122 replies to this topic

[Suko]

I'm seeing a lot of threads claiming that Clans are "OP" compared to IS mechs. As someone who pilots mechs from both sides of the tech divide, I personally feel that both mechs have their advantages and disadvantages.

Sure, the Clan XL engine is amazing. It gives a mech lots of free tonnage with no real down-sides (compared to IS XL). On the other hand, I find almost ALL the clan weapons inferior to their IS counterparts (except for GR and PPC, which is why it's so prevalent). Lasers especially. After playing IS mechs for a few weeks, I hop into my Timber and realize just how bad the burn time is on most clan lasers compared to IS. This severely limits my ability to "twist" away damage, especially when getting hit by IS Large Pulse or AC shots. This leads me to the second point...

IS mechs tank better Clans. Yeah, I know that IS mechs running XL don't tank great, but a STD engine IS mech seems to just live forever. I am constantly amazed how long I can survive in my Marauder. In fact, I just had a match the other day where I survived at 16% health. Not too shabby. Maybe I'm a bad pilot, but when I'm running my Clan mechs I am forced to face-tank more to keep my lasers burning on-target for the full damage. This face-tanking allows the IS dakka and pulse lasers to go straight through my CT. Brawling in a non-dakka boat Clan mech is rough. This leads me to my third point...

IS Mechs run WAY cooler. Most of my clan mechs can fire 2 alphas before I'm red-lined. It takes a significantly longer time to cool back down compared to most IS mechs I run. In my personal opinion, Clan mechs (except the sm laser boats) just can't brawl for crap. They overheat fast and can't cool off. Any time an IS mech pushes in close, they will have the advantage (doesn't apply against Clan dakka boats, but that is essentially the Dire Wolf and KDK). Even then, Clans still lack the pin-point advantage the IS has.

I realize that this post seems one-sided, but the point I'm trying to make is that I don't think the Clan vs IS balance is so out of whack as people make it seem. I'm not a great pilot, but I'm not a scrub either. I am not a loyalist; I don't have a hard on for Clan or IS exclusively. If you take a look at my hanger, I have a wide variety of both IS and Clan tech. I'm honestly just curious why so many people keep claiming that "CLAN IS OP". It doesn't seem accurate from what I'm seeing in my matches and in my personal piloting experience.

Now, that all said, I mostly only play QP and Group Queue. Are a lot of the "CLAN IS OP" complaints coming from FP players? If the entire opposing team is Clan or IS, I can see how that'll definitely leave a major psychological impression on a player compared to the mixed-tech games I play.

I'm sure many didn't even get to this last paragraph before they started typing out why I'm wrong and how bad I am at this game. But if you made it this far, you have my thanks. This is just my opinion and observations of things. I'm not claiming to be "right" or that balance isn't needed here and there. I'm mostly looking for feedback from people on why they think things are out of balance regarding Clan/IS. To me it seems like a pretty decent balance while making the two tech trees feel "different".

P.S. My entire post isn't even going to try and address IIC mechs. I don't own any (yet), so it is hard for me to make reliable observations on them. I get the impression that they are a bit too strong, but I also don't cringe in fear whenever I see one.

[FireStoat]

For a lot of players getting into this game there is a rush of nostalgia from their table top gaming days of Battletech. I'm one of them. My absolute favorite mech was the Marauder sporting Endo + XL Engine with 2 ppc's, 2 medium lasers, 2 lrm 5's, a gauss rifle, and triple strength myomer.

Naturally when I started playing this game not long ago I went straight for the Marauder with the intent to recreate the build as close as I could - namely the PPC's and Gauss as the core. An XL engine was needed (which I expected) and of course the readers will instantly understand how depressed I was with the table top rules being used for XL engines in a game that doesn't use random hit location charts, and goes off of first person shooter mechanics instead.

The truth of the situation dawned on me and I went Clan instead. It really was that simple. I had nearly no exposure to the forums or the gripes or comparisons or salt over the issue (or other issues) - It was a matter of me trying something I used to play in an environment that makes it a horrible idea. It's a matter of preference and settling on not what the game doesn't offer, but rather, what it does offer me.

