97 replies to this topic

[dervishx5]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 07 December 2016 - 12:29 PM, said:

If I played TT for the rule of cool I used mechs. When I wanted to win I took no mechs. Infantry, aero, and conventional vics all day.

I'll agree that the importance of mechs are overplayed in TT, but you still need at least a few. Removing them from your forces is usually a disadvantage.

Edited by dervishx5, 07 December 2016 - 12:50 PM.

[Yellonet]

Brenden, on 06 December 2016 - 08:57 PM, said:

And this is why I don't like Japanese Mecha anime. Nothing seems grounded in realism.

Grounded in realism like BT....?!

Spoiler

Bwaahahahaha looool lolololololoolllll!!!1

[TWIAFU]

Brenden, on 06 December 2016 - 09:06 PM, said:

Legal or not, at least the Spider finally looks good in some form.

Meh, looks like **** to me.

[Dee Eight]

I recommend Gasaraki for folks who want realistic-ish mecha in their anime.

[Adridos]

El Bandito, on 07 December 2016 - 05:41 AM, said:

BT mechs are much more functional looking than that of Macross mechs.

I'll have to disagree here.
Macross is pretty light on realism all things considered but its mech designs range from semi-silly to mediocre-silly (unless you count Battle Macross). BTech in general ranges from semi-silly (after all, the original designs were primarily from Macross or heavily inspired by it) to absolutely ridiculous.
Macross just tends to take a real-ish plane, figure out a way to turn it into a robot (and all of them do) and runs with that.
BTech can't figure out cockpits, half the mechs couldn't even stand up and so on...

If you're in it for realism, Battletech is not the place to look. There are far better Japanese robot franchises for that. Battletech's place is mostly that of mech Mad Max with a side of Dune. That's what's great about it.

[dervishx5]

[zagibu]

Snowbluff, on 06 December 2016 - 10:42 PM, said:

VIDEO

Lol, check 3:49, apparently they are still using DirectX in the far future.

[Brenden]

Mark Nicholson, on 07 December 2016 - 10:07 AM, said:

Yes, Shoji Kawamori is basically the king of good and popular mecha design.

I watched the first 3 episodes of Armored Trooper Votoms last month, and couldn't get into it, which made me sad.

I also did this a couple years ago (it's the panther);

Sweet Jesus man! That actually looks pretty cool.

[AnimeFreak40K]

...you do realize that those designs were done by the same artists who did the original work for Super Dimension Fortress Macross (Studio Nue), right?

The apparent reason was because some of the folks wanted to take some classic/popular American mecha and have their take on those designs.

[Alstren]

Adridos, on 07 December 2016 - 01:39 PM, said:

I'll have to disagree here.
Macross is pretty light on realism all things considered but its mech designs range from semi-silly to mediocre-silly (unless you count Battle Macross). BTech in general ranges from semi-silly (after all, the original designs were primarily from Macross or heavily inspired by it) to absolutely ridiculous.
Macross just tends to take a real-ish plane, figure out a way to turn it into a robot (and all of them do) and runs with that.
BTech can't figure out cockpits, half the mechs couldn't even stand up and so on...

If you're in it for realism, Battletech is not the place to look. There are far better Japanese robot franchises for that. Battletech's place is mostly that of mech Mad Max with a side of Dune. That's what's great about it.

I don't think the proper term is necessarily realism so much as its utilitarianism. Many BT mechs (disclaimer I'am hazy on anything past 3050) look like each part of them serves a purpose and are mass produced for efficiency, As where Japanese mechs (and most Japanese things) in general tend to have a bunch overdesigned spikes and protrusions for no other reason than rule of cool.

Personally I think it stems from the cultural difference of the mindsets of "This is my rifle their are many like it but this is mine" VS "This blade was forged for my family specificy and passed down from generations"



VS

Edited by FirestormClone218, 07 December 2016 - 02:45 PM.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

FirestormClone218, on 07 December 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

Personally I think it stems from the cultural difference of the mindsets of "This is my rifle their are many like it but this is mine" VS "This blade was forged for my family specificy and passed down from generations"

Just look at the way Americans often view guns. To the average gun owner in the US, firearms are simply a tool with a specific purpose. Like my .30-30 is for when I used to hunt deer, my shotguns were for hunting fowl, my .22 was for varminting, and my handgun is for personal defense.

