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Pgi Continuing To Encourage Energy Boat & Energy Vomit Builds


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#1 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 08:48 AM

Read the patch changes, this caught my eye:

Quote

Gauss Rifle
  • Max Range reduced to 1320 (from 1980)
  • Component Health increased to 10 (from 5)

Clan Gauss Rifle
  • Max Range reduced to 1320 (from 1980)
  • Explosion Chance increased to 100% (from 90%)
Which means ERPPC and ERLL are now the undisputed range champions.

With the DPS/T of the gauss rifle so friggin' low, and for Clans the garunteed explosion when crit, and the laughably tiny health of 10, this weapon system is more than likely headed for the scrap heap. The risk-v-reward is almost for a certainty not going to be worth it.

Not when you can pack an ERPPC and 8 heat sinks easily in for the same weight, space, AND the added bonuses of unlimited ammo and no extremely explody weapons equipped.

Congrats PGI, lets homogenize this game even more than it is already!

#2 Davers

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 08:56 AM

Is the additional 10% chance of crit such a huge deal?

#3 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 09:05 AM

View PostDavers, on 10 December 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

Is the additional 10% chance of crit such a huge deal?
It would be if hit detection for ballistics was consistent from moment to moment, but anyone in this game that's fired ANY ballistic (but especially the Gauss and the IS AC/20) knows even though your screen SHOWS you a hit, the server sometimes chooses to 'ignore' it, or call it a miss.

I know this happens to me pretty much AT LEAST once a match.

And TRUST ME, 10% don't buy you much. I've put multiple dual gauss rounds, at 30 points, into already very dark red components, had the game register the hit, show the flash on the paper doll, target reticule turns red, yet SOMEHOW that bugger had +30 points in that bright red area, and continues to fight.

The nice thing about the gauss was, even at the previous maximum range, you still weren't doing much damage, BUT, that loud "THUNK!", and cockpit shake when you hit them at that range encouraged the enemy to keep their heads down and in cover, making laser and ERPPC sniping a lot more risky.

I'm sure this is another gauss change that PGI will roll back after a few months.

I really get the impression PGI doesn't understand the gauss or how it's actually utilized in game.

#4 Lupus Aurelius

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 09:30 AM

View PostDimento Graven, on 10 December 2016 - 08:48 AM, said:


Not when you can pack an ERPPC and 8 heat sinks easily in for the same weight, space, AND the added bonuses of unlimited ammo and no extremely explody weapons equipped.



WRONG. No one in their right mind tries to us single heat sinks on IS mechs with ERPPCs. Which means doubles for IS.

For a Clan erppc with 8 doubles, you are talking 18 crits at 14 tons vs Clan gauss at 6 crits, and lets assume 3 tons ammo, for a total of 9 crits 15 tons.

For IS, erppc with 8 doubles will be 27 crits at 15 tons vs gauss at 7 crits / 15 tons, with 3 tons ammo, that will be 18 crits at 18 tons.

Especially with clan, good luck finding that many crits on omni mechs,


Also, personal comment - SCIENCE FICTION = LAZORS!

#5 Alstren

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 09:40 AM

You do know laser vomit isn't the meta any more right? Its Gauss and ERPPCs that all the munchkins are running now.

#6 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 09:44 AM

View PostLupus Aurelius, on 10 December 2016 - 09:30 AM, said:

WRONG. No one in their right mind tries to us single heat sinks on IS mechs with ERPPCs. Which means doubles for IS.

For a Clan erppc with 8 doubles, you are talking 18 crits at 14 tons vs Clan gauss at 6 crits, and lets assume 3 tons ammo, for a total of 9 crits 15 tons.

For IS, erppc with 8 doubles will be 27 crits at 15 tons vs gauss at 7 crits / 15 tons, with 3 tons ammo, that will be 18 crits at 18 tons.

Especially with clan, good luck finding that many crits on omni mechs,


Also, personal comment - SCIENCE FICTION = LAZORS!
I did account for all that I'm still right as you can drop in any match and still find people boating PPC's and lasers even now.

After this change, you'll just have more of it because now due to range limitations, the 100%/90% chance of 'splosion, the 5.75 second delay between shots, the size and weight of the weapon, it's really not worth equipping.

So we'll see that much more energy weapons and heat sinks (double or otherwise).

View PostFirestormClone218, on 10 December 2016 - 09:40 AM, said:

You do know laser vomit isn't the meta any more right? Its Gauss and ERPPCs that all the munchkins are running now.
Yeah, that's not at all true. Energy vomit is absolutely more present in the game than gauss/combos are, probably by a factor 10 to 1.