Yes, I'm quite happy with the Marauder IIC launching tomorrow. I get my nostalgia back without it being hamstrung by poor game design choices.

[Bud Crue]

Overall balance is not out of wack. But the outliers, particularly at the meta level of play make it seem far more "out of wack". To wit: The Kodiak -3 is still the best mech in the game. The only mech that comes close to it, at least in leader board performance is the Dire. On the opposite end, is the Arctic Cheetah and the Jenner IIc. In the middle...

Yes there are good to even pretty good IS mechs, but the truly superb mechs are mostly clanners -at least according to the leader boards- and at least what I have seen watching competitive matches (I am a terribad and don't claim first hand knowledge, but I have eyes). That gives rise to the perception that the clanners are "OP" or at least that balance currently favors them.

Just my 2 cents.

[Elessar]

They definitely are ... not only due to equipment that, for example, costs less slots than IS equipment (for example DHS ... just 2 slots per DHS instead of 3 slots) ... but also due to the mix and match available in Omnimechs with their Omnislots (at least with those that aren't hampered by a suboptimal chassis).

You also see it well in Faction Play, when Omnimechs stand against IS mechs and, at least in invasion/defending matches usually even the best battles end with a wipe, with a KDR of 1:2 or 1:3 to the advantage of the clans.

I definitely would prefer if (as it should be according to lore), clans attack with less mechs than the IS (for example 10:12 ... 2 stars against 1 company)

[BluefireMW]

Elessar, on 12 December 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

They definitely are ... not only due to equipment that, for example, costs less slots than IS equipment (for example DHS ... just 2 slots per DHS instead of 3 slots) ... but also due to the mix and match available in Omnimechs with their Omnislots (at least with those that aren't hampered by a suboptimal chassis).

You also see it well in Faction Play, when Omnimechs stand against IS mechs and, at least in invasion/defending matches usually even the best battles end with a wipe, with a KDR of 1:2 or 1:3 to the advantage of the clans.

I definitely would prefer if (as it should be according to lore), clans attack with less mechs than the IS (for example 10:12 ... 2 stars against 1 company)

It is funny to read this lines.
It ist not enough that Clans needed to be nerved, no... you want them to be less in numbers, too.
As a circumstand i yesterday played with some clan players with short range outfits, which had not even a chance to meet with the IS Quirked long range counterparts.
But you are right, it's of course, that clans are so much OP.
I guess it is time, to see, that it's not the comparison between clan and is, what counts at present. It's just the quality of the players. The balance was never as close as it is at present. Not perfect, but close.
The reason, why clan players are often better than the is players, it's because it's needed. Clan Mechs need more skill to be played well.

[TheBlackMegadeus]

This sounds to me like a pilot issue not a mech issue. The kodiak does have some nice holes to shoot through, but you can do that with any other mech at any other terrain box.

[Elessar]

BluefireMW, on 12 December 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

It is funny to read this lines.
It ist not enough that Clans needed to be nerved, no... you want them to be less in numbers, too.
As a circumstand i yesterday played with some clan players with short range outfits, which had not even a chance to meet with the IS Quirked long range counterparts.
But you are right, it's of course, that clans are so much OP.
I guess it is time, to see, that it's not the comparison between clan and is, what counts at present. It's just the quality of the players. The balance was never as close as it is at present. Not perfect, but close.
The reason, why clan players are often better than the is players, it's because it's needed. Clan Mechs need more skill to be played well.

I have no doubt that you, being on the constantly winning side in faction warfare, want to believe that it is all about superior skills and not about superior equipment

Edited by Elessar, 12 December 2016 - 04:30 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Elessar, on 12 December 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

They definitely are ... not only due to equipment that, for example, costs less slots than IS equipment (for example DHS ... just 2 slots per DHS instead of 3 slots) ... but also due to the mix and match available in Omnimechs with their Omnislots (at least with those that aren't hampered by a suboptimal chassis).

You also see it well in Faction Play, when Omnimechs stand against IS mechs and, at least in invasion/defending matches usually even the best battles end with a wipe, with a KDR of 1:2 or 1:3 to the advantage of the clans.

