283 replies to this topic

[QuantumButler]

Bush Hopper, on 07 December 2016 - 07:51 AM, said:

Russ tweeted "This means you can reset for free ( C-bills ) but lose the node points. Or use MC to keep the node points."

Does that mean that if you use CBs to reset skills, you lose the points (and thus the experience)?

I read it as saying you lose the XP you spent but keep any you did not spend, so there is a point to playing a mech you have maxed out beyond just enjoying it, as the XP you earn in it will be banked for future respecs.

[Angel of Annihilation]

TheLuc, on 07 December 2016 - 03:54 AM, said:

Quirks should stay as for flavor and help the under performer.

a copy paste from an other thread,

The only thing we can ask for in MWO is Mechs, when players ask for features it always turns out for the worst with PGI. Current Skill tree is more a Mechanical Optimization tree and the new one is more in the line of Adjustments.

Its clear that some trees will be mandatory like the Operation and Survival

With 75 nods only, just the Operation section to get same cooling performance as now or slightly better is 21 nods of 75 so 54 nods left. In the Survival section will cost 10 Nods for maximum Armor and Structure bonus which the values seem quite lower than the quirks we got at the moment, this means the Summoner, Cataphract, Orion, Atlas and others will feel like paper again. Left with 44 nods, the Mobility Section is divided in 2 sub-section, upper and lower chassis. Upper chassis section is 24 Nods for maximum bonuses in torso twisting and arms aiming. Some Mechs that have no use of arms except as shields its a loss of 9 Nods right there to get maximum torso bonus. Lower chassis will cost 20 nods to get Speed Tweak at same value we currently have with half of chosen nods the player may not actually want.

No nods left, no weapon nods been yet chosen, no radar deprivation and no seismic sensors. Current Skill tree give access to all bonuses, you get the modules you want and you play different variants of the Mech chosen to spice things up. In the end the current system offers way more than what they offer.

Yeah this is what I was kind of wondering about myself but didn't feel I had enough info to really make a judgement but it just didn't look like there was enough points to actually recreate what we already had let alone really customize your mech. I mean my PHX-2 which is my favorite mech has 60% to movement, 50% to twist, Energy range and a crapton of structure and armor buffs as stock quirks, all the minimum requirement to make it competitive. That got me wondering just how much point investment will there be to just get the quirks back let alone adding in the buffs I get from modules such as LL range, ML Range, Advanced Seismic and Info Target Gathering. Then I have to ask will there be enough left over to actually customize it buy choosing the new JJ skills?

Another concern I have is the placement of skills. They are a tree after all which means you have to buy the preceding skill before you by the next skill. From what I saw in the video something like getting Advanced Seismic might require to you spend something like 8 or 9 points in the skill tree on things you might not need or want rather than just spending points on Advanced Seismic. This will further limit the ability to customize your mech they way you want because your going to under up with a bunch of potentially unwanted fluff or filler while trying to get the skills you do want.

Unfortunately the whole system is a big Clusterflock and so far I can't see it improving anything.

[QuantumButler]

Lostdragon, on 07 December 2016 - 08:38 AM, said:

I suggested in the past that they move to a pilot based system where you can have multiple pilots with their own skill trees. One might be specced for brawling, one for long range, one for scouting/support, etc. I also suggested a MC cost to respec these, however an MC cost to respec a mech to avoid losing the XP already invested is much less desirable. I like to play my (I) variants when I can for the Cbill boost, so I reconfigure their loadouts a lot. If I can't optimize the skills when I do this it will take a lot of fun out of the game when I want to experiment with or tweak several configurations.

If the MC cost to respec is very low it might not be so bad, but PGI is not known for their reasonable pricing schemes. Unlimited free respecs with Premium time would add a ton of value to PT though, which is something it needs.

Keep in mind maxing out a mech is said to take about as long as it currently does, so a couple to a few hours depending on your performance in it to raise it back up when using cbills to respec: Currently that's 57250 XP to get one mech completely maxed, including the master module slot.

A lot of my mastered mechs have far far more XP banked on them already than that, and if you play a given machine a lot you will end up having tons of surplus XP too.

*IF* the grind is equivlent to now, as they say, and assuming Cbill respeccing doesn't consume unspent XP on a variant [no guarantee it won't...] it shouldn't be a big issue, and if unspent XP is consumed, then, well.

That's Bull****.

Edited by QuantumButler, 07 December 2016 - 08:53 AM.

[Tordin]

Happy about the info! And good stuff to know.
They "seem" to have serious thoughts about the new skill system and are open to change and adjust to make every mech as viable as possible. They cant do the opposite, they surely will know a riot will be in the brewer then...

Edited by Tordin, 07 December 2016 - 09:18 AM.