#7 Aiden Skye

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 09:49 AM

Don't really care about Goose nerfs. Goose already has too few drawbacks in the long range department.
ERLL has ridiculous burn time. PPC's are slow and hot. Both telegraph your position. Goose is cool, fast, does the most damage, and doesn't draw a straight line to your position.

#8 Lupus Aurelius

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 09:55 AM

And yet, you can fire till the cows some home so long as you have ammo with Gauss and NEVER overheat. Firing 2 ERPPCs, of either faction, good luck getting 3 volleys off without overheating, then you have to hide till you can cool off enough to be able to fire them again. Lasers are a bit better that way, and you can mitigate both by chain firing,

And you are forgetting the most important thing - Gauss speeds are 2000 meters a second, vs 1300 a second on ERPPCs, they still have a huge advantage to hit due to that, at 15 damage a shot, which is higher than ERPPCs.

Add to that, you can snap shots off and drop to cover immediately, vs lasers that you have to expose for huge amounts of face time to keep damage on targets. You are standing with your willy in the breeze for a second at least, 1.5 seconds with Clan ERLL, and having to take damage if you try to get full damage on target.

Whereas every ballistic other than machine guns, you can snap a shot off, torso twist to mitigate damage, or simply drop into cover.

Edited by Lupus Aurelius, 10 December 2016 - 09:56 AM.


#9 Koniving

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 10:05 AM

View PostDavers, on 10 December 2016 - 08:56 AM, said:

Is the additional 10% chance of crit such a huge deal?

View PostDimento Graven, on 10 December 2016 - 09:05 AM, said:

And TRUST ME, 10% don't buy you much. I've put multiple dual gauss rounds, at 30 points, into already very dark red components, had the game register the hit, show the flash on the paper doll, target reticule turns red, yet SOMEHOW that bugger had +30 points in that bright red area, and continues to fight.

That's 10% more likely to explore in your face, aka 100% chance it will go boom when crit for the Clans. With their CASE thing it doesn't matter at all.
More health on the IS version is good.

-------

If you have ignored ballistic issues... perhaps try the solution I did when the game would ignore copious amounts of my SRM and LRM fire that hit?

I chain fired my SRMs and LRMs... and found that when I make consistent hits I nearly double to triple my damage output compared to firing them all at once.
As discussed at the beginning here in this Catapult that has less armor than a stock Locust.


I don't share your issues with ballistics though, even though I often have them for SRMs.

Edited by Koniving, 10 December 2016 - 10:06 AM.


#10 Mcgral18

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 10:12 AM

View PostDimento Graven, on 10 December 2016 - 09:44 AM, said:

Yeah, that's not at all true. Energy vomit is absolutely more present in the game than gauss/combos are, probably by a factor 10 to 1.


In Potato Land and Light mechs, but Comp level?
You'll see PPC Meds, PPC Gauss Heavies (or ERLL Hoppers for extreme range) and PPC Gauss Kodiaks


For Poke decks.

#11 Battlemaster56

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 10:13 AM

Meh won't stop my TBR-A sniper from getting me good scores, and my MAD-5D, EXE's will enjoy the heatsink buff.

#12 Dimento Graven

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 10:15 AM

View PostLupus Aurelius, on 10 December 2016 - 09:55 AM, said:

And yet, you can fire till the cows some home so long as you have ammo with Gauss and NEVER overheat. Firing 2 ERPPCs, of either faction, good luck getting 3 volleys off without overheating, then you have to hide till you can cool off enought to be able to fire them again. Lasers are a bit better that way, and you can mitigate both by chain firing,
Yeah sure, you can "fire till the cows come home" with only 10 ammo per ton available, oh, and you can only do that every 5.75 seconds too, OH, and only a maximum TWO gauss per shot too, let's not forget that. YOU'LL NEVER OVERHEAT, unfortunately the next ANYTHING 'mech that gets you in its own primary range will absolutely out dps you, constantly barraging you with damage between those 5.75 seconds and if they're close enough it will be darned hard to bring those gauss to bare, especially on the more nimble 'mechs.

But hey, having gauss makes you absolutely invulnerable to anything the enemy is dong right?

That's apparently the basis of your statement there... Posted Image

Quote

And you are forgetting the most important thing - Gauss speeds are 2000 meters a second, vs 1300 a second on ERPPCs, they still have a huge advantage to hit due to that, at 15 damage a shot, which is higher than ERPPCs.
At maximum range, yeah, advantage gauss, although let's not forget damage drop off, now when we get to the 700 meters and below distances, that speed difference between gauss and ERPPC is negligible, at most, practically a non-factor for most people.