I definitely would prefer if (as it should be according to lore), clans attack with less mechs than the IS (for example 10:12 ... 2 stars against 1 company)

But a Clan mech will have to mount more DHS than IS mechs due to the additional heat Clan weapons produce.

I compared a Clan ER ML to a IS ML in detail once. It produces 150% the heat of an IS laser. What this means is both weigh 1 ton and take up one slot but the Clan ER ML will require an extra DHS to deal with the heat so in essence the Clan ER ML weighs 2 tons and takes up 3 crits. Now it is not quite that straight forward but the reality is a typical clan mech will have to mount something like 15-20% more DHS to cool the same tonnage of weapons as an IS mech will. Things like this are some of the things that people neglect to think about or admit exist when they are taking about Clan Vs IS balance.

The reality is Clan and IS mechs overall are pretty evenly balanced when you consider all the mechs in the game yet alot of people don't want to admit that. Even the KDK-3 isn't quite a superior as people like to make it out to be though I am not going to deny it is probably the best Assault mech in the game through by how much of a margin, I am not really sure.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 12 December 2016 - 04:40 PM.

[1453 R]

Bud's got the kernel of it, really. Ultracompetitive play, which is highly publicized and held up as The Thing Everyone Should Want To Do, heavily amplifies even minor balance irregularities that'd make no real difference in Puglandia. This competitive bias combines with ForumWarrioring, which always places a huge (over)emphasis on raw numbers without corresponding usage data or in fact any other mitigating factors, to paint a picture of a game teetering on the brink of collapse when in actuality, things are generally okay save for a few lingering issues nobody's figured out a good solution for yet.

As an aggregate whole, the tech bases aren't too far off. Knock a few Clan beams down, figure out some way to address the cXL issue without A.) killing it or B.) SuperMegaUltraBuffing the iXL, do something with the Endo/Ferro issue on both sides, and we'd be pretty damn close to spot on. Nobody buys it, though, because the paper stats make the Clans out to be much bigger tigers than many of them are.

But those posts advocating "we're actually doing fairly all right" don't generate tons of 'likes' or multiple pages of boredom-alleviating nerdrage here, so they don't get any traction. Oh well.

[Yellonet]

Ah, the common misconception that the longer burn times of Clan lasers makes IS lasers better.
In fact, many of the clan lasers will make the same or more damage for the same burn time with a few exception, but they all have a higher potential and they all have longer range which makes a significant difference.

[Sjorpha]

SIgnificant advantage to Clan tech right now.

Balance was much closer in January before the rescale and all the nerfs to quirks.

[Trollfeed]

Viktor Drake, on 12 December 2016 - 04:40 PM, said:

But a Clan mech will have to mount more DHS than IS mechs due to the additional heat Clan weapons produce.

I compared a Clan ER ML to a IS ML in detail once. It produces 150% the heat of an IS laser. What this means is both weigh 1 ton and take up one slot but the Clan ER ML will require an extra DHS to deal with the heat so in essence the Clan ER ML weighs 2 tons and takes up 3 crits. Now it is not quite that straight forward but the reality is a typical clan mech will have to mount something like 15-20% more DHS to cool the same tonnage of weapons as an IS mech will. Things like this are some of the things that people neglect to think about or admit exist when they are taking about Clan Vs IS balance.

The reality is Clan and IS mechs overall are pretty evenly balanced when you consider all the mechs in the game yet alot of people don't want to admit that. Even the KDK-3 isn't quite a superior as people like to make it out to be though I am not going to deny it is probably the best Assault mech in the game through by how much of a margin, I am not really sure.

You might want to note that CERML isn't a weapon you should compare to IS medium laser. I don't really get why people don't understand that equal weapon to CERML from IS side is large laser. 5 CERML pretty much equals 4 IS large lasers with less max range, but for 15 tons less weight you know?
If you want to compare some clan laser to IS meds, you take clan small lasers that have about same stats except 70m less range, but they aren't used that much because everyone will pick those 4 large laser equivalents for 5 tons because they're just so good.