[Lostdragon]

QuantumButler, on 07 December 2016 - 08:50 AM, said:

Keep in mind maxing out a mech is said to take about as long as it currently does, so a couple to a few hours depending on your performance in it to raise it back up when using cbills to respec: Currently that's 57250 XP to get one mech completely maxed, including the master module slot.

A lot of my mastered mechs have far far more XP banked on them already than that, and if you play a given machine a lot you will end up having tons of surplus XP too.

*IF* the grind is equivlent to now, as they say, and assuming Cbill respeccing doesn't consume unspent XP on a variant [no guarantee it won't...] it shouldn't be a big issue, and if unspent XP is consumed, then, well.

That's Bull****.

Sure it won't be that bad on mechs that have tons of unused XP, but over the years I have converted a lot of useless XP to GXP to expedite mastering other mechs. I probably have accumulated over a million XP on my DWF Prime but I don't have a tenth of that on it now, so after I respec 2-3 times I will have to either pay MC or grind if I want to rebuild around different weapons. That will probably discourage me from eperimenting as much as I like.

This problem will be exacerbated on new mechs. I often try 10+ builds on a newly mastered mech before I find 2 or 3 that I really like. If I have to respec a mech 6 or 8 times (some builds may be able to use the same spec) and pay MC every time that could get really expensive depending on the pricing. I am damn sure not going to regrind it, and I would probably just not play at all if optimizing mechs gets to the point where it is costing as much as the initial purchase of the mech pack.

Edited by Lostdragon, 07 December 2016 - 09:31 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

GabrielSun, on 07 December 2016 - 08:41 AM, said:

Why the hell would I follow any twitters? I have a forum account.

I know right. Pretty fricken sad that I have to go to Twitter or Reddit to actually get information from the developers. I mean you would thing that the "Official" forums would be the best source of info but nope.

On the other hand it is all our fault or at least the founders fault as when Russ informed us we were "all on an island" and that "Founders didn't matter" we all sort of chased him off the forums with pitchforks and torches. For a time Russ was the most hated man in the world on these forums.

[cazidin]

I've a few questions.

1.When do we get this new skill tree?
2.How many complaint threads will there likely be the day of, and following its release?
3.Why is this per chassis, rather than per pilot with say, alternate trees to swap back and forth?
4.It seems that I was correct about limiting the number of skills that you can unlock. Okay, so, what can we REALLY do with this? Is there a spreadsheet somewhere that I can play around with?
5.Why is all the rum gone?

[Barantor]

So I asked a question on twitter to Russ and got an answer.

Quote

Barantor ‏Barantor 2h
2 hours ago
@russ_bullock Seems there is an assumption that if you respec you have to delete all skill nodes, not just some is this correct?

Quote

Russ Bullock russ_bullock 55m
55 minutes ago
@Barantor can do one node at a time if you want - but it will include all children of that node of course

So there you have it, you can delete a few skills you don't want without deleting everything.

So if one node is only like 500xp, then you aren't out too much if you only need to rearrange a few skills.

Edited by Barantor, 07 December 2016 - 11:43 AM.

[TheLuc]

Cazidin,

1. I hope never but apparently will be on the test server first

2. complaints will flood as soon as players realize that we get less even if it more fexible

3. same tree per chassis and its more mechanical adjustments than the actual skill of the pilot

4. Its to ensure that we cant get it all to so call balance but since its PGI prepare for less performance with your Mechs

5. Rum is gone ??? its maybe those guys,

[Barantor]

cazidin, on 07 December 2016 - 11:30 AM, said:

I've a few questions.

1.When do we get this new skill tree?
2.How many complaint threads will there likely be the day of, and following its release?
3.Why is this per chassis, rather than per pilot with say, alternate trees to swap back and forth?
4.It seems that I was correct about limiting the number of skills that you can unlock. Okay, so, what can we REALLY do with this? Is there a spreadsheet somewhere that I can play around with?
5.Why is all the rum gone?

1. They are saying first quarter. I hope they do it well.

2. Too many to count most likely, given the amount on the rescales.

3. It's actually per mech, so if you have two JR7-D Jenners you can have one skilled for small pulse and the other skilled for medium lasers. Most of the skills seem geared toward the build of the mech, not the pilot.

4. No real info out yet. They want to put it on the PTS server first so we will see it's first iteration there. I'm sure someone will make a site where you can plot out what you want.

5. Because you drank it.

[C E Dwyer]

BLOOD WOLF, on 06 December 2016 - 02:53 PM, said:

THANK goodness there are people here that do stuff like this. Thank you for those bits of information.

That summary was needed.

True, but it might have been better for P.G.I to get their **** together and have the full details on how it works and ready to post them here before saying, hey guys we have this new thing, and not then spend the next week or two scrambling to get the thing together, and trying to defuse rage posts, but then..

P.G.I

Edited by Cathy, 07 December 2016 - 12:15 PM.