Quote

Add to that, you can snap shots off and drop to copver immediately, vs lasers that you have to expose for huge ammounts of face time to keep damage on targets. You are standing with your willy in the breeze for a second at least, 1.5 seconds with Clan ERLL, and having to take damage if you try to get full damage on target.
If you're a smaller/faster 'mech carrying one, almost true, you only have the charge duration to "snap" that shot though, and unless you're fighting potatos who are standing still on the battlefield, your enemy is moving making the timing of starting your gauss charge, popping out, aiming, releasing, all within that charge time window a lot more critical when you're talking about a finite quantity of shots. With lasers, so what if I pop out, for the same amount of time as a gauss does, hit you with a portion of the duration, then pop back under cover. I'm still doing damage, and I can do that indefinitely as lasers and ERPPCs don't require ammo.

On any build carrying TWO gauss, speed is extremely limited and "popping" in and out of cover (try it with a KGC or DWF, see how much "popping" you actually do) is a VERY relative thing. On those few 'faster' (again relative) builds that can actually carry two gauss and are better at 'popping' in and out of cover (I'm thinking the Hunchback IIC), they've got EXTREMELY limited ammo, and/or they're probably ONLY carrying gauss.

Quote

Whereas every ballistic other than machine guns, you can snap a shot off, torso twist to mitigate damage, or simply drop into cover.
If you're foolishly standing there the entire laser duration then you're playing in a non-optimal manner. When I use my lasers, I'm very happy to get only a few pulses on the enemy while I'm moving between cover, I'm doing damage, I'm not draining ammo, and as I move from cover to cover, I dissipate my heat. When I observe the people who are REALLY good at piloting their laser boats, I don't see them getting every shot for max duration on the enemy. They get a few touches in and move.

Again, every argument I've seen discussing gauss seems to me to be implying that no one else is moving, the gauss pilot can always hit from maximum optimum range and the enemy isn't allowed to move, or get close, or anything that actually happens in real matches.

#13 Chuck Jager

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 11:21 AM

Boating is the basis of good design. You pick a goal/theme/idea and build your project around that given the materials and limitations of the medium.

I do not think that in MWO we will ever put the genie back in the bottle with sized weapon slots or premade builds to choose from.

If they use the upcoming PVE game as a test bed to then incorporate this game into. You may get some of those limitations. I would not count on it. Also folks will still play the mechs who have the most boatable builds allowed.

Boating is like brushing your teeth before school/work. It makes life easier for you and those around you.

#14 cazidin

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 11:50 AM

Why does PGI continue to nerf the poor Gauss Rifle? What did it ever do?

#15 FupDup

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 11:53 AM

View Postcazidin, on 10 December 2016 - 11:50 AM, said:

Why does PGI continue to nerf the poor Gauss Rifle? What did it ever do?

It gets used in meta/comp builds very frequently because of its blend of traits (range, velocity, damage, heat). It especially synergizes with high-heat weapons because the Gauss is basically no heat.

#16 cazidin

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 11:58 AM

View PostFupDup, on 10 December 2016 - 11:53 AM, said:

It gets used in meta/comp builds very frequently because of its blend of traits (range, velocity, damage, heat). It especially synergizes with high-heat weapons because the Gauss is basically no heat.


So, it's like jumpjets. Continue to nerf until people (especially the meta players) stop using them?

#17 RestosIII

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 01:16 PM

It makes me a bit sad just because it's yet another thing lowering the value of my Shadow Cat Prime lore loadout.

'grumbles about hating the charge-up and ammo restrictions on it'

#18 Requiemking

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 01:27 PM

View PostRestosIII, on 10 December 2016 - 01:16 PM, said:

It makes me a bit sad just because it's yet another thing lowering the value of my Shadow Cat Prime lore loadout.

'grumbles about hating the charge-up and ammo restrictions on it'

You can get about 1.5 more tons of ammo in there, if you are willing to surrender the AMS.

#19 RestosIII

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 01:28 PM

View PostRequiemking, on 10 December 2016 - 01:27 PM, said:

You can get about 1.5 more tons of ammo in there, if you are willing to surrender the AMS.


The Shadow Cat Prime doesn't have an AMS? Maybe you're thinking of the cAP in it.

#20 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 10 December 2016 - 01:29 PM

In my opinion Gauss does seem like its been in the trash bin for a long time now leaving its main role on mechs with huge cooldown quirks or mechs that pair it with PPCs for a super alpha.

I'm mostly biased because I find my dual ERPPC Summoner to be way more effective than a gauss+2PPC Timber Wolf or the gauss+PPC Kodiak. Its mostly due to my playstyle though, I like mobility a lot and snap shots and dodging, gauss charge kinda kills the momentum for me. I'd love to see its charge get removed, they could add it into the cooldown too, but that'd probably make the gauss+PPC combos way more powerful which might outweigh making the single gauss mediums without huge cooldown quirks out there more viable.





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