will be willing to pay and others won't.

Because it doesn't have to be there, convenience that skips initial grinding, that's great, but when they are adding some sort of inconvenience just to get you to pay money to skip it, that's when it is shady.

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

Are you going to have three duplicates of every mech you use? That's the only way to have the duplicate mech total match the three-mech rule total.

I might have duplicates on top of those other ones, but that is just because I'm a collector, but I know I had quite a few duplicates of some of the versatile mechs on the Tourney client where money was no obstacle. I might've had 4-6 KDK-3s and probably could've easily had 5+ HBK-IIC-As.

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

GXP, plus you will be playing this mech between respecs, right?

The point is I shouldn't have to play games in-between respecs, if I feel so inclined that I play one and immediately regret my decision, I shouldn't have to be punished by having to grind with it to recoop enough XP to respec it all over again, that's silly.

vandalhooch, on 08 December 2016 - 06:24 PM, said:

What does that have to do with how much GXP you have on hand? You telling me you spent all of your GXP in mastering all those mechs? Sounds like you don't want the new system because you're about to pay the price for being impatient. I'm not crying any tears over a predicament you created yourself.

I can't seem to drum up a whole lot of sympathy for a player whose situation is an extreme outlier from most others and who wants the new system to cater to their extreme outlier situation instead of what's best for the player base at large.

You misunderstand, I should be in the best situation out of most simply because I have so much XP sitting around, if I'm running into this problem, I guarantee this will hamper NPE. Not to mention, with this game's business model being so centered around selling new mechs and mechbays rather than cosmetics (because their cosmetics are weirdly setup in many cases), they should be trying to get as many as possible to be turned into collectors. Anything that hampers collectors runs counter-intuitive to that plan, and this is exactly that.

[Pjwned]

Nightmare1, on 08 December 2016 - 06:35 PM, said:

What's common, is that the devs will normally charge players to respec their character/Mech/equipment/etc. However, PGI is proposing to have two systems, one that charges RL money as is the norm, and one that allows us to do it for free, albeit with extra grinding. The proposal to let us do it for free is actually a big deal, and very beneficial, in my opinion.

It's actually not that big of a deal to not ream players as hard as possible by forcing them to spend real money if they want to respec, regardless of what other doucher developers do with their games. I will also say that players who buy into that crap (in any game) are massive chumps and their garbage standards don't reflect the standards of people who aren't massive chumps.

What do you think would happen if players were told they either have to pay money or start over entirely with a new mech just because they want to change some skills for the mech they already invested in? They would freak out and quit in droves, especially since the game has been in shambles for a long time due to PGI's incompetence.

When I say I'm happy enough to see a c-bill option for respecs, what I'm actually saying is that I'm happy PGI aren't so braindead *****ed as to do something so stupid that would make players quit en masse, which might not be the case if most players had much good will left in PGI but they don't, and apparently PGI realizes that.

Edited by Pjwned, 08 December 2016 - 07:34 PM.

[Wintersdark]

Deathlike, on 08 December 2016 - 07:08 PM, said:

It's gating.

While PGI has had placeholder values, getting 10k XP for stuff is akin to 1/5 of what you require to get a mech mastered (although, it's actually a bit more, due to needing to get 2 other mechs out of basic in the current setup).

Assuming people get 1K XP on average (assuming no XP bonuses), it will take 10 matches to acquire that. This is approximately 2 hours worth of time.

You have to considering how much time it will take for the newer player to get all that XP (and new players are less likely to accumulate the C-bills or XP at a decent rate), and while we take our current skill tree for granted (at least a little)... extra grinding is really that... extra grinding.

I've seen better F2P... that's for sure.

... Russ clearly said a mastery in the new system will take as much time as it does currently. So, worrying about 10 matches per skill is unnecessary.

Why do you feel there will be extra grinding, then?

[Wintersdark]

Pjwned, on 08 December 2016 - 07:32 PM, said:

It's actually not that big of a deal to not ream players as hard as possible by forcing them to spend real money if they want to respec, regardless of what other doucher developers do with their games. I will also say that players who buy into that crap (in any game) are massive chumps and their garbage standards don't reflect the standards of people who aren't massive chumps.

What do you think would happen if players were told they either have to pay money or start over entirely with a new mech just because they want to change some skills for the mech they already invested in? They would freak out and quit in droves, especially since the game has been in shambles for a long time due to PGI's incompetence.

When I say I'm happy enough to see a c-bill option for respecs, what I'm actually saying is that I'm happy PGI aren't so braindead *****ed as to do something so stupid that would make players quit en masse, which might not be the case if most players had much good will left in PGI but they don't, and apparently PGI realizes that.

Why's don't really matter. We get truly free (not cbill) respec options as well as paid ones that refund costs... So, that's a good thing. If we didn't, I'd be screaming too.... But that's not the case.

Sure, I'd love if the respec was free AND refunded spent XP, but I feel this is a very reasonable microtransaction point. It maintains time or money, and choosing to only rarely respec will ensure its both free in terms of Mc AND uses otherwise worthless MC

[vandalhooch]

Quicksilver Kalasa, on 08 December 2016 - 07:29 PM, said:

I use it all the time because I'm a horrible whale, and I know I'm not the only person that uses GXP to instant master mechs (or at least get them past the most painful parts) within my unit. Now how often that is outside of units like mine, I have no clue but I'm pretty sure in my former casual unit people did this (granted it was somewhat full of whales as well).

Impatience. Not going to have any sympathy for someone who has no patience.

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Not in that order though, which is an important factor. I have to wait 40 matches to get to what I was intending to do, that's a serious inconvenience when talking about experimentation (which is one of the joys of having customization in the first place).

You have to wait matches because you were impatient and spent your GXP instead of playing through the mastery. No sympathy from me and I'm not going to advocate for a system that caters to impatient players. You want your cake and to eat it too. Tough.

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Because it doesn't have to be there, convenience that skips initial grinding, that's great, but when they are adding some sort of inconvenience just to get you to pay money to skip it, that's when it is shady.

It's only inconvenient for you because you had no patience in the past. It's not inconvenient for everyone.

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I might have duplicates on top of those other ones, but that is just because I'm a collector, but I know I had quite a few duplicates of some of the versatile mechs on the Tourney client where money was no obstacle. I might've had 4-6 KDK-3s and probably could've easily had 5+ HBK-IIC-As.

You describing the player base at large or just yourself? You think the general populace is going to pony up the C-bills for 4-6 Kodiaks?

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The point is I shouldn't have to play games in-between respecs, if I feel so inclined that I play one and immediately regret my decision, I shouldn't have to be punished by having to grind with it to recoop enough XP to respec it all over again, that's silly.

You were impatient and now you have to wait. No sympathy from me.

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You misunderstand, I should be in the best situation out of most simply because I have so much XP sitting around, if I'm running into this problem, I guarantee this will hamper NPE.

Spend your MC to convert some of it to GXP. You know, that thing you wanted them to implement. A system where you can spend MC to instantly master a mech. Oh, wait. It will already exist.

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Not to mention, with this game's business model being so centered around selling new mechs and mechbays rather than cosmetics (because their cosmetics are weirdly setup in many cases), they should be trying to get as many as possible to be turned into collectors.

Are you claiming you have access to PGI's accounting books?

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Anything that hampers collectors runs counter-intuitive to that plan, and this is exactly that.

Maybe. And maybe people who collect through C-bills have little affect on PGI's bottom line. I don't know and neither do you.