[Barantor]

Cathy, on 07 December 2016 - 12:15 PM, said:

True, but it might have been better for P.G.I to get their **** together and have the full details on how it works and ready to post them here before saying, hey guys we have this new thing, and not then spend the next week or two scrambling to get the thing together, and trying to defuse rage posts, but then..

P.G.I

They don't even have it ready for PTS yet, so they are still ironing out a few details themselves. I don't need all the information so long as it isn't coming out tomorrow.

They said they want to dump a load of information on us after next weeks patch and are working on it. It's not like we're going to be using this skill system before the new year and probably not till March.

[WarHippy]

Barantor, on 07 December 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

So I asked a question on twitter to Russ and got an answer.







So there you have it, you can delete a few skills you don't want without deleting everything.

So if one node is only like 500xp, then you aren't out too much if you only need to rearrange a few skills.

Unless that one node that only costs 500xp is early in the tree then you have to redo all of the others below it as well according to what he said. Its certainly a better system than a full reset, but I still have a big problem with losing time/money already spent unless you pay extra real money.

[Stonekeg]

Viktor Drake, on 06 December 2016 - 03:42 PM, said:

On the other hand, they might very well have intended to go with the system they showed at Mechcon but due to the tremendous negative backlash, they are now backpedaling and telling it it won't be that bad. Seriously, I know alot of people complain about people complaining but negative feedback can be a very powerful tool.

Now honestly who knows the truth, but I would rather complain about something that concerns me than remain silent and "trust" that all will be well in the end.

Placeholder values are a very normal thing, and there's no reason to believe they lied or danced around that. In fact, it's pretty normal to have bloated placeholder values just to start testing at one extremity and then reel it back for balance.

[Nightmare1]

LordNothing, on 06 December 2016 - 10:01 PM, said:

is it entitled to close your wallet when you feel you are getting shafted? if yes then damn right im entitled. i am entitled to the right to decide who i do buisness with, and have decided that it will not be pgi. what is this some kind of slave state where you dont get to decide where the fruits of your labor go?

when i started playing this game the jury was out on this free to play model. now they have come back and declared it a scam, and it is a buisness model i will no longer support with my dollar in the future. especially if this is one of the better ones. i payed into this game because at the time i felt it was fair. however that fair period was just the foot in the door, and its just a money vacuum from here on out.

Wow, you're really bitter over something that's pretty common place. Have you ever played another online game before? All the ones I've played to date only let you respec for RL dollars. MWO is the only one I can think of that gives you a way to do it for free. That's actually something that's pretty cool.

By the way, no one's twisting your arm to force you to do business with PGI. We're all just marveling at your rabidly wild accusations and rage posts. If you're this upset by a mere announcement, then you'll probably be really unhinged once they get around to making a full post!

Whatever though. Here, take this tinfoil hat, go over there, sit in the corner, and gnash your teeth away from the rest of us that are actually looking forward to this incoming addition to the game.

[Nightmare1]

El Bandito, on 06 December 2016 - 08:12 PM, said:

Not a little longer, a lot longer. Since every SP you invested in the tree will be gone if you do not pay MC.

Hmm...from what I'm seeing, it's projected to take roughly the same amount of time to level a Mech under the new system, as under the old system. That doesn't seem like, "A lot longer," to me.

That being said, PGI's model seems more than fair to me. The industry standard, based on my experiences, is to paywall the respec. At least this provides a free method of respec'ing. That's cool.

On top of all that, how many people are really going to ruin their Mechs while leveling though? I mean, let's get real. Everyone's GXP and C-bills will be refunded 1:1, right? Most people with any real amount of these resources accumulated will be experienced enough to know how to spec out their Mechs to fit their desires. Only the noobs will have trouble, which won't be anything unusual in online gaming.

Overall, I see this as a much-needed and welcome feature that many in the community have been begging for since Beta. It's about time PGI finally got around to adding it!

N0MAD, on 06 December 2016 - 07:31 PM, said:

Well brother its your opinion about the grind factor in this game being the less of most games, you are entitle to your opinion.
Now i will put my view on why i disagree with this..try keep it short, my example is World of Warships which is currently taking most of my gaming time.
While both games MWO, WoWs follow a similar progression in grind with vehicles and Pilot skill trees, in wows as i lvl ships im taken up a Tech tree where each ship is a beter tier ship, what this means is that with each lvl im fighting beter hardware making each tier a tougher more competitive experience, in MWO this is not so i can buy the highest tier mech so to speak as my first mech i have no challenge left.
Also as i get into higher lvl tech in WoWs my Tier Buckets increase, im playing people with a lot more time experience therefore more challenging, not in MWO, grinding a new mech doesnt mean im playing more experienced people i can and will be playing people with way way less experience/Tech than myself, getting that Lvl 8 BB in WoWs means im not playing some poor seal in his lvl 3 BB. Ya Ya we have tiers in MWO but as shown in Threads on this forum Tier 1s and Tier2s will play Tier4s and posibly 5s depending on pop lvls and release valves.
Also as i lvl in WoWs altho im expected to to earn more and more xp and money to unlock and buy the next ship im earning more xp and money in the higher tiers, where as in a tier 3 BB in a good game im getting say 6-700xp and say 50k money in a tier 8 game for a decent game im getting 2k xp and 150k money and again im getting much beter quality games against beter quality opponents and tech.
Im also getting different maps game modes as i tier up.
Another big difference is that i can tier up ships that have profoundly different playstyles/roles, a DD is a very different vehicle to play both in playstyle and role, and im rewarded in for those roles, in MWO damage is the main deciding factor for your reward, so lights/med etc are all out to do the same thing cause damage, or basically the same role.
Look i can go on and on about the difference grind means in different games, in MWO i find that its the same grind over and over with litle to look forward to after the grind, you play the same people on the same maps for the same reward no mater what mech you grind for next.
This is my experience and my opinion, you are entitle to yours, but dont tell me MWO has the best grind mechanic of any game, i simply do not agree.

Paywalls..i will leave this with you, interesting read..
http://www.gamesbrie...-gamesbriefers/

Also conformation Respec will cost MC unless you want to lose your SP.

^That text above is known as a "text-wall," and is very unpleasant to try to read. Please try to use this nifty thing we call "spacing" and "grammar" if you want me to actually take the time to read your post. This one has been rejected out of hand; I'm not going to make an effort to decipher this gibberish when you can't be bothered to make an effort to craft a half-way decent post.

[Nightmare1]

Dahrsis, on 07 December 2016 - 01:29 AM, said:

Did you really haven´t thought about the respec option before? Or did you just assumed it was without any cost involved?

I've been one of those asking for a skill tree. Honestly, I never expected PGI to give us a respec option; this is actually a very welcome surprise to me! The fact that you can respec for free is particularly exciting!

I can't count the number of games I've played where I couldn't respec at all, or could only do so by spending RL money. That was immensely annoying. I see this skill tree, and the respec option, as steps in the right direction.

Barantor, on 07 December 2016 - 11:41 AM, said:

So I asked a question on twitter to Russ and got an answer.







So there you have it, you can delete a few skills you don't want without deleting everything.

So if one node is only like 500xp, then you aren't out too much if you only need to rearrange a few skills.

That's actually pretty reasonable. Thanks for posting!

[El Bandito]

Nightmare1, on 07 December 2016 - 05:46 PM, said:

Hmm...from what I'm seeing, it's projected to take roughly the same amount of time to level a Mech under the new system, as under the old system. That doesn't seem like, "A lot longer," to me.

That being said, PGI's model seems more than fair to me. The industry standard, based on my experiences, is to paywall the respec. At least this provides a free method of respec'ing. That's cool.

That may not be such a big deal for vets with millions of XP and C-Bills refunded, but what about newbies? They are already paywalled by mechbays. Any decent F2P game makes it easier for newbies to get used to the system, not the other way around.

[Nightmare1]

El Bandito, on 07 December 2016 - 06:11 PM, said:

That may not be such a big deal for vets with millions of XP and C-Bills refunded, but what about newbies? They are already paywalled by mechbays. Any decent F2P game makes it easier for newbies to get used to the system, not the other way around.

I was a newbie back in the days of R&R. You want to talk tough on newbies? Now that was tough!

As for this, I don't see it being a problem for newbies who are half-way intelligent. Only people who have never gamed before, or are just plain stupid, would start haphazardly assigning leveling points. There's a lot of resources available in the form of played-created guides, tutorials, and website to help guide people through this game. I'm sure we'll see some player-created leveling help too.

Shoot, I'll be incorporating this new system into my Training Night sessions for my Unit, just to help my newer players with the transition.

Solo puggers who don't do their homework have no grounds to complain. What PGI's doing is no different from the industry standard, except that it appears to be more free-to-play friendly so far.

[El Bandito]

Nightmare1, on 07 December 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

I was a newbie back in the days of R&R. You want to talk tough on newbies? Now that was tough!

Except back then the game was played by Founders, people who actually had immense connection with the game, people who could be pushed around yet stick to the game! Newbies in 2017 are not the same type of people. If they do not like a core aspect of a "completed game", they will leave.

Nightmare1, on 07 December 2016 - 06:16 PM, said:

Solo puggers who don't do their homework have no grounds to complain. What PGI's doing is no different from the industry standard, except that it appears to be more free-to-play friendly so far.

You are basically telling the type of players who comprise the majority of the player base to **** off. If that's PGI's stance as well, then it is their loss.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 December 2016 - 06:36 PM.