And about heat. I have noticed that my clan mechs run about same or cooler under same range bracket while doing more damage as their IS compatriots because they just can cram more heatsinks. Please do build IS laser mech that has optimum at 450m range and has 68 points of alpha and can fire it two times in succession. Take note too that their gauss is 3 tons lighter and missile weapons weight half of inner sphere comparables.

Clan mechs have enormous advantages because combination of non fragile XL engine, lighter weapons and everything taking a lot less space so you can really cram in those weapons and heatsinks. I found playing that new kit fox hero extra hilarious because it can carry similar firepower to IS heavies.

Edited by Trollfeed, 12 December 2016 - 05:22 PM.

[El Bandito]

Suko, on 12 December 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

I'm seeing a lot of threads claiming that Clans are "OP" compared to IS mechs.

Ok, you need start with fixing your first sentence. I am on the forums daily and I do not hear a lot of thread saying "Clans are OP". I do see people (myself included) saying "Clan tech is generally better than IS tech and that needs to be balanced".

So there.

[BCAW]

BluefireMW, on 12 December 2016 - 03:51 PM, said:

It is funny to read this lines.
It ist not enough that Clans needed to be nerved, no... you want them to be less in numbers, too.
As a circumstand i yesterday played with some clan players with short range outfits, which had not even a chance to meet with the IS Quirked long range counterparts.
But you are right, it's of course, that clans are so much OP.
I guess it is time, to see, that it's not the comparison between clan and is, what counts at present. It's just the quality of the players. The balance was never as close as it is at present. Not perfect, but close.
The reason, why clan players are often better than the is players, it's because it's needed. Clan Mechs need more skill to be played well.

*Breathes deeply

Let me say this first: I tried to read through everything you posted while keeping a straight face. Suffice to say I did not succeed. I must thank you for the laugh. Also, no, I am not a freebirth stravag. All the mechs I own are Clan.

Regarding the little skirmish your group did using short-ranged Clan mechs vs long-range IS mechs. Long-range weaponry is currently superior to short-ranged weaponry at the moment, with the meta being PPFLD and dakka. The range advantage is more than enough to offset the advantages of Clan tech, which really shows how much of an advantage range is these days; but that's another topic.

Regarding your statement that Clan mechs take more skill. That is false, excluding certain underperformers like the Mist Lynx. And here's why:

- Clan XL. Being able to survive a side torso lost while using an XL meaning most Clan mechs are faster and/or heavier-hitting than their IS counterparts. That is an advantage. Sure, an IS STD can survive with just the CT, but one, there aren't many effective zombies out there, and two, mechs with STD engines are slower and/or don't punch as hard.

- Clan has better endo and ferro. This allows the mechs that are able to take them have both plenty of available tonnage and available slots. Meanwhile IS mechs can generally only afford to take one, but not both, resulting in generally having less tonnage and slots available compared to Clan mechs within identical weight classes.

- Clan equipment in general takes less tonnage and critical slots, which, combined with Clan XL and Clan endo and ferro, means they can pack more of everything than IS mechs within identical weight classes.

- Clan weapons deal more damage, and generally have longer range. Combined with the point above, means they deal more damage with less tonnage and slot investment than their IS counterparts; yes, the lasers generate more heat, but keep in mind that Clan DHS takes only 2 slots compared to IS's 3, and that Clan mechs generally have more free tonnage to play with. This means most of them are capable of packing enough heatsinks to offset the heat disadvantage. And longer range is an advantage, as your experience have shown. IS weapons simply cannot match the tonnage to damage ratio of Clan weapons.

In practice, all these advantages means that in general, Clan mechs have far more ability to punch well above their weight when compared to the IS. Don't believe me? Look at what are the best mechs in each category right now:
-Lights: Cheetah, Locust
-Mediums: Hunchie IIC, Stormcrow, Nova, Huntsman
-Heavy: Timber, Night Gyr, arguably ERPPC Summoner
-Assault: Kodiak

Given all these advantages the Clan have, and the list of best mechs right now, I do not think it is fair to say that the Clans take more skill to play well. Again, I say this as someone who plays almost exclusively Clan mechs. But I've no illusion of the Clans needing more skills. I know how good the mechs I use are compared to IS mechs, and I've nothing but respect for those who invest in their IS mechs and are capable of putting up a good fight with them.