Then look at how the Japanese have viewed their swords and the legendary status they hold in Bushido.

[Adridos]

Saint Scarlett Johan, on 07 December 2016 - 03:22 PM, said:

Just look at the way Americans often view guns. To the average gun owner in the US, firearms are simply a tool with a specific purpose. Like my .30-30 is for when I used to hunt deer, my shotguns were for hunting fowl, my .22 was for varminting, and my handgun is for personal defense.

Then look at how the Japanese have viewed their swords and the legendary status they hold in Bushido.

Japanese viewed. Historically speaking, no matter which country, you will find sword/gun pieces that were a part of family lineage passed down to new generations.

FirestormClone218, on 07 December 2016 - 02:29 PM, said:

Personally I think it stems from the cultural difference of the mindsets of "This is my rifle their are many like it but this is mine" VS "This blade was forged for my family specificy and passed down from generations"

It's not at all like that.
They're not unique because of some weird alien culture. They're unique because they are designed to be toys in children cartoons.
That's why every new Macross has a new Valkyrie design while destroids have largely staid the same over the ages.
Destroids are the non-merch focused ones, hence their weaker visual design.



It's the same as with MLP. You've got the main characters with unique designs and then a billion pieces of merchandise selling their re-colors as different ponies.

Here's an "expendable" from Eureka Seven, also a simple, utilitarian design with no special stuff bolted on top of it.

Savage from FMP:


Any one of these is a lot more utilitarian and less overdesigned than even 90% of Alex's mech designs.
It's not because of some special cultural reasons, it's simply because they are the backgrounders of their respective shows.
If they were too detailed, they'd be hard to draw hence less cool fighting scenes, thus a smaller viewership (or "readership" in FMP's case).

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

Adridos, on 08 December 2016 - 02:09 AM, said:

Japanese viewed. Historically speaking, no matter which country, you will find sword/gun pieces that were a part of family lineage passed down to new generations.

There are numerous societies that swords have no hold in. With the exception of Excalibur of Arthurian Legend the Britsh Isles holds the bow of greater importance. In American society where swords were rare except for some military ceremonial Old World hold-overs, the gun has had greater importance. Korea and Mongolia both revere bows more than swords. In Greece, the spear is more important and in Russia you have the Streltsy armed with guns and bardiches. And in Indian mythos you have literally half a dozen bows: Gandeeva, Sharanga, Vijaya, Pinaka, Kamadeva, Anjalika (technically an arrow).

Then when you take into account the differences in culture between Japan and America's views on war, you see the disparities. In Japan, warfare is highly ritualistic while in the Europe and the Americas warfare is viewed far less ritualistically and is looked at more pragmatically.

Which determines how weapons are viewed in the differing cultures. To me a katana is just a sword, a tool to achieve a means. Same as how I hold a gun, it's a just tool. No different than a saw or a hammer.

On the flipside, to a Japanese man the katana holds something important to them. It's an identity. A way of life, the way of the warrior: Bushido. The Katana is more or less iconography to that part of Japanese identity.

Which you can also see often in the media portrayals between the two countries where in the US many war/fighting movies have their fight scenes almost revolve around the mission and are swift and brutal. Whereas in the Japanese media, fights are often choreographed dances of death.

I'm going to stop rambling now, culture and weapons really pique my interest and I don't have many friends that like to get philosophical about weaponry.

Edited by Saint Scarlett Johan, 08 December 2016 - 02:53 AM.

[Peter2k]

El Bandito, on 06 December 2016 - 08:46 PM, said:

Original designs are too ugly and sluggish for modern Japanese tastes. Form > function.

Don't always be so sure

Maybe if it's games/anime

But real life

[Anjian]

Other great mecha designers.

Masamune Shirow --- Manga artist. Dominion Tank Police, Appleseed, and his best known work, Ghost in the Shell. He is a great character designer as well, and with mechs, one of his specialties are spider tanks. Also known for his erotic art.

[Anjian]

Kunio Okawara --- Designed the first Gundam. I feel his best work comes with Armored Trooper Votoms and Fang of the Sun Dougram.

[Anjian]

One of my favorites. Like Masamune Shirow, Makoto Kobayashi designs with a strong visual style like they're both on acid and having a nightmare.

[Anjian]

Kazuhisa Kondo, also with a strong visual style as if he was mixing acid with his sake.