[Baulven]

Yellonet, on 12 December 2016 - 04:50 PM, said:

Ah, the common misconception that the longer burn times of Clan lasers makes IS lasers better.
In fact, many of the clan lasers will make the same or more damage for the same burn time with a few exception, but they all have a higher potential and they all have longer range which makes a significant difference.

Shorter burn time allows you to put more damage on the target with less chance of them rolling it. Why do you think clan small pulse is so popular? Medium pulse would be highly used as well, except they run ungodly hot even with maxed heat sinks (just over two alphas for shut down and getting internal damage.)

Sjorpha, on 12 December 2016 - 05:00 PM, said:

SIgnificant advantage to Clan tech right now.

Balance was much closer in January before the rescale and all the nerfs to quirks.

Balance was in favor of IS mechs (albeit not by much) before the rescale. For example the Oxide was an absolute monster but anyone saying it was overpowered got beset on all sides as salty teared idiots. After the rescale it is simply a tanky light compared to the pre rescale version.

[Aiden Skye]

Elessar, on 12 December 2016 - 03:39 PM, said:

They definitely are ... not only due to equipment that, for example, costs less slots than IS equipment (for example DHS ... just 2 slots per DHS instead of 3 slots) ... but also due to the mix and match available in Omnimechs with their Omnislots (at least with those that aren't hampered by a suboptimal chassis).

You also see it well in Faction Play, when Omnimechs stand against IS mechs and, at least in invasion/defending matches usually even the best battles end with a wipe, with a KDR of 1:2 or 1:3 to the advantage of the clans.

I definitely would prefer if (as it should be according to lore), clans attack with less mechs than the IS (for example 10:12 ... 2 stars against 1 company)

Funny thing, in all my CW matches griniding out clan ranks, most games were a loss to IS. 10 vs 12 is a terrible idea get it out of your head.

[visionGT4]

Baulven, on 12 December 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Shorter burn time allows you to put more damage on the target with less chance of them rolling it. Why do you think clan small pulse is so popular? Medium pulse would be highly used as well, except they run ungodly hot even with maxed heat sinks (just over two alphas for shut down and getting internal damage.)

For the same beam duration, clan lasers actually do equal or greater damage than the IS equivalent.

=========================================================

Ton for ton clan tech is completely superior to anything IS can field. This fact is undisputable, what is currently disputed is how this vast technical disparity can be balanced without making tech levels exactly the same (thus boring).

My opinion in order of preference
1> remove clan tech from the game completely
2> make clan tech P2W
3> give clan pilots a -100% entitlement quirk on signup. This is so they can attempt to comprehend that clubbing seals is not cool

[El Bandito]

Baulven, on 12 December 2016 - 09:49 PM, said:

Why do you think clan small pulse is so popular?

Cause CSPL is actually worth its 1 ton weight, unlike the garbage that is IS SPL.

[Ex Atlas Overlord]

Quote

Suko, on 12 December 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

Sure, the Clan XL engine is amazing.

So clan engines >> IS engines.

Clans 1 / IS 0

Suko, on 12 December 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

IS mechs tank better Clans.

Otherwise known as "IS mechs take more damage to kill while the clan mech is shooting from outside of the IS mechs range, and then the IS mech dies because as you've already stated the clan mechs are also faster and can dictate range of engagement"

Clans 2 / IS 0

Suko, on 12 December 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

IS Mechs run WAY cooler.

which yet again means nothing when clans dictate the range, and have can take zero damage in return while doing it.

Clans 3 / IS 0

Suko, on 12 December 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

Are a lot of the "CLAN IS OP" complaints coming from FP players?

1) I wouldn't be surprised.

2) And yes, having the techs divided evenly does a very good job of highlighting the across the board advantages held by clan tech.

Suko, on 12 December 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

P.S. My entire post isn't even going to try and address IIC mechs. I don't own any (yet), so it is hard for me to make reliable observations on them.

I seem to remember the IIC versions of mechs completely crushing their IS versions in every tournament ish thing they've had.

[Dimento Graven]

Suko, on 12 December 2016 - 02:11 PM, said:

I'm seeing a lot of threads claiming that Clans are "OP" compared to IS mechs. As someone who pilots mechs from both sides of the tech divide, I personally feel that both mechs have their advantages and disadvantages.

Sure, the Clan XL engine is amazing. It gives a mech lots of free tonnage with no real down-sides (compared to IS XL). On the other hand, I find almost ALL the clan weapons inferior to their IS counterparts (except for GR and PPC, which is why it's so prevalent). Lasers especially. After playing IS mechs for a few weeks, I hop into my Timber and realize just how bad the burn time is on most clan lasers compared to IS. This severely limits my ability to "twist" away damage, especially when getting hit by IS Large Pulse or AC shots. This leads me to the second point...

I really TRIED to keep an open mind on this, I really did, but this is where you lost me.

I'm sorry but what rule, function, or bug in the weapon system limits your ability to twist?

More specifically, because that question may confuse some: Why do you feel you HAVE to sit for a weapon's entire burn duration, while being shot at?

Next, cherry/nitpicking picking a feature-vs-feature is disingenuous, it's the totality of the systems you need to pay attention to and their effect on how 'mechs are built and played.

The TOTALITY of Clan tech and advantages allow darn near ALL their 'mechs to enjoy the "Trifecta": Fire Power+Speed+Survivability.

The IS has very few 'mechs that can enjoy more than two of those, and even when they DO get two of them, typically they're still compromises that put most IS 'mechs at significant disadvantage to their similarly weighted Clan counterparts.

I feel BCAW did a pretty good job describing most of the systems as a whole, here's a few items to expand on:

Clans get 'free' CASE in EVERY component location. The IS can't even load CASE in EVERY slot even if they wanted. So even if an IS pilot were to use CASE in the slots he can, he has to give up tonnage and slots to equip it. This is yet another instance where the IS pilot must continue the "Trifecta" compromise. Does he just not equip it, and risk a lowered Survivability, OR, does he load less weapons and ammo, sacrificing Fire Power, OR, does he equip an XL (if there side torso slots available) which again reduces his survivability, OR, does he equip a lower power Standard engine, which significantly reduces his Speed.

Clans longed complained about quirks, but of course EVERY Clan 'mech can PURCHASE quirks in the form of the TC. All the bonuses of TC's especially when using ballistics REALLY makes a SIGNIFICANT difference. Yes, some Clanners might point to the IS CC, HOWEVER, the CC doesn't provide all the same benefits of the Clan TC, >>AND<< not every IS 'mech is allowed to equip the CC, in fact, VERY FEW are capable of it, AND, unlike the Clans, there is only ONE 3 ton option available, where the Clans if they've got a few tons left over and an extra slot or two can equip one and gain those benefits. The extra crit chances alone are worth it.

Here's what I know, from personal experience:

A dual gauss, dual ERML, Medium Class Hunchback IIC performs AT LEAST AS WELL AS a dual gauss, dual ML, Heavy Class Jaeger. The HBK IIC with a ClanXL engine can out perform the JGR in speed and survivability, and due to the extended range and higher damage of the Clan ERML, can generate more damage.

A dual gauss, dual ERLL Heavy Class Night Gyr performs AT LEAST AS WELL AS a dual gauss, dual ERLL, Assault Class King Crab. The NGR with a ClanXL can out perform the KGC in speed and survivability, and due to the extended range and higher damage of the Clan ERLL, can generate more damage.

These are facts that I have personally done hours and hours and hours of testing on, there can be no dispute. I played each 'mech as well and as hard as I can. I "prefer" IS 'mechs, but in the Clan 'mechs, playing in weight classes under my typical IS builds, I can easily match my performance in the IS 'mech if not SIGNIFICANTLY beat it.

For the most part, ignoring the extreme outliers, the totality of ALL the combined benefits of Clan Tech overwhelm the totality of the IS benefits, by a significant margin.

I have no idea what must be done, but SOMETHING, needs to be done.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 12 December 2016 - 10:56 PM.